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Old 02-22-2013, 05:07 AM   #31 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
tri .. being black tan and white .. fall under black and tan.. the "tri" with the white is genetically linked to black and tan. I've bred my apbts small to 27-30lbs .. now when I follow the gentic guideline right I should be able to find the right brindle or black and tan APBT bred right and as to be a small dog it will throw black and tans with this buckskin female I got. Then everyone will be convinced my lil 27lb black and tan dogs are ..... .... .... .... terrier mixed... LOL people have NO clue about genetics. .. people think my 27lbs dog is a boxer mix

Black and tan is one of the original colors of the fighting bulldog and it was dominant in a particular terrier that was bred down from the first terriers ever which came from inbred pit bulldogs of late 1700s .. The first terriers registered were in 1835 in England and they came from really inbred pit bulldogs. England is responsible mainly for developing the fighting bulldog from the alaunt which is from the Fighting Dog of Gaul (original DDB) and from that lil fighting bulldog they pulled bear biters, bandogs(mastiffs) and terriers .. The pit terrier is the direct inbred inbred inbred decendant from the pit bulldog and tossed back into the the pit bulldog altered the genetics forever and they are forever one breed Bull and Terrier.. Precuser to that as they got the pit terrier from the bulldog they bred that lil terrier into everything to get other lil crosses. This same action was done in France, Germany and other coutries but not to the perfection of England and Ireland. The Manchester Terrier is a rough lil terrier named for the region it was most popular and even though its more a showbred dog now in its original form it was a direct kick down from the pit terrier back into it and from that the English White fighting terrier, now extinct. Dobermans are german dogs bred down from German English crossed dogs and it was the "Farm Terrier" the original is a much more balanced dog. Pincher means terrier in german.

Black and Tan, Buckskin Red, White with cowdog spots ... are the original colors of the breed... ... When brindle dogs were introduced from using a crossout from the bear biter stock they through in a world of diversity in brindle, again in the late 1800s they threw brindle dogs in. Before then its recorded in a world of bulldog and mastiff history that they kept brindle stock seperate for the longest time. Interestingly enough they seperated the bear biter stock and one became the Danish hound (Great Dane) the other the Rottweiller... Brindle trumps Black and Tan .. .. in the hammonds hailstone strain there is black and brindled tan .. thats some inbred linebred inbred mutations for you to figure out.

So if black tan and white are genetically the same as black and tan ... THEN
Blue and Tan
Choco and tan
Seal and tan
buskin red and tan
tan and yellow I've seen em in all those colors.

Brindle dogs(bred in a particular fashion) taken to buckskins can through black and tan (remember brindle trumps black and tan so thats going to require math and good timing or just plain or forrest gump luck)
A black and tan X a buckskin (yellow or red) produces black and tan
Correct me if I'm simply misreading or just not understanding.. But you said "A black and tan X a buckskin (yellow or red) produces black and tan"

That is incorrect in most cases. It would only happen upon the lucky chance that the buckskin parent is carrying a gene for tan points as it is a recessive gene, and will not show unless both alleles are for tan points. Now if your buckskin is what as known as recessive red, meaning the dog is homozygous for "e" on it's extension locus, then all the hairs on the dog are a shade of red. Recessive red will effect all others except the white markings. Note: this doesn't effect the pigment of the skin, just the hair, (phaeomelanin) so the dog can still have a blue, black, red, or isabella nose. It is impossible to tell the difference between a clear sable and a recessive red by looks alone, genetic testing would be needed to be positive, or extensive breeding projects. But essentially, recessive red will hide the other genes that wouldv'e normally been displayed so it would make the puppy out come even more of guessing game, unless you'd seen the parents, grandparents, syblings, and offspring of that dog already, and figured it up.

Either way as rule of thumb... Black and Tan to buckskin (which is either sable or recessive red) will usually produce Buckskin pups as Sable and Black and Tan are on the same Locus, and Sable (buckskin) "trumps" Black and Tan.

You are correct about brindling "trumping" black and tan, but it is on a completely different locus. You can have Dominant Black "K" it is dominant over all on its locus. Brindle "kbr" which is next dominant on that locus as long as there is no "K" present, and finally "kk" which is recessive black and if the dog is "kk" it will not be black, but will display whatever is on its A locus which could be sable, agouti, tan points, or recessive black ("aa" it is a different way of getting a black dog).

