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what makes a bloodline 101

17K views 60 replies 9 participants last post by  bradbenjamin1984 
#1 · (Edited)
According to the adba the pitbull world is a little mixed up on what is actually a bloodline. Now the general rule is no single dog can create a bloodline. this is because simply put no dog can be bred back to itself. this means that any offsprings dna is not 100% the same as the dog given credit for the bloodline.if it was it would be a clone hence cloning. SO we as lovers of great dogs love to immortalize them by stamping a bloodline with their names.take honeybunch for instance. every time they bred this bitch she threw game dogs.they couldnt breed her wrong. she threw jeep. who according to the adba and "nature" isnt even a bloodline.thats right jeep isnt a bloodline friends-hes 25%carver,25%boudreaux,50% loposay cross.my argument is this-the pitbull world should focus on giving credit to the breeder/breeders who have spent thier lives raising breeding and creating these fine dogs than any one single dog.thats my 2cents. ive got 98 more cents left. anybody reading this?check out www.adbadog.com/p_pdetails.asp?fspid=39
 
#2 ·
Good post, not new news.. however:

Hammonds, Colby, Boudreaux.. all families all strains.. Colby is a step above the others because it is a bloodline as well that most all APBTs are founded in. Boudreaux is close his entire line is built on 1 dog bred to his daughters and neices of dble bred litters this one dog is Blind Billy.. Then he used dogs down from Blind Billy.. Yes Jeep was scatter bred and that Loposay was actually pure colby dogs. Loposay ran two strains. Colby was his most used. When saying Loposay you must underline as to which of his two strains. Jeep dogs have been stacked and inbred to the max and they have bred themselves into a corner for the most part aiming for pure jeep. Your right and wrong.. if its a family of dogs it should be known by the breeders name: Patrick, Hammonds, Clouse, Colby,Boudreaux, chavis .. if it is a strain of dogs it should be named by the family or the dog itself. Just contact the adba and ask them if colby is a family, a strain, and a bloodline.. then ask about the others. Most people use the term line or bloodline when infact they mean strain or substrain. In fact most all strains are sub strains of colby or colby and old family crosses known as OFRN. Everything has colby in the foundation very few did not and eve less do not today. People also use the term blood instead of dna in the manner of speaking of traits and genetics.
 
#3 ·
thank you

i have never heard anyone explain the actual breakdown that constitutes a bloodline better than you in your reply to my post. you obviously are a very educated person about the bulldog.i appreciate your input and look forward to seeing more of your threads. :cheers:
 
#5 ·
Im going to explain it like this..

Check out the map; you see there are bloodlines: Apache, Commanche, Shoshone.. and there are strains and substrains(lil family tribes) off of those bloodlines. The Strains belong to the bloodline of original language and geological region which is colored, kept tight this bloodline can be under a different tribal name and using each other to keep the old blood tight.. For instance Shoshone is actually the source of the apache and commanche they broke off and traveled south and are cousin tribes that often traded women for wives. Even though they had different relgious aspects they honored the line inwhich they came, OLD FAMILY, the commanches were slave traders as well and inducted PROVEN tribal members, they game tested even their women. All the southern plains and even many of the Aztec Indians came from Shoshone area EARLY and traveled south. Cheyenne broke off early from a bloodline and formed their own strain that became their own bloodline or family just like the Apaches, and Commanches.. all those lil tribes and offshoots are the strains and substrains from them. Boudreaux is near its own bloodline of dogs much like colby because its untouched and old blood taken back into each other and bred together over a millinea. But now everyone is crossing boudreaux out so the pedigrees tend to scatter when they finally get to be where they need to be to be a bloodline. Even though most would consider Boudreaux a bloodline already. I do not because its to easily varied when outcrossed. You outcross to the bloodline of Colby or OFRN (pick a strain) and you will see obviously that your dogs are half colby, or OFRN. The blood is older and also the source of other strains and substrains such as boudreaux built on blind billy an Old family dog with a lil bit of colby. So if you take Colby or OFRN to it; it will dominate ..
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [232617] :: GUK'S HOBO
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [103556] :: CH. WHITEHEAD
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [55126] :: MBKS & SHAOLIN'S WHITEHEAD
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [11116] :: GAMBLER'S VIRGIL (5XW)

See how the COLBY genetics dominate in all crosses? OFRN does the same thing crossed into. Because they are the foundation source the bloodline.

