Rudy4747

Very well said. i been Trying to say the same ting for years to these people trying to criticize me for showing my dogs.

Goemon (Got the BAN STICK)

Funny thing is, these friendly debates can be a good thing, and sometimes both sides can learn something they have missed.
When I studied Critical Thinking I had to learn to "think outside the box."
That is look at everything with a neutral eye.
What I see is two different points of view, both acquired through strong self learning and different paths of life.
But now I find myself wanting to dig deeper and refresh my mind.
Also, I guess I am not clear at times in what I say, or attempt to.
Here's a fair and honest conclusion to the point I was attempting to make:
If there were never Colby dogs, the OFRN would have been just fine and other dogs would have taken their place...and if there weren't Corvino, Williams, De Cordova, Wallace, ect, bloodlines the OFRN would still be here.. Other dogs from other families would have taken their place.
The dog world was bigger than many attempt to make it to be.

Just remember, a few bricks don't make pyramid's foundation.
Flip a pedigree horizontally and you see a Pyramid.
The smaller numbers (of dogs) are at the top, while the number greatens at the bottom.
Having a dog or two on the bottom left from one family is a small number after all,
when you count all the others.
The OFRN only has a touch of Colby, IMHO.

Saint Francis

Good work fellas. Cooler heads prevailed...and in that environment, everyone learns. Like a crock pot full of chili this discussion will only become better down the road...as it slow cooks LOL! You know it's getting late when I begin using food analogies

__________________
INTO THE MOUTH OF MADNESS

I AM THE WOLF IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING

OFRN: THE DEVIL'S LAP DOG

SOMETIMES KILLED, NEVER DEFEATED

904bullys

Thanks for the reminder, time to ear. But in all seriousness this is certainly one of the more informative and educated threads I've followed in some time

__________________
Gameness first

Firehazard

Growing up in contracting and building houses from the ground up... in a foundation any faulty bricks and the structure is toast... You can't logically play that IF there never was, card.. seriously? If there never was Arabians, thoroughbreds wouldn't exist... it is the same for Colby and the OFRN .. OFRN has colby a smidge or half does not matter in all the building blocks colby is there. It would genetically be a completely different animal.
In colby, colby is there.. go back far enough and paddy outs are there as are gas house and pilot. Colby is a genetic part of OFRN. However both are Strains of the sub species bulldog from the species wolf and all the other APBTs out there are sub strains from those two strains Colby and OFRN.

__________________
Keep on Bulldoggin'...
The views expressed herein this post do not condone any violations of the "Animal Welfare Act of 1976"
http://awic.nal.usda.gov/nal_display...ment_default=0

904bullys

Just think of how many different dog breeds Colby blood has influenced... Boston Terriers, Bull Terriers, American Bulldogs, Boxers, of course APBT, Bullies and Andrade. Probably French Bulldogs, though Im not sure. I probably only touched on half of them. Anymore you know of

__________________
Gameness first

Goemon (Got the BAN STICK)

Yes I am dead serious and stand behind what I put up.
John P. Colby was one man, and had he not been born the ApBT would still be here today, as the fighting dogs were before him.
So would the OFRN Strain.

On a side note, regarding dogs, I have read that the wolves came from Chihuahuas.
Do I believe it? No. But the point is even science is divided into opinion groups and no two see eye to eye.

Goemon (Got the BAN STICK)

Also, any Colby dogs WAY back in my dogs pedigrees are 60+ years.
That blood (Colby) has no effect on these dogs today.
Only dogs that matter are the first 14 in a pedigree.

Red Devil 8xW was heavy Corvino and he had the traits of Corvino dogs.
He died at age 14 due to a kennel accident.
Before he died he killed three of his sons who were in their prime.
He was a finisher. He died dead game. And he wasn't a winner because of the 1/8 Colby in him.

Firehazard

DNA is DNA .. .. in a 7 gen. there are 256 ancestors. EACH ancestor has the genetic material for 256 ancestors so thats 20,000+ sources for genetic material in one dog/offspring. I know that he and any other animal wouldnt be what they are if it wasnt for the genetic material donated to them in a 7 gen.

The over insuation of pride is unbecoming, I don't favor one over the other I love them both equally. No one insuated that he was better cause of the colby. HE wouldnt be the same house with different material.