A way of understanding pigment on dogs is layers. They have a base Eumelanin layer. Its color can be determined by looking at the nose. You see this bottom most layer when the two layers above it are recessive, "kk" for the top layer to dissapear and "aa" for the middle layer. That middle layer is the Phaeomelanin layer, and it can be anywhere from white, cream, buckskin, fawn, tan, red, orange, to irish setter mahogany and anywhere inbetween, but unless a dog is recessive black "kk" it will be hidden by the top layer of Eumelanin which can be determined by the dogs nose. So even though I'm using black it could also be blue, liver (what is considered a chocolate rednose (different from a red red nose)) or isabella (the diluted form of liver)

The first and second layers can dissapear by degrees. The first is Eumelanin, and it will either be "K" which is dominant so the gene will display it whether both alleles are "K", "KK" or just one "Kkbr","Kk".. if however there is no "K" but there is a "kbr" then the dog is brindle. This is kinda like half and half. You are seeing some of the top layer (the black) and some of the middle layer (the tans, creams, browns ect) The dog will be brindle if the allele combination is "kbrkbr" or "kbrk" If there is no "K" or "kbr" then the gene will have to be "kk" and the top eumelanin layer dissapears. (Although in this locus the nose/eyerim (skin) color isn't effected, when dealing with the Eumelanin pigment, it is effected when determining black or liver, diluted or no dilution.)

The Second layer works similarly. This is the Phaeomelanin layer and only the hairs are effected, the dogs nose color will not change when the Phaeomelanin pigment is effected. Anyway... when the top layer is gone, this one shows up. It will be "Ay" is dominant no matter what it is paired with and is the gene for sabeling. Sable is the bottom eumelanin layer seeping through. A dog with this gene can be a "clear sable" and have no bottom layer hairs show throw, or it can range to any degree all the way to a "heavy sable" and appear very smutty with alot of bottom layer hairs showing through .. Then there is agouti, which does not occur in bulldogs, but it is the banding of individual hairs like if you pluck a hair from a wolf's hackles it will be white at the bottom, and black at the tip with or without black and white bands inbetween. After agouti (which doesn't apply) you have "at" which is tan points. It is recessive and the dog must be "atat" to display them. Tan points on any of the 4 base colors is the very most Eumelanin layer showing through everywhere except where you see the tan. Finally there is "a" which recessive so for its effects to show the dog must be "aa" and this is the middle layer completely dissapearing so all you see it the bottom most Eumelanin layer.

Recessive red "e" as mentioned above is on a different locus, but no matter what combinations of genes your dog has thus far, if it is "ee" all of the dogs eumelanin pigment in the hair turns to Phaeomelanin pigment (member, that was a shade of red that can be anywhere from light as white to dark as mahogany)

White is a layer all of its own is on top of all the others even Recessive red. This is because there is neither pigment is in those hairs so they are essentially clear and appear white.

I realize canine color genetics are not really set up as layers.. but that is the best way I know to explain it.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:23 AM   #32 (permalink)
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^^ obviously you haven't read my past genetic coversations concerning OFRN and Merle.. Your not explaining anything to me I don't already know.. I simplified it enough, I've produced tri, black and tan and produced dogs that produces black and tan in ALL cases it was a yellow buckskin or red buckskin male (either red nosed or strong red nosed genetics behind it) I used with a black and tan or a grey(white,yellow,black)/black brindle Im a foundation breeder. Colby lost the black and tan when they culled the red nosed from the stock completely. Knowing how to breed "backwards" to get the original genes to surface.. is what I do .. ... Canine genetics is rather simple.
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Old 02-22-2013, 02:16 PM   #33 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
^^ obviously you haven't read my past genetic coversations concerning OFRN and Merle.. Your not explaining anything to me I don't already know.. I simplified it enough, I've produced tri, black and tan and produced dogs that produces black and tan in ALL cases it was a yellow buckskin or red buckskin male (either red nosed or strong red nosed genetics behind it) I used with a black and tan or a grey(white,yellow,black)/black brindle Im a foundation breeder. Colby lost the black and tan when they culled the red nosed from the stock completely. Knowing how to breed "backwards" to get the original genes to surface.. is what I do .. ... Canine genetics is rather simple.
No, I haven't read them, I apologize. Yes, They are simple, I wasn't explaining to you specifically (i credit your knowledge more than to break it down quite that far if not for others who may not know)

I admit, I haven't studied the genes of any specific bloodline, but genetics works consistently regardless no?