There is the Colby bloodline and the OFRN bloodline... everything out there is dominated by these genetics crossed back into just for that reason. SO they are strains and substrains :)
 
#6 ·
Its NOT a greenhorn question buddy. To me the term bloodline is open to debate-a HUGE debate. the term has been misconstrued over the years and the actual definition has been changed and obscured.this makes finding the real definition of bloodline confusing at best. to me bloodline refers to a certain type of characteristics that were bred for by breeders of bulldogs.
Now that definition would allow almost any breeder to claim they have a new bloodline.
And according to the adba they dont.
IF you wanted to define it in a unobscurable and definitive definition(everyone is gonna be pissed at me) the great American pitbull terrier is the "bloodline". your dog is of american pitbull terrier blood. every other dogs name on your registry papers contributed to your dogs make up-which were all pitbull. there is no apbt so distinguished to me that would classify as a new blood type of apbt. to some there were two original bloodlines colby and old family red nose- all else were breed from those bloodlines. the strain are the dogs with the certain characteristics they were purposely breed for(mouth,level of aggresion,weight,gameness,etc) by breeders whose pups now consistantly show these traits.but are not new bloodlines.if i am wrong can someone please tell me how many generations it takes to actually create a bloodline?
 
#7 ·
Good post.. in general speaking of bulldog breeds the APBT is the bloodline of bulldog as is the AST and so on.. HOWEVER... Colby and OFRN are the only two BLOODLINES in the APBT they are almost their own dog. They are the father and mother to ALL strains and sub strains. Because both are in both AST and APBT and BOTH are just as strong genetically in those strains as any other strain or substrain when crosssed into or back into. Hell there are some whopper dog colby crosses and you can sure tell there is colby. OFRN is the same way.
 
#10 ·
A strain is defined as "a variety within a variety" according to Stratton. Since I am particular to the OFRN, I came across another Strattonism... the Old Family was a strain of the old Irish dogs, the Old Family Reds were a strain of the Old Family, and the OFRN a strain of the Old Family Reds. There does seem to be a play on words in the bulldog world because strain, line, segment, and breeder's name (Wallace "strain", for example) all seem to be used interchangeably just to make the waters even more murky.
 
#12 ·
murky waters from slang terms and euphamnisms become common clature and what most see as facts. Irish dogs were small and wirey them old lightener and hemphill dogs were large red houndish type bulldogs with game and wind like no other, most had red noses some did not some were even brindled red red. Follow the oldest dogs back and those Lightener dogs predate the Irish flood. ... This lil tid bit also coensides with that Catahoula dogs were here before most of the english immigrants, because those old spanish bulldogs crossed with indian pirahs made the catahoula. There were Spanish in Florida and the keys before the English claimed pre US soil. So with that comes the common knowledge that they all carried bulldogs for fighting and for fighting(waring) :D The spanish bulldogs were the now extinct bloodline of DDB. Those OLD FAMILY dogs are kept record and show on pedigree back dang near to the civil war. I do remember that part in strattons book but I think there was or is a catch information wise and he mentions this or maybe its in one of the colby books.. Hmmm gotta look that one up but it seems like info I already processed and the OF coming from Ireland is misunderstanding from slang terms. I do like to think that Old Family is Irish but the facts to support that don't add up. Follow the irish dogs they get smaller and more intense game wise lil balls of fire, the lightener dogs and cochoran and others were quite large and red on red quite often if not all the time. They pulled in the irish dogs off the boat just like colby did and thats the difference. Colby was Irish/English .. Lightener was irish/spanish.. Corcoran was irish and heavy on paddy just like colby and the crosses Ligthener used were colbys tight paddy dogs. When you see colby into them its because they had the same irish stock, they didnt want that english stock but wanted to bring the size down some and maintain the fire its obvious in their breeding on pedigree. Ligthener gave em all up for smaller and less game and english dogs. Ironic aint it? He had the oldest blood in the world next with colby a close 2nd. The older those dogs the more dogue they look as far as Old Family even the old bulldog pictures of the 1890s look much like the bulldogue pictured in the sketch below.

