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merle
119K views 161 replies 29 participants last post by  hell no they wont go 
#1 ·
ok thanks to Cane i am now aware of the fact that blue was not an original apbt color but a staffy color. so it has been pretty much bred into the breed but there is still some amount of staffy blood in a blue pitbull...i'm assuming very very little if the staffy hasnt been in the bloodline for a looong while.


any way take the merle gene people are breeding what they call rare merle pitbulls (but its actually american bullies.) do you think merle will ever become an exeptable breed color if people keep breedin american bullies and american pits with catahoulas like it has been with the blue in apbts i mean i personally would call a blue apbt a purebred apbt if its blue as long as it comes from a reputable kennel and a staffy blood hasnt been in the bloodline since the foundation dogs (this would have to be a kennel that has not just recently been established. i personally do not think this will happen because it comes with health issues but how do you all feel is it possible merle gene will ever become an exeptable breed standard i believe i the ukc breed standards it says merle gene is not acceptable.
 
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#29 ·
This article is based on biasness, opinions and lies. Notice they use an obvious impure picture to prove the point. Maybe I will say there is no such thing as a brindle Pit Bull and show a picture of a tiger after all brindles must be mixed with them to get such coloration. I ask where is the "proof".
 
#3 ·
Interesting article, I just wonder how this applies to other breeds. Traits such as odd-eye are not a fault in other breeds, which leads me to believe that if this odd eye really affects vision with a medical condition, it would be a fault, as an unhealthy animal can not be shown, and should not be bred. The merle pattern itself is acceptable in many breeds, and is not a fault, or associated with genetic ailments. Is it something about the APBT that makes this pattern a health concern? I know that many merle APBTs do have health issues, but couldn't this be as easily attributed to poor breeding practices as to the genetic pattern? I am sure there are healthy merle APBTs out there.

I am not in any way saying that the color should be acceptable for conformation, since it came by hanging papers, and therefore this behavior should not be encouraged, but I think that the health concerns come from the breeding practices of the BYBs that create these pups, not the color itself. Also, I firmly believe it is possible for the canine "slippery genome" to be responsible for a spontaneous new color, but this is improbable in the case of merle, since if someone believes they have a fluke full blooded merle APBT, wouldn't it be advantageous for them to have the dog genetically tested, screened, and its line followed to see if it is a natural occurance in the breed, and not the result of a mix and hanging papers? I feel that responsible breeders would welcome the scrutiny, and since this hasn't happened, to my knowledge, no responsible breeder has produced a merle in their line that they can say 100% has no other breed crossed in.

Bottom line, breed standards exist for a reason, and if you feel you can legitimately question the standard, go ahead, many people do, but be prepared to have to prove your integrity beyond a shadow of a doubt.

That's just my 2 cents.
 
#32 ·
Interesting article, I just wonder how this applies to other breeds. Traits such as odd-eye are not a fault in other breeds, which leads me to believe that if this odd eye really affects vision with a medical condition, it would be a fault, as an unhealthy animal can not be shown, and should not be bred. The merle pattern itself is acceptable in many breeds, and is not a fault, or associated with genetic ailments. Is it something about the APBT that makes this pattern a health concern? I know that many merle APBTs do have health issues, but couldn't this be as easily attributed to poor breeding practices as to the genetic pattern? I am sure there are healthy merle APBTs out there.

I am not in any way saying that the color should be acceptable for conformation, since it came by hanging papers, and therefore this behavior should not be encouraged, but I think that the health concerns come from the breeding practices of the BYBs that create these pups, not the color itself. Also, I firmly believe it is possible for the canine "slippery genome" to be responsible for a spontaneous new color, but this is improbable in the case of merle, since if someone believes they have a fluke full blooded merle APBT, wouldn't it be advantageous for them to have the dog genetically tested, screened, and its line followed to see if it is a natural occurance in the breed, and not the result of a mix and hanging papers? I feel that responsible breeders would welcome the scrutiny, and since this hasn't happened, to my knowledge, no responsible breeder has produced a merle in their line that they can say 100% has no other breed crossed in.

Bottom line, breed standards exist for a reason, and if you feel you can legitimately question the standard, go ahead, many people do, but be prepared to have to prove your integrity beyond a shadow of a doubt.

That's just my 2 cents.
I agree with your top paragraph. The one below however seems that you have been manipulated into believing such. Where is there proof the gene trait actually came from hanging papers? Maybe this is a convenient lie to back up the case, which Scott Dowd has presented in his article that seems to have sparked the whole debate on the Merle in the first place. One lie to support another does not make truth. The current standards the UKC and ADBA currently have are relatively new. Older standards DID NOT EXCLUDE Merles.

