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Old 01-05-2013, 07:30 PM   #31 (permalink)
 
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The Old Family Red Nose Strain did not need the Colby dogs to be where they are today.
And again, OFRN is NOT a bloodline. It is simply a STRAIN of the American (pit) Bull Terrier.
The bloodlines within the OFRN strain are from the breeders or dogs they are based on.
Lou himself told me before he passed that his family had nothing to do with the OFRN dogs,
and his father never once spoke of them in his lifetime.
Even more, if a red dog popped up, they culled it. They did not like the red dogs.
OFRN dogs also beat many Colby dogs in the []. This was when only the best were allowed life. They had to prove they deserved the title of ApBT!!
They were a small strain, not overproduced by pocket breeders as today.

The dog game had been going on long before Colby came around. He was simply the first to make them public.
A lot of dogmen disliked him for that.

But one thing is true: the legendary game Colby dog is just that today: Legend. The past. Today they are more in par with the AST. Bred for show.
The OFRN today have improved and continue to improve. Without the Colby dogs.

Now for the "Corvino" dogs, those with interest should keep their eyes open this year for a book.
"An Interview with Carmen Corvino." (Joe's Grandson).
I recently had dinner with men who grew up with him.
This book is to for once and for all separate the facts from the BS going around.
Bob Wallace himself considered Joe Corvino the greatest breeder of his generation. Over John P. Colby.
How many of you saw more matches than Bob Wallace did in his days?

This is not to diminish the accomplishments of Colby...
John was a great breeder, no denying that. But his family never preserved the same caliber of dogs their father and grandfather did.
"History" cannot make a dog better, by a name.

As Joe Corvino said: "The test of a family is time."
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:27 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
The Old Family Red Nose Strain did not need the Colby dogs to be where they are today.
And again, OFRN is NOT a bloodline. It is simply a STRAIN of the American (pit) Bull Terrier.
The bloodlines within the OFRN strain are from the breeders or dogs they are based on.
Lou himself told me before he passed that his family had nothing to do with the OFRN dogs,
and his father never once spoke of them in his lifetime.
Even more, if a red dog popped up, they culled it. They did not like the red dogs.
OFRN dogs also beat many Colby dogs in the []. This was when only the best were allowed life. They had to prove they deserved the title of ApBT!!
They were a small strain, not overproduced by pocket breeders as today.

The dog game had been going on long before Colby came around. He was simply the first to make them public.
A lot of dogmen disliked him for that.

But one thing is true: the legendary game Colby dog is just that today: Legend. The past. Today they are more in par with the AST. Bred for show.
The OFRN today have improved and continue to improve. Without the Colby dogs.

Now for the "Corvino" dogs, those with interest should keep their eyes open this year for a book.
"An Interview with Carmen Corvino." (Joe's Grandson).
I recently had dinner with men who grew up with him.
This book is to for once and for all separate the facts from the BS going around.
Bob Wallace himself considered Joe Corvino the greatest breeder of his generation. Over John P. Colby.
How many of you saw more matches than Bob Wallace did in his days?

This is not to diminish the accomplishments of Colby...
John was a great breeder, no denying that. But his family never preserved the same caliber of dogs their father and grandfather did.
"History" cannot make a dog better, by a name.

As Joe Corvino said: "The test of a family is time."
That would be me LOL!!! Wanted to see Corvino this summer, but as you know he couldn't make it to the show. Keep me posted on the book, I'm sure you will G! Good seeing you back on here
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:34 PM   #33 (permalink)
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... ... Look at the pedigrees themselves and put your own emotional constitutions to the side. Im partial to the OFRN as my favorite.. and YES the OFRN as a whole is a bloodline. So is COLBY and ALL OTHER dogs come from those dogs and can be highly altered by going back into those dogs or lock in traits, some over looked and lost.

