Goemon (Got the BAN STICK)

Just remember....not every country has people with weak stomachs.
There are countries that allow the American (pit) Bull Terrier to be what they really are. Nothing illegal about it there, and nothing the USA, HSUS, Feds, whatever can do about it.
But anyone that don't know what type of dogs they have ought not have them.
To a trained eye it takes only ten minutes to tell what's in a dog. If it will quit or not. If it's got potential.
And the heart never lies.

But the conformation standards are based off of winning [] dogs, that had the full ability to perform.
Most people, and most breeders know what they have in their dogs. If they are performance bred or not.
If not what the bleep are they breeding for?

But how a dog is bred, PLUS what it can do is the key.
The breeder is the one that puts the pieces together.
John P. Colby said it best on preserving gameness, by family breeding.
By line breeding dogs one is able to cut off the bad qualities, and maintain the good.
Those who scatter breed show they are not happy with what they have.

KMdogs

That is thw new standard in that people base what they have off of how the dog is bred and what it conforms to, based on the pit dogs of yester year or not, keeping true to the animal is function. If there is no ability the heart, willingness and function becomes bred out.. Many of these so called apbts are nothing more than american staffordshires coming from different yards, lines and standards. Having so called drive on the flirt pole, spring pole, weight pulling, a bit of prey drive or dog aggression doesnt make the dog accurate to breed. Best case scenario, you have a high end Bulldog that just so happebs to be conformation correct but use is near bar none or on top in the field.. Worst case, and most usual, american staffordshire that comforms with adba... Doesnt matter if the animal came from the best of the best, it is what it is..

The beauty and simplicity is all in writting, if you want to keep to that set forth, it is not pick and choose to the liking. The truth is, in other places around the world, many will put what most call apbts to shame in any form of ability.. Legal and not, few private yards keeping as accurate as possible.. However these are high end bulldogs and by no means is this a cut down on what they are feeding

__________________
"It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are" - Cummings

"If think you can't, you're right. If think you can, you're right." - Hatton

Firehazard

EVERYTHING IS FACT... RE READ THE POST because out of context you've taken it in your own opinion. I Stated nothing that is not scientific fact and history.
Yes I have Armitages book, and yes Panama was near all COLBY and what wasn't was direct shots of Paddy from other sources. I didn't say Pilot was colby I said theres more Pilot in colby than in OFRN, which would make sense as OFRN is supposed to be irish not english make up and yes .. OFRN came about from crossing the COLBY and OF sub strains of bulldogs. You can create your own view and what not if you want to however I keep it simple. Its DNA and in terms of canine DNA all APBT sub strains come from two primary sources. One of those sources is Colby the other source is the OF blood found in OFRN dogs and those particular Carver dogs. OFRN wouldnt be without the Colby influx.. PERIOD if so .. then why is that not the history in facts, books, and pedigrees..

__________________
Keep on Bulldoggin'...
The views expressed herein this post do not condone any violations of the "Animal Welfare Act of 1976"
http://awic.nal.usda.gov/nal_display...ment_default=0

Firehazard

FLY of PANAMA...............
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...ee&dog_id=1802

ALL DOWN HER 3rd GEN ... She was 7/8 Colby and 1/8 OF ..


ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [9258] :: ARMITAGE'S TRAMP II

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [9260] :: ARMITAGE'S GILDA-

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [9262] :: CLARK'S OLD SPORT
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [104529] :: CLARK'S PEGGY

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [9260] :: ARMITAGE'S GILDA-

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1108] :: CLARK'S TRAMP (ARMITAGE'S KAGER)


ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1109] :: CLARK'S TRIXIE
(Old Family here... Old Lightner{going back to his OLD FAMILY which points to the spanish when finding the term historically outside of Strattons books and that no one knew origin his secret he gave up on cause to big; spanish bulldogs} X Corcoran essentially) [ Lightner gave up on that stock and went for the pure paddy dogs even though they lost to his own stock time after time]

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [5669] :: CLARK'S SPIDER

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [84427] :: CLARK'S JOLLY

__________________
Keep on Bulldoggin'...
The views expressed herein this post do not condone any violations of the "Animal Welfare Act of 1976"
http://awic.nal.usda.gov/nal_display...ment_default=0

Firehazard

Can't spread rep... Someone else who can comprehend what your reading without getting all unhinged with irrational thoughts invoked by emotions. Passion is good you need it for these dogs, however ignorance rides on the waves of emotional tide. Hell man we are all always learning and those who think not: learn not.. Yes, I do and usually ignore most of it until I've been taken out of context or to many blind people are following someone with limited vision themselves.