My question is why have a changing standard?

I would say also that no breeder can be 100% on the purity of their dog even with papers. All breeds were developed from a mix in the past. Dogs used to be categorized more by function before registries existed. Along with this over time came conformity to a specific look. This conformity of look is what began the establishment of breed (any breed).

All the negative traits that are heaped on the Merle can just as easily be heaped (fairly) onto inbreeding practices, which is prove-able. Calling it a defect is simply an excuse used to villainize it to validate changing the standard or support unhelathy breeding practices. As you said no problems with other breeds who have this trait. This was a lie set forth by Scott Dowd as commissioned by the AKC and UKC simply to bolster their own personal preferences. I have had a blue eyed Merle and can definitively say it had no vision problems.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I dont buy into what cane says staffy came from apbt so they had to get the gene from somewhere.... Blue is an apbt color IMO. im not here to argue about that though.

As far as Merle i believe it either comes from an outside source such as catahoulas or it is due to massive inbreeding for imperfect traits. It shouldnt be allowed as an acceptable coat coloring.

I remember seeing a video i forgot what it was it was a bad one like hood dawgs or something like that. This guy had a litter of puppies and they were 7 generations of inbreeding (why he did this ...because hes ignorant.) he thought his litter was the :poop: he had 5 puppies all with fluffy tails HAHAHA two had different colored eyes, 1 was merle, and the other was jsut super scrawny. He was gonna keep the merle and the different color eyed ones to be inbred again. It made me sad jsut watching it. He has had 7 generations of experience and hes still and idiot. saying his bloodline was "redboy/ jocko talkaboutum"
 
#21 ·
I dont buy into what cane says staffy came from apbt so they had to get the gene from somewhere.... Blue is an apbt color IMO. im not here to argue about that though.
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one thing you cant do is provide a pedigree or photo of a pure bred blue apbt with out any am staff in its pedigree,that ill bet my life on!,
As far as i can gather its a trait inherited through tight inbreeding and line breeding and exploited for $,despite the possibility it was inherited through the blue paul or even farther back through ancient molosser blood via the old bulldog[bullenbeisser].these are all possabilitys.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Blue can also show up in apbt breedings as well without staff blood mixed in ... The color Blue is a dilute of black... It is possible for 2 black game-dogs or a dog who carries that gene without ANY staffy blood mixed in to throw a blue dog. It's not as common as most people would think but it does happen so why I agree with cane to a certain extent .. I also know for a fact that a black dog can throw a blue dog.... Genetics do not lie ...
 
#6 ·
actually breeds where merle is acceptable like aussies and catouhulas and whatever other breed may have merle do come across health problems on behalf of the merle gene. its not just the apbt.

merle has never been in the breed nore ever even consider to be mixed in with this breed not until recently when bybs decided to mic calahoutas and pits to get a new funky color to deem "rare" and make money out of it. it was probobly just an expiriment in the first place to see if these new odd colored pits would be good enough to pass off as a rare purebred and make dough off of it. if you truely have a pure bred american pitbull terrier from the purist bloodlines you can find there is no way merle would ever show up.
 
#8 ·
What I'm saying is that it is unlikely that this trait spontaneously developed on its own, but it can't be ruled out, and if someone thinks their APBT developed this gene without crossbreeding, they should come forward and let the kennel clubs study them and decide, and since that doesn't seem to be happening, no one feels THAT confident that their merle is a full APBT. I just feel that the evolution of dogs is so peculiar, that nothing can be ruled out, look at the Lundehund, its unimaginable that this dog developed, but its terrain called for changes, and its genome obliged.
Norwegian Lundehund - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I doubt that this has happened with merle and the APBT, but rather than argue with someone who swears they have a pure APBT merle, I would think its easier just to tell them if they feel that strongly, petition the registries, open their lines and kennel to scrutiny etc. I'm saying it can happen, it most likely just hasn't.
 
#9 ·
Yes the dogs "double stacked" genes or whatever they are allows them to change much more from generation to generation. I would bet the Lundehund toes are because of a very small bredding population somewhere in its history. Alot of genetic abnormalities happen like that when there is a "bottle kneck" in the genetic population.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Merle is not necessarily an American Bully color. Just because a dog is mixed doesn't make it Ambully. I think it is very possible that Merle is a recessive gene brought out due to inbreeding especially because of the health issues that follow. But because of the health issues it is a color we don't need ( sad to me because I think it is gorgeous). As for Blue Sadie is right it is a dilute of black and very well can come from APBT lines not just Amstaff lines.