If I did say need it was from pedigree research and being a breeder myself. .. the test of family is indeed time.. Whos still around besides COLBY in that purity? All action guys who take a chance and outcross with pure colby produce all aces and dimes: from mayfield -JRBBolioTmb and all the others done right. >> IM SAYING ALL THE OFRN PEOPLE are OVERLOOKING KEY elements that show they used heavy paddy and irish dogs .. which is almost exclusively what Colby used as well as the English Pilot dogs The paddy was dominant. The paddy is also where those old guys pulled in the Colby bred dogs because of their pedigree.. Follow a colby ped back is mostly paddy and kept in one family bred by JPs standards. Ol Bob Wallace is another one of those types that is a league above the rest.... Unlike colby they didn't have family to keep it in tact properly or gave up on it. Corvino may have said wallace was the greatest breeder of all time, well Hemphills broke jaw sire to Searcy Jeff was near pure colby on top even the lightener were colby dogs, and all colby on bottom. ..<<Lightener gets the credit for this dog and when you look at HEmphills Broke jaw you see its all Colby and what isnt is paddy stock. So again.. opinion of DID NOT NEED is moot, as we can see the building blocks clearly.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...ee&dog_id=1117
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:53 PM   #34 (permalink)
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built on Wallaces Searcy Jeff and had that Old lightner gyp in there with another 1/4 shot sired by Centipede who Colby paddy and paddy dogs to a shippley/corcorans gas house/paddy stock.. again they used the best of the paddy stock they could find if not through Tudors dogs it was Colby himself in a couple of Lighteners crosses and of course heinzl had a good batch of corvino dogs. .. the reason all those clicked with colby on the cross is because REALLY TECHNICALLY ..

Lloyds PADDY/Sweeneys GASHOUSE and Lloyds PILOT/GAS HOUSE are the FOUNDATION of almost every strain of dog rooted in the USA with the name APBT .. All the OFR go back to Paddy or other irish dogs right off the boat. Lightener had some old dogs that were around before all the irish dogs and no one knew where they came from .. HMMM NO ONE KNEW and everyone had irish dogs and paddy dogs and english dogs so to say that all his croanies would say NO ONE KNEW where he got his dogs, that says a lot in very few words. Lightener quit his dogs cause they were to big and so he went to the straight paddy dogs. Hmmm.. He had paddy blood all in the red dogs he had so why the jump ship? Because of that old blood he had infused with those dogs. The blood no one knew where it came from. Big bulldogues.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:44 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
... ... Look at the pedigrees themselves and put your own emotional constitutions to the side. Im partial to the OFRN as my favorite.. and YES the OFRN as a whole is a bloodline. So is COLBY and ALL OTHER dogs come from those dogs and can be highly altered by going back into those dogs or lock in traits, some over looked and lost.

If I did say need it was from pedigree research and being a breeder myself. .. the test of family is indeed time.. Whos still around besides COLBY in that purity? All action guys who take a chance and outcross with pure colby produce all aces and dimes: from mayfield -JRBBolioTmb and all the others done right. >> IM SAYING ALL THE OFRN PEOPLE are OVERLOOKING KEY elements that show they used heavy paddy and irish dogs .. which is almost exclusively what Colby used as well as the English Pilot dogs The paddy was dominant. The paddy is also where those old guys pulled in the Colby bred dogs because of their pedigree.. Follow a colby ped back is mostly paddy and kept in one family bred by JPs standards. Ol Bob Wallace is another one of those types that is a league above the rest.... Unlike colby they didn't have family to keep it in tact properly or gave up on it. Corvino may have said wallace was the greatest breeder of all time, well Hemphills broke jaw sire to Searcy Jeff was near pure colby on top even the lightener were colby dogs, and all colby on bottom. ..<<Lightener gets the credit for this dog and when you look at HEmphills Broke jaw you see its all Colby and what isnt is paddy stock. So again.. opinion of DID NOT NEED is moot, as we can see the building blocks clearly.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1117] :: HEMPHILL'S BROKE JAW
"Strike that, now reverse it" (Willy Wonka for ya)....Wallace said Corvino was the greatest breeder of the day, not the other way around. Sorry Stan, couldn't let that go LOL!
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Old 01-06-2013, 03:02 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Hahaha.. Yeh,.. Got caught slippin.
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Old 01-06-2013, 04:11 PM   #37 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
... ... Look at the pedigrees themselves and put your own emotional constitutions to the side. Im partial to the OFRN as my favorite.. and YES the OFRN as a whole is a bloodline.
OFRN is a STRAIN of American (pit) Bull Terrier. There are bloodlines within the strain.
As a member of the Old Family Red Nose Registry, this is the first thing people need to learn when they come on board:
OFRN IS NOT A BLOODLINE!!
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Old 01-06-2013, 05:28 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Bloodline genetically speaking founded strains and substrains .. bloodline is breed of dog. Blood is the old world breeders term for DNA. There are many bloodlines (breeds) of dog. and Those breeds/bloodlines have various strains and substrains from it.
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:41 PM   #39 (permalink)
 