They brought some dogs with them like maybe one or two then bred them to the bulldogs in that country side that were there, then time goes by Lightener and Colby rub shoulders and he pulls in more irish blood which is why the OF dogs werent over weight and barrelled more agile and stream lined even for big dogs. BUT as Lightener stated he couldnt bring the size down and wanted away from big red dogs. Kept PURE and into itself they never were able to bring the size down, more colby blood gets introduced and the size comes down. Wilder and Hemphill all had large dogs. Colby favored the Irish dogs over the english dogs and used more Irish than english the proof is also in the pedigrees. People like to say colby is all english but really its mostly irish. Follow your own pedigrees all the way back ;) you'll see what Im talking about. If irish dogs were known for being small and gamey there is no reasons that Lightener having the oldest old family dogs couldnt have had small dogs but he said they were to large meaning they didnt breed down. He was as good as breeder as Colby so there is a lot in a statement like that from him.


Compare to Original Bulldog ... who came from ^^^ the fighting dog of gaul the original extinct bloodline or foundation strain of DDB.
 
#11 ·
Murky waters is right! I'm startin to understand I think. Let me try this then.... so what most refer to as bloodline is really what? Substrain? Jeep for example would be a substrain of Loposay?

I want to understand but its a lot to wrap my head around. But thank u all for the knowledge so far! And see Jman, we are a friendly forum :)
 
#13 ·
I like the way you write FH...I can understand what you are saying! :p it's a lot to take in and digest but it is truly fascinating!
 
#15 · (Edited)
I ain't arguing with you Stan, just so we're straight on that:) Scratch? Stan vs. Stratton? Stratton can't spar LOL. On page 225 of The Best of the APBT Stratton answers a question about Old Family Reds and OFRN. He says the Old Family Reds were a segment(strain?) of the Old Family (strain of old Irish dogs, generally small, very highly bred, and renowned for their gameness...the Gashouse dogs stemmed in the main from this family). He then concludes by saying that the OFRN was a segment of the Old Family Red strain. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding his conclusions or it has been overly simplified on paper, IDK. Stratton does mention the fact that Lightner (and family) had imported from Ireland Pre Civil War, utilizing the Old Family Reds for his OFRN strain BUT eventually did give up on that strain due to size and nose color. Lightner then became involved in with a second strain of dogs.
Stratton said that this small, variable colored strain of Lightner " is one of the great mysteries of Pit Bull history" because no one knew where he got this strain from LOL. Confusing.
 
#16 ·
Idk -i truely dont. I have not read the book,but i will. What doesnt make sense is that the man would give up on a dog because of its nose color,especially if they were winning. Game not the"look"
mentality created our breed. If not we would of had 125lb "blue pitbulls" alot sooner.?????????
 
#17 · (Edited)
man, I knew you werent arguing, I just figure I better not leave any gaps.. In no way am I aruging stratton rather take what he says and put it in the pot with the other authors of authority on the breed. yes sir and I checked and confirmed. I will look through my litterature for other mentions of lightener most all confirm he had stock that was from the civil war times supposedly and no one knew where they came from. .. but yeah so if old family is irish and small then why were the wilder hemphill and lightener dogs so big? Yes there is other litterature on Lightener and him switching stock. His own blood Searcys Jeff beat Colorados IMPII his own english/irish blood that he favored over the big dogs after how long? He always favored the lil dogs thats why he kept crossing into the irish but his OLD Family just didnt breed down. Then he just switchfoot, and took the heavy if not all paddy dogs with english outs.. Hmmm?? shoulda stuck with his old blood because it didnt pan out like the big red dogs.

Old family reds have always been heavily irish influenced the oldest dogs in the ped that predate colby are not irish .. I'd still like to think that however and for the most part it is all irish... its just the oldest dogs are most likely dogues and Old Family is the reference to Spain. Like any good dog man he kept his formula secret and the Old Family slang term was easily played with.. all we have to do is compare the dogs..

Lightener, hemphill, Wilder all were very dogue like except the snipey head however they throw/threw brick like bulldog heads too. Houndish in look they were and are large and rangy. There is another large rangy strain, the hammonds stuff that is built on rufus and alligator, because he had the body of the old family dogs. look at alligators bottom half on a 7 shes all old family /OFR and breeding alligator back to her to get rufus well that just doubled up on that and locked it into the dna format for that family of dogs as most all of them have the hammonds family look. Get em red with a red nose and they look almost to the T of some wilder hemphill stock..