Here are some pics of Merle because I know alot of newer people don't know the color.
To add this guy raises Merles and has never had any of the health issues that usually come with this color. Tho he also doesn't breed Merle to Merle I believe.


Tocho Blue Merle

Raja Chocolate Merle


Wanted to add Merle in the APBT is more a pattern than a color The blue part or chocolate or whatever color just goes with the pattern.

So my question is is it likely that a pattern has been brought out from inbreeding?
 
#13 ·
oh i have seen plenty of merle apbts. i was never suggesting it was an american bully thing or that mixed breeding between bully breeds and or bully breed none bully breed mixes = american bully they just = a mutt that was bred into a cruel cruel world. thats if you were directing that torwards me or just generally
 
#12 · (Edited)
Spots/patches

I edited out the Merle in danes I was thinking about Harlequin that color is hard to breed lol.
 
#18 ·
My friend has a merle pit that is registered with UKC and yes I am sure the papers are hung BUT she has never ever had any health problems and her pit is now at age 13 and still thriving. There are so many breeds out there with the merle gene, who knows what is mixed with what. But I don't believe all the health problems that ppl claim that they all have. :)
 
#30 ·
You are correct. Most problems attributed to the merle and health are actually the problems associated with inbreeding. So why not speak out against inbreeding instead of choosing a scape goat. I guess trying to get traction on that issue would be much harder but since when is taking the easy way out better than honesty.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Cane here is a Blue game dog from Mexico this dog from what I could tell goes back to the crenshaw stuff .. I couldn't find any staffy blood in this blue dog .... This dog is the real deal .. I know it's very common for blue dogs to have some staff blood in them I will not dispute that .. However in some occasions a black apbt or a dog who carries the gene can throw a blue dog... It happens because blue is a dilute of black.. This is how it pops up in the apbt. I am not saying it's a common thing for a blue dog to show up if your not purposely breeding for the color blue .. But it does happen... And this dog here is a prime example of it

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=231848
 
#25 ·
Uhm the rest of the bottom side is missing after the first four gens.

I went way back through the top though, no obvious staffies. Its of course a color that could have presented in the APBT all on its own, since its just a dilluted black through lines getting too tight.

BTW did anyone notices there is a BLUE dog on the COVER of the ADBA Gazette this spring?
 
#27 ·
I am really trying to learn and am very curious about the breed, and more specifically, my new pit.

Never heard of the "merle" thing before. It is very confusing.

Does this mean that if my pit has any spots on him at all that he is a merle? What if he is white and red with mainly large patches of red but a few small areas of red kind of mixed in? Are any small spots at all considered merle, or does it just depend? He also has what appear to be freckles on his girth by his "private", but they are large in diameter like 1 inch around.....

Basically, I guess what I am trying to ask is are pitbulls not supposed to have any spots at all?
 
#28 ·
Pits can have spots. look at the pictures of merle that are posted that is the color that is not allowed.
 
#31 ·
ok thanks to Cane i am now aware of the fact that blue was not an original apbt color but a staffy color. so it has been pretty much bred into the breed but there is still some amount of staffy blood in a blue pitbull...i'm assuming very very little if the staffy hasnt been in the bloodline for a looong while.

any way take the merle gene people are breeding what they call rare merle pitbulls (but its actually american bullies.) do you think merle will ever become an exeptable breed color if people keep breedin american bullies and american pits with catahoulas like it has been with the blue in apbts i mean i personally would call a blue apbt a purebred apbt if its blue as long as it comes from a reputable kennel and a staffy blood hasnt been in the bloodline since the foundation dogs (this would have to be a kennel that has not just recently been established. i personally do not think this will happen because it comes with health issues but how do you all feel is it possible merle gene will ever become an exeptable breed standard i believe i the ukc breed standards it says merle gene is not acceptable.
That is a new standard by the UKC. Same with the ADBA. Before this they were accepted. I can note older standards where Merle was perfectly acceptable. I can also show you where it has been admitted as having a history within the breed. Some people are leaders and some people are followers so when your registry has you by the balls and says no, what other choice is there but to accept their standards no matter how often they change.
 
#37 ·
I used to own a merle (personally would never breed them but I do think they are cute and as good a pet as anything else out there) With that being said you are right you start seeing serious issues when folks start breeding merle to merle anyone that knows anything about chis and the other breeds that carry the gene know that health issues only rise when you neglect to take things into consideration and bred double merles etc.
 
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