Remember there are 20,000+ sources for DNA in a 7 gen ultimately, as each dog carries DNA thus genetic coding for 256 ancestors. To breed a family or a sub strain or a strain (bloodline) of dogs its good to keep that in mind. In the old days they called that blood; its DNA. Thus those claiming their 1/64 injun blood (im 2/3). Because mtDna and DNA go back thousands of years...

I like both OFRN and COLBY; both are the foundations for the masses and both reintroduced to any of those sub strains are more dominate and the cleanest source for an outcross....or reintro to original "blood". It is also possible to take Norrods oldest and best and Colbys best Paddy stock and twist the two back and BAM there you will see resurface OF dogs. But OFRN guys hate it when I say that. I dont know why, given the chance one could take colbys and a pure clouse or norrod and line it up with the colby in the heart of the ped adding a lil to both sides and squeeze it out.. and the first 50/50 cross would be OF dogs resurfaced; one could purify that in no time as it takes 10 generation to make a sub strain or a family. No other stock as clean as COLBY or OFRN (genuinely speaking of course)

__________________
Keep on Bulldoggin'...
The views expressed herein this post do not condone any violations of the "Animal Welfare Act of 1976"
http://awic.nal.usda.gov/nal_display...ment_default=0

Firehazard

as it stand the perfect Old family bulldog is ... GrCh Banjo .. which neither Colby nor OFRN can claim.. but both rather and he is a product of Carver stacking the tight fitzwaters Goldie, Rascal, with the best boudreaux of that time. Boudreaux of course is built on Blind Billy which is predominatley corvino. Ironically no other fastlane bulldogs look like this perfect bulldog speciman. Well .. cross the best OFRN and the best COLBY and you'll see a whole litter if you use the right dogs. 7 gen, 256 ancestors carrying DNA from 20,000+ ancestors .. do the homework and put the pieces where they fit.

__________________
Keep on Bulldoggin'...
The views expressed herein this post do not condone any violations of the "Animal Welfare Act of 1976"
http://awic.nal.usda.gov/nal_display...ment_default=0

Goemon (Got the BAN STICK)

I'm guilty there, on the pride, LOL. Why? Because I own real OFRN dogs that are in the fastlane.
OFRN dogs to this day carry what the modern Colby does not: GAMENESS!
IMO the true Colby dogs ended their expert breeding in 1941, when John P. retired from it.
I have an article written by Indian Sonny that brings a clear picture of what I am trying to say:

Mr John P Colby was an active breeder for many years and produced some of the best dogs of his time. Much of his foundation stock was from the Gas House and Burke strains, as were the dogs of many other breeders. The difference in the quality of the dogs Mr Colby produced was the result of breeding principles he employed. Also, Mr Colby in my opinion possessed a very important attribute, which I refer to as a gift.

Mr Colby practiced a simplified version of genetics, Best to Best, selective breeding.


Best to Best does not mean performing dogs alone. It entails all aspects of the dogs, from performance to pedigree. The most obvious qualities would be gameness, biting power, talent, stamina and a great bloodline. A bloodline is the result of a breeders influence.

Over the years dogs bred by Mr Colby began to exhibit physical and mental characteristics such as conformation, colour and gameness which distinguished them. These dogs were then referred to as Colby Dogs. Thus we have the Colby Bloodline. People were proud to say, "This here is a pure Colby dog". This sounds simple; and it leads people to ask; why there were not more top breeders? I believe deciding on what is Best to Best is the key.

I'm not sure that every dog Mr Colby bred to was Dead game; and I'm equally sure he did not breed to every Dead game dog he owned. This is where the gift comes in. It seems to be an in-born sense or ability. I believe most outstanding accomplishments have been made by men who were endowed with a gift for their respective fields.

I do not believe that man knows enough about genetics at this time to produce great animals; and he most certainly didn't know enough in the days of Mr Colby. Race horse people spend millions of dollars a year, trying to produce great horses, with only marginal success. Similarly, there is no pattern for producing Great dogs.
The most essential qualities a breeder may possess are; dedication, a gift, a knowledge of Best to Best, and money might come in handy. If a breeder combines these attributes he is likely to produce, with luck, a great strain of dogs.

It doesn't take too much effort to recall the great Colby dogs of the past. These dogs were bred from the pit and for the pit.

But all of this brings us to a very important question; When a strain of dogs that were once highly regarded, such as Colby's, stops producing consistently good pit dogs, is this strain still to be considered good? I have heard people say, "I know he's a cur, but the blood is there". While this is true in many cases, I wonder how long we can continue to breed to curs and hope to produce game pit dogs.