Paddy and Paddy stock was the heavily used irish dogs its what colby was built on and what black jack, braddock, fighting peter,.. .. all of them were paddy stacked dogs. Fergusons Centipede was paddy and colby influenced Lightener and in some of that Lightener you see it go back to a couple of spanish dogs with no further ped; while all the other dogs go back to paddy.. This means he HAD old dogs.. there genetics were strong and carried a mutation or coding that the other strains just didn't have. It may take a day or two or three, take your time and disect them peds, and see how many actually go back to paddy bred dogs (ALOT) .. Some go back to SBT that were proven and scatterbred some go back to the irish imports not of colby, farmers turk for example has dogs that were imported in the mid 1800s in his 4 and 5 gen on his pedigree and other dogs go back further to dogues. The first scotts/irish came in the 1740/50s which is in bulldog hsitory as well as history and the 1850s came the irish surge.For instance Delihant is a name that goes back to the old country and is associate with clergy. The English surged at this time too. Its easy to remember the irish dogs were small and mighty they were able to be carried under coats into the mines, factories, and fields.. ... .. Lightener having the purest quitting them cause they're to large... Then look at whats at hand. besides his stock not many had dogs that didnt have colby or predate it if any. Corvino stuff has lightener but is heavily influenced by colby dogs. Look at Lightener Joker, this is a dog that was old for his time.

I know the pieces fit; I watched them fall away~
 
#21 ·
man, I knew you werent arguing, I just figure I better not leave any gaps.. In no way am I aruging stratton rather take what he says and put it in the pot with the other authors of authority on the breed. yes sir and I checked and confirmed. I will look through my litterature for other mentions of lightener most all confirm he had stock that was from the civil war times supposedly and no one knew where they came from. .. but yeah so if old family is irish and small then why were the wilder hemphill and lightener dogs so big? Yes there is other litterature on Lightener and him switching stock. His own blood Searcys Jeff beat Colorados IMPII his own english/irish blood that he favored over the big dogs after how long? He always favored the lil dogs thats why he kept crossing into the irish but his OLD Family just didnt breed down. Then he just switchfoot, and took the heavy if not all paddy dogs with english outs.. Hmmm?? shoulda stuck with his old blood because it didnt pan out like the big red dogs.

Old family reds have always been heavily irish influenced the oldest dogs in the ped that predate colby are not irish .. I'd still like to think that however and for the most part it is all irish... its just the oldest dogs are most likely dogues and Old Family is the reference to Spain. Like any good dog man he kept his formula secret and the Old Family slang term was easily played with.. all we have to do is compare the dogs..

Lightener, hemphill, Lightener all were very dogue like except the snipey head however they throw/threw brick like bulldog heads too. Houndish in look they were and are large and rangy. There is another large rangy strain, the hammonds stuff that is built on rufus and alligator, because he had the body of the old family dogs. look at alligators bottom half on a 7 shes all old family /OFR and breeding alligator back to her to get rufus well that just doubled up on that and locked it into the dna format for that family of dogs as most all of them have the hammonds family look. Get em red with a red nose and they look almost to the T of some wilder hemphill stock..

Paddy and Paddy stock was the heavily used irish dogs its what colby was built on and what black jack, braddock, fighting peter,.. .. all of them were paddy stacked dogs. Fergusons Centipede was paddy and colby influenced Lightener and in some of that Lightener you see it go back to a couple of spanish dogs with no further ped; while all the other dogs go back to paddy.. This means he HAD old dogs.. there genetics were strong and carried a mutation or coding that the other strains just didn't have. It may take a day or two or three, take your time and disect them peds, and see how many actually go back to paddy bred dogs (ALOT) .. Some go back to SBT that were proven and scatterbred some go back to the irish imports not of colby, farmers turk for example has dogs that were imported in the mid 1800s in his 4 and 5 gen on his pedigree and other dogs go back further to dogues. The first scotts/irish came in the 1740/50s which is in bulldog hsitory as well as history and the 1850s came the irish surge.For instance Delihant is a name that goes back to the old country and is associate with clergy. The English surged at this time too. Its easy to remember the irish dogs were small and mighty they were able to be carried under coats into the mines, factories, and fields.. ... .. Lightener having the purest quitting them cause they're to large... Then look at whats at hand. besides his stock not many had dogs that didnt have colby or predate it if any. Corvino stuff has lightener but is heavily influenced by colby dogs. Look at Lightener Joker, this is a dog that was old for his time.