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perfect definition for the word bloodline firehazard.this has turned out to be one of the best and informitive discussions ive had on this subject. and i think a few more people other than myself are learning something-lol
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:51 PM   #40 (permalink)
 
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so my next question acording to the definition is (unless i misu nderstood) if ofrn and colby are both bloodlines(which is breed of dog) does that mean there are 2 different BREEDS of what is now called the apbt? so if i had 1 of these old time ofrn and a colby next to me are they both apbts? seriously confused and just not getting it.or are you saying that the ofrn and colby is now the" modern"apbt???????feel free not to answer if ya give up on me LOL. but how im understanding it that makes sense is that the apbt is the bloodline(breed) colby and ofrn are strains and all else are sub-strains????

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Old 01-06-2013, 08:15 PM   #41 (permalink)
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While I always respect your knowledge/opinions Stan, I have to side with Goemon on the strain vs. bloodline discussion. It is what I have read and been told by a top OFRN authority/breeder. But hey, what would the world be like if everyone agreed?! LOL This whole thread has been food for thought for those with hungry minds, kudos
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Old 01-06-2013, 09:40 PM   #42 (permalink)
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While I always respect your knowledge/opinions Stan, I have to side with Goemon on the strain vs. bloodline discussion. It is what I have read and been told by a top OFRN authority/breeder. But hey, what would the world be like if everyone agreed?! LOL This whole thread has been food for thought for those with hungry minds, kudos
I certainly agree; and was founded in that school of thought. I kinda always keep my mind free and what I stumbled upon was misunderstanding or multiple understandings of the word "bloodline" itself from the beginning depending on region and culture. All Im saying is that IMO it is a reverse understanding of the word. In most all cases most still say strain by layman terms because of that inwhich I mentioned: use and understanding of the word. Really in biological speaking its: offspring, decendants, species.. and whats funny is that until late 90s into 2000 there was no real way to distinguish between species and all wolves and domestic dogs were under canis lupus.
Quote:
"....Breeds of dogs can not be distinguished from each other by any known anatomical attribute or even biochemical genetic test, including DNA fingerprinting. Since a given breed of dog can not be defined by any scientific means currently known, our contention is that it is not possible to write any ordinance or law that would single them out for special treatment since they cannot be so defined in a legal sense. "Recently I attended a canine genetics workshop at Texas A & M University in which it was further emphasized that there is no biochemical genetic test that can even distinguish wolves from domestic dogs. "....I would taxonomically identify all wolves, wolf hybrids and domestic dogs as the species Canis lupus. Technically, the domestic dog and wolf hybrids should be designated as the sub-species "domesticus". I. Lehr Brisbin, Jr., Research Professor, Savannah River Ecology Laboratory, The University of Georgia. Letter, 30, Jan. 1990
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The DNA evidence, however, shows that they are all derived from the wolf. DNA from all dogs is over 99% identical to that of a wolf, while the wolf and coyote DNAs, for example, are over 4% different from each other. This means, surprisingly, that all of the diversity of dog types in the world today came from a single source, the wolfAbout the author. Steven Potter, PhD, is a Professor of Pediatrics, in the Division of Developmental Biology, at Children’s Hospital Medical Center in Cincinnati. He has authored Designer Genes: A New Era in the Evolution of Man, published by Random House. He has also written over one hundred science papers and co-authored the third edition of the medical school textbook, Larsen’s Human Embryology.