__________________
Keep on Bulldoggin'...
The views expressed herein this post do not condone any violations of the "Animal Welfare Act of 1976"
http://awic.nal.usda.gov/nal_display...ment_default=0

Saint Francis

The criteria that you are speaking of, that which defines the APBT, can not be spoken of openly on the internet without placing one's self at a disadvantage with the law. So the discussion of preservation hits a dead end right there IMO, as does any assumption of what is kept on such and such yard.

__________________
INTO THE MOUTH OF MADNESS

I AM THE WOLF IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING

OFRN: THE DEVIL'S LAP DOG

SOMETIMES KILLED, NEVER DEFEATED

Goemon (Got the BAN STICK)

Very well put Saint Francis!
And as you know, it would look bad on my profession to associate with anything such, being involved in law enforcement myself.
But there are those of us who know the whole breed suffers because of dogs being put in the wrong hands.
Bad owners produce the negative rep for the whole breed, even though the bad dogs are junk and pretend-a-pits!
But banning individuals is considered "unconstitutional." BS!
The HSUS and AC will never support a ban by those wanna be "dawg men."
It is they who keep it from happening!!!
Why? Because those punks and their mutts are the magic pen of all their propaganda against the real ApBT's that they hate!
They hate those dogs with a blind passion.
For this reason, many private breeders never advertise their dogs, or sell to the general public.
Which is good and I hope continues. Most pet owners couldn't handle true ApBT's.
And that's a fact...............

Odin`s_BlueDragon

i have to jump in and say that i 100% agree with u! the real APBTs are not the issue at all. and all the thug/gangsta wanna be's are the ones that are makin the waves for everyone else.

on FB i follow this "bully bashing board" and this dude was trying to say his mutt was an "xxl pit bull" and when we tried to set him straight his response was "well she's a pit bull cuz shes too big to be a bully" WTF!!! some people wouldnt know a real APBT if we threw it at them. dog looked like a neo mastiff mix.

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Goemon (Got the BAN STICK)

Because things are written in books, that makes it true?
And because a Pedigree is online, does that make it true?
They are changed repeatedly, LOL.

OFRN were around before the Colby dogs. There were good dogs from Colby back then and people bred to them.
That doesn't mean the dogs are based off Colby.
OFRN is the preservation of the Irish fighting dogs, the Old Family Reds.
When these OFR's were crossed to black nosed fighting dogs, the OFRN legacy began.
They were of higher value to many than any Colby dog ever was.
And I know of Colby dogs who quit cold turkey against OFRN dogs!

Robert Hemphill said it best of the OFRN strain: The gamest ever bred!
But that's history...pre-1976. Doesn't matter today.



Saint Francis said it best "Those seeking knowledge must also choose the educator wisely so the wisdom learned is of the truth"

zohawn

then lets change the subject

__________________
"How bout you learn to spread accurate information and not encourage peoples who's dogs LOOK LIKE MUTTS and tell them they look like Colby dogs. You spread to stupidest lies of almost anyone on this forum. Your google knowledge is BS just as your posts are. The only time your posts are at all correct is when your copying something KM said, other than piggy backing off of his actual knowledge you have no idea what you are talking about." -American_Pit13

Where in there did fighting serve any purpose other than for old men to gamble and a breed of dog was created? -American_Pit13

Firehazard

Im well aware of the history of the OFRN it is my favorite strain which is also bloodline... Robert Hemphill said the same thing I did, they are a strain, everything under them is a substrain. OFRN was not before COLBY LOL Old Family was .. not to be confused. Every ped you can of all them greats are just that, and most are crossed with COLBY stuff.. Sparks said he like the Old family blood and Colby dogs he had.. hmmmm... E. Crenshaw had them dogs too. A book is another opinion however when books and pedigrees align there has got to be some truth to that. There are very few OFRN dogs without COLBY in them, they are still their own strain because they have some old dna harboring that COLBY doesnt, I've stated this time and again. Also that the lightner X Colby and Feeley were all lining up the old paddy blood, in books interviews and pedigrees.. Heinzl said he Colby, and Lightner all got pups out of the same litter. The proof is in the pudding.. and I stand by the fact that COLBY and OFRN strains or bloodlines will alter any other sub strain or family of dogs introduced to more than they will alter the COLBY or OFRN. Because thats DNA and power of coding DNA stores history of coding and each block in a ped has 256 ancestors donating DNA to that specimen and what it has to offer. No matter how you look at it unless you just lie to yourself or believe the stuff that makes you feel good, Red devil had colby blood. I love OFRN dogs my first love was the strain, however Im OCD with truth and facts and even more DNA and genetics. Its really easy to understand if you study and genetics and biology practice the punit square and you will see how easy it is. There is FEW strains or dogs of OFRN still alive that has no affiliation with colby. I like GeronimoII, Red Danger, Grch Berry(the only gr ch hemphill) .. MY FAVORTIE 3.. and I've seen pure clouse dogs that were 98% pure corvino, corocon, lightner stock back to Ol family but you cannot get away from the colby influx , someWHERE they always cross in. Plenty of dogs being rolled legally outside the USA so there is really no excuse, Colby with many GR CH past to present is still strong and elite in Mexico and growing in Japan where they practice Cajun rules, although not popular among most game dog men they poo poo the OFRN and COLBY dogs alike. Never did I say OFRN was based off of colby, I said the TWO .. COLBY and OFRN were based off of PADDY .. GasHouse and Pilot.. while the OFRN had the OF strains going back to predate colby they had been crossed and will forever carry the DNA from that.