I know the pieces fit; I watched them fall away~
I have always wondered why the OFRN "ran big". Can size be thought of in "trait" terms? I realize that what determines a bulldog's size involves many factors, but can size be "dominantly" or "recessively" thought of? With all the tight breeding I can't help but ask how this size factored in to it all genetically. IDK, I'm certainly not a geneticist...I just play one on TV:)
 
#23 · (Edited)
IF adba consideres HEINZL a bloodline they would also consider BOUDREAUX a bloodline and CHAVIS as well.. I do not. HEINZL is basically colby they go hand and hand. BOUDREAUX and CHAVIS can be completely dominated by crossing into Colby or OFRN unlike Heinzl. Who has his name behind many if not most of the dogs today.

Im not the ADBA nor am I greenwood.. I look at it in the eyes of genetic dominance and diverstiy. Heinzl had the most going as far as breeder goes but he used JP's dogs exclusively. He may have been a better breeder howver Colby still had great influence on his dogs complete genetic makeup.

COLBY and OFRN are the two bloodlines of the APBT .. JMO everything falls under one or the other or both.. everything is dominated by one or the other. When bred tight redboy and jeep turn red on red, most of them buck dogs red on red.. Thats strong OFRN DNA being pushed to the surface asa dominant trait. Redboy bred right could be an outcross for OFRN as could Colby for that matter. Colby is the only bloodline that can be used as an outcross for all strains and substrains of the APBT. IF there are any pure Heinzl dogs left, they too can be used as a perfect outcross for any strain or substrain... Heinzl simply lacked the family to hand his work down to who also would understand and continue his work as he did. COLBY is a family bloodline since late 19th century, family continues JPs hard work...

if you wanna be a breeder above the rest; follow Heinzl and Colby follow their peidgrees their words and pay attention to detail in your own stock, dont be in a hurry to sell keep em til 6months or so and make sure you dont have to cull. When inbreeding and tight linebreeding or direct outcross of two inbred strains; some dogs need to be culled, gonna have some goof ups for sure until you single out and cull all those genes and traits from your strain to begin forming a line. You have to cull ... those who don't are not honest to breeders ethics. Follow Heinzl you will not make a mistake unles you fumble the ball.
 
#26 ·
IF adba consideres HEINZL a bloodline they would also consider BOUDREAUX a bloodline and CHAVIS as well.. I do not. HEINZL is basically colby they go hand and hand. BOUDREAUX and CHAVIS can be completely dominated by crossing into Colby or OFRN unlike Heinzl. Who has his name behind many if not most of the dogs today.

Im not the ADBA nor am I greenwood.. I look at it in the eyes of genetic dominance and diverstiy. Heinzl had the most going as far as breeder goes but he used JP's dogs exclusively. He may have been a better breeder howver Colby still had great influence on his dogs complete genetic makeup.

COLBY and OFRN are the two bloodlines of the APBT .. JMO everything falls under one or the other or both.. everything is dominated by one or the other. When bred tight redboy and jeep turn red on red, most of them buck dogs red on red.. Thats strong OFRN DNA being pushed to the surface asa dominant trait. Redboy bred right could be an outcross for OFRN as could Colby for that matter. Colby is the only bloodline that can be used as an outcross for all strains and substrains of the APBT. IF there are any pure Heinzl dogs left, they too can be used as a perfect outcross for any strain or substrain... Heinzl simply lacked the family to hand his work down to who also would understand and continue his work as he did. COLBY is a family bloodline since late 19th century, family continues JPs hard work...

if you wanna be a breeder above the rest; follow Heinzl and Colby follow their peidgrees their words and pay attention to detail in your own stock, dont be in a hurry to sell keep em til 6months or so and make sure you dont have to cull. When inbreeding and tight linebreeding or direct outcross of two inbred strains; some dogs need to be culled, gonna have some goof ups for sure until you single out and cull all those genes and traits from your strain to begin forming a line. You have to cull ... those who don't are not honest to breeders ethics. Follow Heinzl you will not make a mistake unles you fumble the ball.
Lot of good breeders, some were in a league of their own. The Reverend Howard Heinzl fits the bill. I would throw in a few others, but that is where personal bias takes over LOL. You know I'm a Corvino fan;)
 