Designer Genes: A New Era in the Evolution of Man: Steven Potter: 9781400069057: Amazon.com: Books
Which is why I got out of the wolf rescue type stuff back when I caught bulldog fever (01') while also vet tech at the SPCA. For two reasons: politics is bull and because I found through breeding and obtained bred wolfdogs and readings on the wolf that: there is no wolf hybrid that it is a wolfdog and that everything disappears back into the wolf. Even up here I seen a blue wolfdog from the result of a blue APBT X a wolfdog, the other look like spikey wire haired dogs. Because of that and my new understanding of Colby, Heinzl, and them other ace family breeders work; I know that just how everything disappears or is drastically altered by the wolf, it is the same with different bloodlines of dog and their strains and sub strains. Well Stratton says before getting into bulldogs or while a student of, one should study the wolf and its entirety. Thats my foot hold. Even though in general talk I'll know what people mean and wont disect the conversation for technicalities: however when asked what makes a bloodline 101 .. Had to disect it.. Thats why technically all the APBT are sub strains of Paddy , Gas House and or Pilot by way of strain back to the bloodline of the dog under the canis lupis. So in all of this I just proved myself wrong and to a new understanding altogether. Hahaha. Maybe in the aspect of APBT, AST, SBT, ABD, BT, AB and other bulldog and bandogs only .. then we could use my theory because everything is trumped by COLBY or OFRN: otherwise my last paragraph and understanding of wolf genes and canine genetics backed by scientific biological truth, trumped both our theories.
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Last edited by Firehazard; 01-06-2013 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 01-06-2013, 09:59 PM   #43 (permalink)
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WOLF
DOG<Fighting dog of Gaul-Alaunt was result of bred stock imported to England from France} species
bulldog < bloodline
terrier<now a bloodline, fighting terrier strain of bulldog per ibid "first terriers registered in England in 1850s was from inbreeding pit bulldogs" also from: Full text of "The new book of the dog : a comprehensive natural history of British dogs and their foreign relatives, with chapters on law, breeding, kennel management, and veterinary treatment" the roughest of terriers came from the fighting bulldogs that came in all sizes depicted in Normandy conquests and other art up to 19th century. They just made the best lil fighter breeding dogs family pedigree tighter and tighter. Terrier means tenacity an old word used once like we use the term game or fastlane.
APBT< 50/50% Bulldog and Terrier: strain
All the dogs out there under Paddy, Gas House and Pilot...: sub strains ..
family are the inbred linebred dogs from those sub strains.

When saying family; people think of blood, in doing so they confuse the term with bloodline and there it is.

Since they can all disappear into Colby or OFRN and all dogs can disappear into the wolf well.. .. we all have a world to learn.
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Old 01-06-2013, 10:10 PM   #44 (permalink)
 
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So it took awhile but the think tank managed to do it . This is how it is. Canine lupus is the bloodline------- our breed as great as it is ----is a strain..... And all your little favorite famous ass dogs whom you deemed fit enough to be bloodlines are actually considered "sub-strains"... Hey welcome to bloodlines 101.so reiterated... Your dog is a sub-strain of wolf.....
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:12 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Fair enough Stan. Obviously anything can be debated when put under a scrutiny, especially in the game of wordplay. We may have not untied the knot in this discussion, we may have even created another knot, but at least we know where eachother is coming from. I will end by saying the wolf is badass. Not sure how it would do in the [] LOL, but then again I think the APBT would have a helluva time in the wild
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