It doesnt make the OFRN less vaulable or important or even powerful in the DNA material it has to offer. Red Devil was partial Colby: Just simple facts.

__________________
Keep on Bulldoggin'...
The views expressed herein this post do not condone any violations of the "Animal Welfare Act of 1976"
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Goemon (Got the BAN STICK)

The Lightner dogs were around prior to the civil war, which means they were before Colby was born. They just didn't have the name they have today, OFRN.
My point in the matter is this: The OFRN strain did not NEED Colby to continue on. Sure there are dogs from him that were bred into the mix.
Look at it this way: Had Colby not been born, would anyone say the ApBT not be around today? If anyone says yes, they are dead wrong.
But here's another question: Where did the Colby line originate? From multiple dogs bred by others. He didn't create the dogs out of nothing.
Colby himself was considered a peddler by many dogmen back then, for selling to the public.
I wouldn't call him that as he bred some great dogs.

And as the OP put, "Red Devil was 5/8 Corvino, 1/4 Clark's mixer off Tramp and 1/8 Colby."
It was the Corvino blood that was desired in Red Devil, aka Creed's Iron Dusty,
just as Earl Tudor desired the Corvino blood in Dibo, who was said to be cold.

As for the Gas House Dog, aka Mc Donalds Grip, he was born in the 1870's.
He died around 1882. No connection with John P. Colby. Born in 1875.
And none of the Colby's prior to J.P. were into dogs.
One of my male dogs looks nearly identical to Grip, but much bigger than 31 pounds.

John Sullivan, whom Jim Corcoran came to the states to fight, later found dogs of the Gas House blood.
The men who bred them happened to be from South Boston, John Quinn and the Burke Brothers.
I have a letter from the daughter of Mc Donald written to "The Dog Fancy" which I will put up when I have more time.
On record the longest match in American history known of was between Tugmans Paddy and Lloyds Toby.
It lasted five hours and nine minutes without a turn by either dog.
These things were written before Colby entered the dog scene.

Yes that name is still in Mexico, but the dogs no longer bear the name.
Cartels have total control on matching and nobody likes to do business with scumbags like them.
Pay or die is the only option, and if you cheat them the cowards go after ones family.
Japan is the place and to them the only thing that matters is WINNING.

Firehazard

Tramp was colby, and Red devil is partial colby.. period.. So was Centipede, Braddock, ... Theres nothing here to argue. Lightner and Corvino used Colby bred dogs at one time or another and theres nothing you can do about it. The Dna is there why they did, dunno.. as a breeder I know they needed that tight paddy irish bred stock. Look at paper or online ped and thats what you'll see.

Tudors Black jack had less colby then any of those dogs.. They bred him into Ol Family Lightner, then also into a colby bitch by henry, .. the later was more successful.. dunno why but the scores and marks in history are there. Tacoma come down from browns dempsy, but countless off of queen and black jack jr. He kept that paddy blood tight from all 3 corners of the US at that time. McCoy has some colby bred dogs I seen the paper peds. Dont get it twisted Im not saying anything that cannot be historically found or scientifically proven. Seems in those times of confusion Heinzl sets the record straight. Until any of us become as versed and well proven as Heinzl, anything we say is simple opinion, JMO

You want your questions answered people? Look to the old timers and you'll see the pieces fit.