#24 ·
so due to my lack of pedigree history,which i have no problem admitting,IF you got your hands on a heinzl and put it into a colby dog what would be the outcome of the pups?- in your opinion.I understand you said heinzl is pretty much colby but got confused when you said the adba considered heinzl a bloodline. I apologize if this is getting redundant for you or if this is a stoopid ass question. but my knowledge about the breed comes from ownership(having had dozens) my grandfather and family. we have never been breeders per say of the science of the art- just good dogs to good dogs. also if you have time could you give me the exact names of some of the books you have mentioned? stratton etc i greatly appreciate your help firehazard,
 
#25 ·
This is the American Pit Bull Terrier
The American Pit Bull Terrier
The World of the American Pit Bull Terrier
The Truth about the American Pit Bull Terrier....all Richard Stratton, I like the second and third books mentioned best.
Dogs of Velvet and Steel...Bob Stevens
Fighting for Life...Frank Rocca
Colby's Book of the APBT
The Complete Gamedog...Ed Faron
There are more of course.
 
#30 ·
this is a good lot to start with and get a STRONG common sense factor for understanding the dog. GREAT POST!
 
#27 ·
Dogs like this:

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1799] :: HEINZL'S ******
foundation of heinzl dogs today...

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [54206] :: MBKS COLBY MAGNUM

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [10648] :: CEDARBROOKS MADELINE

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [28107] :: HEINZL'S CHIEF

... just an example of a pure colby dog... and a pure heinzl dog.. not much different really.. and the cross.. Tudors was given Dibo by Heinzl and Heinzl had some paddy blood outside of colby which is why it always clicked so well just like the previous Lightener Colby crosses and why Colby and Tudors crosses always clicked. Heinzl diffrent from colby in that aspect and didn't cull red noses from his program, and a couple of other minor details surrounding pedigree ( dna ) knowledge. Heinzl and Colby dogs have always clicked.. .. its the paddy dna they both harbor.. Colby is just the more pure (untainted) foundation strain to the rest of the dogs in America today. (rest meaning not all) Everything has paddy in it some way or another and there were dogs built on Paddy and strains.. None like colby that become a bloodline and foundation to a majority of the stock out there. Armitage, Clark, .. Fly of Panama.. all pure colby.. So even the corvino stock has ample colby dna in there.

Heinzl is considered a bloodline in the ADBA by way of the article you posted. Im OCD and soak in facts when Im reading like robotic anaylsis.. I read it again to break it down and take in each emotional and rational thought by each line puncuation, by puncuation.. . Then I read it a third time to really understand what I am already wise to and then it becomes knowing.
 
#31 ·
The Old Family Red Nose Strain did not need the Colby dogs to be where they are today.
And again, OFRN is NOT a bloodline. It is simply a STRAIN of the American (pit) Bull Terrier.
The bloodlines within the OFRN strain are from the breeders or dogs they are based on.
Lou himself told me before he passed that his family had nothing to do with the OFRN dogs,
and his father never once spoke of them in his lifetime.
Even more, if a red dog popped up, they culled it. They did not like the red dogs.
OFRN dogs also beat many Colby dogs in the []. This was when only the best were allowed life. They had to prove they deserved the title of ApBT!!
They were a small strain, not overproduced by pocket breeders as today.

The dog game had been going on long before Colby came around. He was simply the first to make them public.
A lot of dogmen disliked him for that.

But one thing is true: the legendary game Colby dog is just that today: Legend. The past. Today they are more in par with the AST. Bred for show.
The OFRN today have improved and continue to improve. Without the Colby dogs.

Now for the "Corvino" dogs, those with interest should keep their eyes open this year for a book.
"An Interview with Carmen Corvino." (Joe's Grandson).
I recently had dinner with men who grew up with him.
This book is to for once and for all separate the facts from the BS going around.
Bob Wallace himself considered Joe Corvino the greatest breeder of his generation. Over John P. Colby.
How many of you saw more matches than Bob Wallace did in his days?

This is not to diminish the accomplishments of Colby...
John was a great breeder, no denying that. But his family never preserved the same caliber of dogs their father and grandfather did.
"History" cannot make a dog better, by a name.

As Joe Corvino said: "The test of a family is time."
 
#33 ·
... ... Look at the pedigrees themselves and put your own emotional constitutions to the side. Im partial to the OFRN as my favorite.. and YES the OFRN as a whole is a bloodline. So is COLBY and ALL OTHER dogs come from those dogs and can be highly altered by going back into those dogs or lock in traits, some over looked and lost.