Could you say that the reason the Black and Tan seemed to be dominant in all cases to the buckskin male (red or yellow doesn't matter I do not Believe, nor would the nose color except in explaining the occasional "chocolate" and tan.) because the buckskin dog either carries one allele for Tan Points (in this case Black and Tans are possible and so are buckskins, not that a buckskin would have to be produced, but there is a likely possiblity, OR the buckskin male could be homozygous for Tan points but is recessive red? this could result in entire litters of Black and Tans consistently if the Black and Tan parent had no "e" allele.

I'm not so much trying to say your wrong, as much as, if your right, I want to understand how.
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Old 02-22-2013, 03:14 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by APASA View Post
No, I haven't read them, I apologize. Yes, They are simple, I wasn't explaining to you specifically (i credit your knowledge more than to break it down quite that far if not for others who may not know)

I admit, I haven't studied the genes of any specific bloodline, but genetics works consistently regardless no?

Could you say that the reason the Black and Tan seemed to be dominant in all cases to the buckskin male (red or yellow doesn't matter I do not Believe, nor would the nose color except in explaining the occasional "chocolate" and tan.) because the buckskin dog either carries one allele for Tan Points (in this case Black and Tans are possible and so are buckskins, not that a buckskin would have to be produced, but there is a likely possiblity, OR the buckskin male could be homozygous for Tan points but is recessive red? this could result in entire litters of Black and Tans consistently if the Black and Tan parent had no "e" allele.

I'm not so much trying to say your wrong, as much as, if your right, I want to understand how.
its a particular coding that is attached someway to red nosed dogs, rather dogs that carry the red nose coding dormant or not. Also it was early known, per Colby, that a buckskin red and a grey or black/buckskin brindle would produce the black and tans.. Heres the thing, Brindle trumps black and tan.. and in mutation it can merge if stacked just right just look at the Hammonds Hailstone offspring and grand offspring.. ..

Using the punit square and 2yrs of pedigree and dog research talking a great deal with GH I decided to get a dog from him and paid him 8months before he and I found the right one for me. We went by working quality first and well I decided to go with a breeders trophy .. Hammonds/Heinzl the only female who is grey brindle of the bunch. With Hoagie, a red dog with black and white, she produced all dogs with buckskin( red or yellow), white, and black.. even the red noses have black on them! Both parents havent had any black and tans in history for a millinea.. Have you seen a red nose with black spots? I produced 4, one passed in utero and the other would've been the smallest dog and he got laid on, so two females with red noses and the black spots have all but disappeared leaving just black hair faded spot, looks dirty.. You take any of those females to a buckskin male that carries such traits or out right black and tan and voila~ ... black and tan dogs all day.. taint it with some brindled stuff not paying attention to the whole dog and it will scatter it all up once again being dormant or from fluke breedings.
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Old 02-23-2013, 04:32 AM   #35 (permalink)
 
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I believe maybe the difference in our terminology is loosing me... When your saying buckskin red or yellow what are you referring to? The shade of Phaeomelanin? Are these buckskins red or black nosed?

And by saying grey when describing the brindle what are you meaning? Are you saying the dog is grey with black striping? This commenly how dogs are described when the Phaeomelanin is diluted and could be as light as a pale cream color.. It isn't actually grey.. although this is a grey hound, is this what you mean?




Yes, I have heard of black patches on red nose dogs. Those pups would be recessive reds (which now makes the Black and Tan quite possible since a dog can be homozygous for tan points, but be homozygous for recessive at the time which will make the dog red thus hiding it's gene for tan points that would've otherwise been displayed) anyhow, the black patches are caused by somatic mutation. It occurs early on during embryo development. Due to the mutation, the patches have a different genotype than the rest of the dog. It is sometimes known as mosaicism...

Above, you said "even the rednoses had black on them! Both parents have not had any black and tans in history for a millinea..." What does black and tan have to do with that?

Brindle is not on the same locus as Tan points.. They do not compete. You can have a dog with both brindling (sp?) and tan points. The brindling is only visable on the tan markings, as that is only place there is Phaeomelanin on the dog being displayed.
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Old 02-23-2013, 04:53 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Brindle trumps black and tan... (they generally force one or the other dominant in a litter) and Yes red noses with black hair are out there, however its not like they're so many you can say.. Oh yeh sure (as if its a common accurance).. .. this is a good old fashioned breeding.