What is good blood and how long will it remain good if we continue to breed to dogs, who do not possess the qualities of their ancestors? While great breeders can breed to dogs who themselves do not exhibit good qualities; can the average breeder afford to take this gamble?

I have seen strains of dogs that have not produced dogs fitting this description for many years, and people who are active in the sport refer to them as good blood or good brood stock. Many seem to proceed under the assumption, that once a bloodline is good it remains good forever. Many well-meaning people have continued to breed Colby dogs exclusively, thinking all that was necessary to preserve the quality of the strain, was to breed to a dog that had the name Colby on his pedigree.


I believe that we have to continuously strive to improve the strain, in order to keep it as good as it was or is. It's an accepted theory, that in order for an institution to continue, it must change and continuously seek to improve. To preserve a bloodline, there is more required than just breeding to dogs whose pedigree shows a particular name. Change is required in order to prevent change in the quality of dogs produced. The Colby strain was developed by change.
I have heard people say, that the dogs of yesteryear were gamer than those of today. Could it be, in some cases, because we have tried to play Pat and in doing so have lost ground. The people that have bred Colby dogs exclusively for these many years, thinking they were doing what was best, have perhaps underestimated their own ability to breed good dogs.


Were the dogs of yesteryear really superior? I'm sure many dog men of the past would think we have it too easy, because we don't have to grow secret vegetables and cook our dog's food or boil their water. Penicillin has replaced many old remedies, making better dog care possible. I have read some diets that top dog men used. While some were good, none could compete with any good commercial dog food available in countless supermarkets. The poorest feeder today is able to provide better nutrition than the best feeder of yesteryear. We also have refrigeration and other conveniences.

It is not my intention to criticise old-timers and their methods. How many of us would be feeding as many dogs if we had to cope with the same adverse conditions? I think our mission however, is to pick up where they left off, emulating their objectives rather than their methods. The Colby dogs of the past, fit the description of good blood, as their pit records indicate. The Colby strain was developed on the principle of Best to Best. When that principle is no longer employed there is bound to be a drastic change in quality.

In a very short period of time a great strain of dogs can be reduced to a strain that can do no more than refer to their pedigree and say "My great, great, grand-daddy was a pit dog....I think!"

Goemon (Got the BAN STICK)

Hmmm...I do believe that if the best OFRN were bred with the best Colby dogs, directly from the Colby family,
the Colby dogs would get back what they have lacked for a few decades: Gameness.
There are high quality dogs of the OFRN strain that can produce winners when bred to a total cur.

KMdogs

Comment and conversation moved.

__________________
Worst thing you can do is have a dog with no use..

Saint Francis

Your assertion that unless proven it is only a claim... is correct, but no one wise is going to risk jail time thru admission of guilt on an open forum. So it becomes uncertain who has what or what has occurred as proof to back it up...especially on modern yards. The burden of proof is stacked against the "claimer". Another way to look at it is, can you prove the claim is false? No way of knowing, it is what it is. Now, gameness can only be proven thru one true method, as you have stated, so in your last paragraph where gameness is supposedly proven thru catch work is untrue and contradictory. This activity isn't what the APBT was designed for either, if we are discussing the APBT that is. The "P" is for [] obviously. Of course I'm aware of the history of other activities and work performed pre "pit" days, but that is a different discussion where the "P" should be removed...along with the "A" for that matter LOL. Can it prove a bulldog's drive, determination, courage, intelligence, etc.? Of course. Gameness? No. To the point, the OFRN was always renowned for it's gameness, whether that still exists today can not be ascertained publicly for legality reasons. I highly doubt any line, strain, family, etc. is as game as it used to be, simply due to the change in times. Assumptions can only be made...in other words, "claims" are actually being made in the absence of proof by everyone involved.

__________________
INTO THE MOUTH OF MADNESS

I AM THE WOLF IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING

OFRN: THE DEVIL'S LAP DOG

SOMETIMES KILLED, NEVER DEFEATED

KMdogs

For the record, i am not asking, condoning or anything but stating historical information based on what can be learned by anyone. I think based on some of the mentioning comments on here that it should be known i am not asking someone to admit nor am i telling people to do anything illegal. Because, no one i would hope would be THAT stupid on here.

__________________
Worst thing you can do is have a dog with no use..