COLBY is PURE and untouched .. OFRN has COLBY in it PERIOD no matter what you look at, or whether they "needed" Colby or not.. which I said they obviously felt they needed the paddy out through colby to outcross within itself much like Colby has done ever since.. Your right predates colby by a smidge and Colby has the best of the old stuff like paddy and Pilot which is what I've been saying is the tie between the two strains. And even in GeronimoII who is built off of centipede whos about half and half colby/ OF .. Lightner had the red nosed red dogs much bigger than anyone elses and I touched on a gentic theory that is most logical to his old family dogs he refered to that no one knew where they came. In those days, Old family didn't mean irish, it meant spanish which predated english let alone the irish, there were spaniards from florida to alabama and across the keys setting up base campse taming the "savages". I come from Halbrooks/Kelley's both also half Indian on my moms side I got some irish and reasons to trace ancestry, and we had an outlaw grt uncle that was all in the racket he had big dogs and they came with them on the wagon train from alabama that were refered to as Old Family and his irish dogs he called paddy dogs. ... that sure coencides with simple talk from Lightener who left his old stock that predated colby because it was too big and he couldnt bring it down even with the corcoran out..

Also pilot is english and any OFRN person claming pilot is the source or a strong block in the OFRN just needs to sit down with their irish spewage. ALTHOUGH it is the very kin of pilot that was also the foundation for the show bred bull terrier, along with Colby bred dogs later on, follow the history and pedigrees, the books and you will find this, there were red noses in that litter of english dogs by the way. The first terriers registered in enland in 1830 was red nosed red dogs brother and sister from inbreeding pit bulldogs. So see there were red noses before OFRN and its interesting that a good portion of these OFRN dogs were down from black or black nosed and buckskinned. Yes it took a certain cross to get red noses.. well I can tell you that red noses come from two black nose dogs created the mutation. In lightners stock it came from his Old family dogs which were most likely spanish bulldogs which were the orginal DDB "fighting dog of Gaul" the source of the alaunt as well.

Yes Japan is the spot, they know genetics like most americans know football, indonesia has some good people too... Czech has good dogmen too. Yet all of these places still look to and honor old dogmen and their dogs pedigrees as soon as theyve had a good run and know what they are doing with breeding. Again they have clean ethics and even the dogs that lose get massive amounts of love in Czech, Japan (alligator and redboy are their favorites right now), and through out pacific islands. I've seen the clips, children and women, music food and beverages.. They care to the losing dog almost immediatley without shunning any glory from the winner. This constiutes good ethics that I read about in our own american [] dog history.

There will always be scumbags for sure we can only hope there are those like Tudor and Heinzl who would sure whoop a man for some stupid cold hearted behavior.

If it can be said it has been said... IF you have questions then read the Vintage books most are spendy and out of print, read them time and again, study the pedigrees and the dogs... Follow written history as well. Anything I 've stated can be found archived and is historic fact, accepted as fact, or can be scientifically proven genetically and in the [controlled environment].

Take what you will and leave this rest.. Hope it helps ya. ..... food for thought .. or food for trolls ... stick a fork in it, Im done..

__________________
Keep on Bulldoggin'...
The views expressed herein this post do not condone any violations of the "Animal Welfare Act of 1976"
http://awic.nal.usda.gov/nal_display...ment_default=0

Goemon (Got the BAN STICK)

Well I'll be glad when the Interview With Carmen Corvino" gets published.
It will show the world the truth behind the best breeder of his time, Joe Corvino.
Best of all it will separate fact from the BS going around out there, about real OFRN dogs...
...dogs that continue to this day, which have produced more Champions than any other in the history of the OFRN.

I'll get back on this when I get in touch to Lou Colby's grandson, who breeds them to this day.
And if I find the email I received from Lou before he passed (I printed it out), I'll copy it.
Never in all his fathers years did he even mention OFRN dogs. They did not have red nose dogs, as they culled them all.

And yes, it was breeding the Old Family Reds with black nose dogs that produced the OFRN strain.
That is why it is a strain of ApBT. It carries on the genetics of the Irish fighting dogs legendary for their gameness and [] skills.
And black nose dogs can indeed throw a red nose pup. Seen it myself.
But two red nose dogs will never throw a black nose pup...

Again, read the first post, and check out the link.
Who would know more about this strain than the breeder who has bred them longer than anyone else alive today?

Rudy4747

This has been a great read. I have seen this debate on more then one occasion. I have seen many people point the same facts of these dogs and still see things differently. All I niece reading from both of you. As far as Colby goes and the use of his dogs in the the mix well what I can is great families brought Irish dogs and others brought English dogs. this is very true But with out the Colby family the American pit bull terrier would be a very different scene. Just imagine the dogs that would not exists with out the blood from the colby dogs.