As far as why did I mention that the dogs had no black and tan.. .. So you know I know enough to take two dogs I've never seen and put em together to build foundation bulldogs.. I said in crayon what you just said in the way I would've explained it 2yrs ago, lol, I've had to learn to use Crayola Mountain since then... I've left PAGES of good genetics stuff.

The proof is in the pudding I've said it before and I'll say it again.. black and tan is genetically connected to red .. abolish the red or trump it with brindle and black and tan will be dormant and all but gone. .. black and tan has been the favorites of many good dog men and women but few really understand what they are reading or copying and pasting from books, Ebooks, and online sources. ... Let alone how to keep it and harbor it along with game traits.. Most dogmen lost the black and tan within their substrain all together.

People are confused.. Buckskin is buckskin.. there is buckskin red, or red buckskin.. buckskin yellow or yellow buckskin; depending on way of speaking. However to think that yellow dogs are associated with buckskin or carry strong buckskin traits is completely off and most dogs are mis labled in color any way. ... I've met quite a few people from ARK and none of them even the educated ones didn't understand a coversation in crayon and insisted on using scientific terms. .. I quit using proper terminology for the sake of repeating myself over an over and over.. SO ANYONE who was reading could clearly understand what Im talking about.
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Old 02-23-2013, 02:15 PM   #37 (permalink)
 
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Well I didn't learn it in crayon. And I've always found the thick bold lines (usually in tandem with poor handwiritng) hard to read.

I'm not trying to say your wrong. You keep telling me whats whats but your not explaining, at least not in a way that makes sense to me, how its occuring. I mean how its occuring as in what alleles the dog is getting from each parent to make the genes you are talking about.

I did not say "oh yea sure" like it was a common occurance. I simply told you what I've learned about it . I couldn't garuntee ur pups are the same exact scenario, but it's what i would think ..

At this point I'm not intrested in the quality of dogs your creating, or even your stock in particular, I am wanting to learn from the solid standpoint of genetics. Its not anything against you or your dogs, its just my inital comments/inquiries were abt the genetics and from a scientific point. I'm not wanting the dumbed down "crayon" version because I want to understand whats going on behind the seens.

Also, you say buckskin is buckskin and that there is red buckskin and yellow buckskin. Then you said to think yellow dogs are associated with buckskin or carry strong buckskin traits is off. Would you please explain (scientifically) how buckskin occurs and how it is different from other "yellow" dogs.

And idk what your getting at when you specify "people for ARK" or "even the educated ones" but if you don't believe you can explain, or answer what I'm asking directly, without irrelevant comments, I'd rather just leave it alone.
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:54 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I explained that yellow is associated with buckskin because most people dis associate with buckskin because TRUE yellow (Ay) most people have seen rarely.... simple as that..

I always wonder how folks come up with the conclusions they do when they read what I've simplified... Especially when I have had to work on speaking to the masses to understand canine genetics both behavior and physical attributes. I really don't like repeating myself so I work to simplify it as much as possible. You already have a good understanding and probably just are confused as to my terminology and how Im calling out "what people think" vs "what is" without being said...

The quality of dogs Im producing? Is that what you got from that? (sigh) example of two different times with two different sub strains of bulldogs and getting black and tan 12yrs ago and nailing the forumla for the precurser to black and tan ... red black nosed dogs that throw more red noses than black, and a brindle similar to the greyhound to posted with a black nose that also throws more red noses than black. ... I gave subtle hints to what Im talking about for the topic at hand. Yes, it was a poke at Arkansas... a friendly but a poke non the less, if your from Arkansas then you know you have about as many if not more ignorant folks as Oklahoma does.

Here in simplicity without a long debate for me to get all OCD on and waste a day ....


(K is self coloring) for those who aren't familliar with its function.

Your answer is in your own confusion... The way I desribed how to bring what dogs together was describing how to pull in the traits needed, when black and tan is desired and not produced before, nothing more, nothing less.. Giving "common folk" understanding of how these black and tans just pop up..