If I did say need it was from pedigree research and being a breeder myself. .. the test of family is indeed time.. Whos still around besides COLBY in that purity? All action guys who take a chance and outcross with pure colby produce all aces and dimes: from mayfield -JRBBolioTmb and all the others done right. >> IM SAYING ALL THE OFRN PEOPLE are OVERLOOKING KEY elements that show they used heavy paddy and irish dogs .. which is almost exclusively what Colby used as well as the English Pilot dogs The paddy was dominant. The paddy is also where those old guys pulled in the Colby bred dogs because of their pedigree.. Follow a colby ped back is mostly paddy and kept in one family bred by JPs standards. Ol Bob Wallace is another one of those types that is a league above the rest.... Unlike colby they didn't have family to keep it in tact properly or gave up on it. Corvino may have said wallace was the greatest breeder of all time, well Hemphills broke jaw sire to Searcy Jeff was near pure colby on top even the lightener were colby dogs, and all colby on bottom. ..<<Lightener gets the credit for this dog and when you look at HEmphills Broke jaw you see its all Colby and what isnt is paddy stock. So again.. opinion of DID NOT NEED is moot, as we can see the building blocks clearly.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=1117
 
#35 ·
... ... Look at the pedigrees themselves and put your own emotional constitutions to the side. Im partial to the OFRN as my favorite.. and YES the OFRN as a whole is a bloodline. So is COLBY and ALL OTHER dogs come from those dogs and can be highly altered by going back into those dogs or lock in traits, some over looked and lost.

If I did say need it was from pedigree research and being a breeder myself. .. the test of family is indeed time.. Whos still around besides COLBY in that purity? All action guys who take a chance and outcross with pure colby produce all aces and dimes: from mayfield -JRBBolioTmb and all the others done right. >> IM SAYING ALL THE OFRN PEOPLE are OVERLOOKING KEY elements that show they used heavy paddy and irish dogs .. which is almost exclusively what Colby used as well as the English Pilot dogs The paddy was dominant. The paddy is also where those old guys pulled in the Colby bred dogs because of their pedigree.. Follow a colby ped back is mostly paddy and kept in one family bred by JPs standards. Ol Bob Wallace is another one of those types that is a league above the rest.... Unlike colby they didn't have family to keep it in tact properly or gave up on it. Corvino may have said wallace was the greatest breeder of all time, well Hemphills broke jaw sire to Searcy Jeff was near pure colby on top even the lightener were colby dogs, and all colby on bottom. ..<<Lightener gets the credit for this dog and when you look at HEmphills Broke jaw you see its all Colby and what isnt is paddy stock. So again.. opinion of DID NOT NEED is moot, as we can see the building blocks clearly.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1117] :: HEMPHILL'S BROKE JAW
"Strike that, now reverse it" (Willy Wonka for ya)....Wallace said Corvino was the greatest breeder of the day, not the other way around. Sorry Stan, couldn't let that go LOL!
 
#34 ·
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1216] :: KING COTTON

built on Wallaces Searcy Jeff and had that Old lightner gyp in there with another 1/4 shot sired by Centipede who Colby paddy and paddy dogs to a shippley/corcorans gas house/paddy stock.. again they used the best of the paddy stock they could find if not through Tudors dogs it was Colby himself in a couple of Lighteners crosses and of course heinzl had a good batch of corvino dogs. .. the reason all those clicked with colby on the cross is because REALLY TECHNICALLY ..

Lloyds PADDY/Sweeneys GASHOUSE and Lloyds PILOT/GAS HOUSE are the FOUNDATION of almost every strain of dog rooted in the USA with the name APBT .. All the OFR go back to Paddy or other irish dogs right off the boat. Lightener had some old dogs that were around before all the irish dogs and no one knew where they came from .. HMMM NO ONE KNEW and everyone had irish dogs and paddy dogs and english dogs so to say that all his croanies would say NO ONE KNEW where he got his dogs, that says a lot in very few words. Lightener quit his dogs cause they were to big and so he went to the straight paddy dogs. Hmmm.. He had paddy blood all in the red dogs he had so why the jump ship? Because of that old blood he had infused with those dogs. The blood no one knew where it came from. Big bulldogues.
 
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