Where does all fawn, tan come from?? the origin of source ?? Buckskin, some more yellow some more red... and that MOST PEOPLE call Buckskin dogs YELLOW .. a TRUE YELLOW dog (Ay) stands out clearly in a yard full of buckskin varieties. I think you seem to over look the "goes without being said" .. because most of the stock has this mutation or that, and particular sub strains are more prone to carry this mutation over that. If your as educated as you seem, then you should be able to read between the lines. Because what you posted on K, and e, and various alles and locus placement if very honest, I study canine genetics and dna testing all the time. So here by understand that what "laymen" terms for colors are and what colors ARE make all the difference in the world, misinterpretation and interpretation are the creators of honesty and ignorance. Look at the ADBA color chart and you'll see true yellow stands alone, while most of the other mutations MOST associate with yellow are truly buskskin in association with bulldogs and bandogs.

Black and Red (MOST black is a form of red) mutated so that a red dog has red hair half way up and black the other half.. OR .. dog carrying black with no dilute and black with red dilute. The black and tan alle of C locus merges with B locus or mutates it to form the chocolate and tan or blue and tan and so on... Comparative sequencing of all ASIP exons and ASIP cDNAs did not reveal any differences associated with the coat color phenotype. Relative qRT-PCR analyses showed different dorsoventral skin expression intensities of the five ASIP transcripts in black-and-tan. The a(t) mutation is therefore probably a regulatory ASIP mutation that alters its dorsoventral expression pattern. That mutation in bulldogs is related to the black and red mutation of each other and 1001 ways that mutation can be expressed.

Black and tan is in many domesticated animals.. Rabits, cats, pigs, rats.. Not just dogs.

I've bred pigs, horses, cows, fish, cats, rats, rabbits, dogs, and kingsnakes....

Im sure just like you haven't showed me anything I wasn't aware of, I may not have addressed your exact question of whats going on being the seens, Formula.. .. basically the only difference here is what I see and notice what your not along with dialect, and interpretation.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:52 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Oh gosh. My head is spinning....this is a lot for me to take in LOL...
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:41 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ::::COACH:::: View Post
Oh gosh. My head is spinning....this is a lot for me to take in LOL...
thats why I speak in crayon most of the time.. I speak for the masses..
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:26 PM   #41 (permalink)
 
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Ok, so far I think I'm on the same page as you now.

I'm sorry it takes all the complication for me to consider it simple.
My one last question... in terms of allele combinations.. how are you saying buckskin is displayed? You said a true yellow dog is (Ay) what would the color buckskin look like written
in this form? I'm asking because I think your saying buckskin is different than (Ay) ? Am I wrong there?

I almost want to ask you to post pictures of the dog's phenotypes your describing, even when discussing black with no dilute and black with red dilute, but wouldn't that take us right back to the crayon I was so desperately trying to escape?? BOL.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:02 AM   #42 (permalink)
 

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Originally Posted by ames View Post
Yeah I was confused by there is not such thing as a tri as well. There is, they are not rare, they are becoming even more common and to Me appear to be the next fad like blue dogs were the last few years. Soooo many people getting Tris now. But they are American Bully's not Pit Bulls.

Important thing to remember is its not just about having the colors it's the actual color patterns that signifies if they are tri.


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Neither of my "blue tri's" are American Bullies. They are York, Gaff and Nevada primarily (no Razors Edge, Gotti or Remyline, etc) just sayin.
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:10 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Neither of my "blue tri's" are American Bullies. They are York, Gaff and Nevada primarily (no Razors Edge, Gotti or Remyline, etc) just sayin.
My American Bullies have Gaff in them farther back...


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Old 04-19-2013, 03:58 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Neither of my "blue tri's" are American Bullies. They are York, Gaff and Nevada primarily (no Razors Edge, Gotti or Remyline, etc) just sayin.
So ur dog isnt a bully but has the bully base bloodlines. So u have an am staff right?
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:18 PM   #45 (permalink)
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So ur dog isnt a bully but has the bully base bloodlines. So u have an am staff right?
Depends on your opinion of an Amstaff. Her dogs are UKC APBT's. Those are also not bully base bloodlines. RE was Amstaff and then went bully. York now has larger dogs, but don't produce American Bullies and neither do Gaff or Nevada. An American Bully isn't just an oversized Amstaff. An oversized Amstaff is just an out of standard Amstaff. American Bullies came from mixing in other breeds.

To those who think gamebred dogs are the only APBT then yeah they would consider that Amstaff, but that is an opinion thing.
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