Flametree

For those interested in OFRN's.

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Flametree,,,"where the fire never dies"

buzhunter

Give us a little bit of history, Flametree. Of course I'm interested. Always ready to soak up knowledge. TIA

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buz

“His resolve is not to seem, but to be, the best.”
- Aeschylus (525-456 BC)

Flametree

I was hoping that there would be someone that could educate me concerning the OFRN. I have some knowledge and I will be willing to share what I know but what I know can be acquired off the internet. I have life experiences with the APBT and the OFRN but I would like to hear about real life experience.

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Flametree,,,"where the fire never dies"

buzhunter

Aw, that sucks, man. Oh well. I guess we'll just have to see if somebody else can jump in here.

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buz

“His resolve is not to seem, but to be, the best.”
- Aeschylus (525-456 BC)

bahamutt99

C'mon, Flametree. You started the thread, and you breed OFRN, so maybe you should start the sharing.

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Flametree

Hello all,,,,I'm starting with Centipede beacause he was the beginning of the "modern" type OFRN. I've enclosed a link where more history can be read but I will attach bits and pieces here on this thread as we go along.

I have always owned "Pits" that what I use to call them. Until I acquired a registered bitch down mostly from Crenshaw' Jeep with a touch of Redboy. I became facinated by the pedigrees and the long history of these dogs. Over the years as I studied,,,I came accross a chapter in one of my books that told the story of the OFRN, I was hooked. I decided that if I was going to be into the APBT this was the line for me. Besides the Colby line I believe the OFRN has the oldest pedigree out of all the lines of APBT's. It took me almost two years to discover the better known breeders of OFRN's but I finally acquired an OFRN bitch from Sullivans Old family Kennels in Missouri. That was my Ms. Red, Sullivan no longer breeds OFRN but I took over were they left off. One day I will not be able to go on but I am sure that someone out there will pick up the torch and continue to keep the flame alive. The OFRN will always be bred in it's purist form.

"'Ferguson's Centipede It is perhaps impossible for modern dog people to realize the great reputation that Ferguson's Centipede enjoyed in the late 30s and early 40s. Perhaps it is sufficient to say that there was never any doubt that he was the best pit dog in the country at that time. Also, more than any other dog, he helped launch the popularity of the Old Family Red Nose strain, although he was more often referred to at the time as a "Lightner dog." At the beginning of his career, Centipede may not have been a unanimous choice for best dog in the country, as his ability was so great that it was not known if he was game. But his final match was against George Saddler's Black Boy, and it went two hours and twenty-two minutes without a turn by either dog, with Centipede finally prevailing.


It was the third contest which convinced everyone of what a great dog Centipede was. Saddler was known to scout his opponent in a big money match like the one with Centipede, and he brought a dog that he thought could beat him. The fact was that both dogs had a reputation as bone-crushing pit warriors. I have an original flyer that advertised the fight, much as a modern prize fight, with Centipede being touted as the "Cream of Oklahoma" and Black Boy as the "Pride of the Delta."

Centipede was whelped about 1933 in the kennels of L. C. Owens in Texas. He was the result of Dan McCoy's having discovered that there was still some of the old Lightner blood down in Louisiana. McCoy and Bob Hemphill made the journey down to that part of the country and bought several dogs. Hemphill kept his close to the vest, but Dan McCoy was always on the move and couldn't keep dogs, so he left his with trusted friends, including Arthur Harvey and L. C. Owens in Amarillo, Texas. Owen's Mickey was bred to the renowned Harvey's Red Devil to produce the litter which contained Centipede.

When I met Bill Lightner in Colorado Springs, he and his wife were in their eighties, and they kept a kennel of basically small dogs of various coloration. Lightner and his wife were uncanny in their ability to select good brood stock. They had left the red, red-nosed dogs down in Louisiana because Lightner didn't like the looks of those dogs, and he felt they were coming out too big. Centipede would be an example of that, as his pit weight was 54 pounds. To listen to many modern dog men, the old time pit dogs were never that big, but not only were there these two great dogs at that size, but they each had been matched twice before they were matched into each other. Be aware that pit weight in those days was lighter than today, so the dogs were easily sixty-five pounds on the chain.

Other than size, the only fault with Centipede was that he was a laid back dog and nearly impossible to work. Frustrated, Owens sold him to Earl Tudor. Although something of a genius in working dogs, even Tudor had a problem with Centipede. When he walked the dog, he stayed back at the end of the leash. Puzzled, Tudor stopped and looked at the dog, and the dog lay down! As patient as he was with the dogs, he wasn't sure that he could ever get Centipede in shape. He decided to rely upon natural ability and endurance for his first contest, which Centipede won handily in less than thirty-five minutes.

The next opponent had a bit of a reputation, so Tudor enlisted his friend Red Howell to work the dog. Now Red was a real genius with dogs, a harbinger to the coming of Ham Morris just a few years later, another gem at training animals. Red never used force in training his dogs, but he understood their psychology. He discovered that Centipede was a natural house dog, and he would do anything for attention. Red's girls would dress Centipede up in dresses and put lip stick on him, and the dog thrived on it.

Red and Centipede worked out a deal. If Centipede would run the turn table mill for a specified time, he could go in the house after his rub down. Nothing else would work. Centipede was unexcited by cats, and if Red placed a dog in Centipede's view, his eyes showed fire, but the dog was too smart to not know that the harness was keeping him from getting to the dog, so he didn't run the mill. Somehow Red was able to convey to the dog that he would get a reward for running the mill. The first time he took a few steps on the mill, Red brought him in the house. Very quickly, the dog got the idea. So Centipede spent a good part of his keep in Red's house with his young daughters. Howell told Bob Wallace that Centipede was absolutely the smartest dog he ever saw of any breed. He would bring Red a bottle of beer, opening up the ice box to get it. Red swore that he could have taught him to open those bottles too.

The match between Centipede and Black Boy would qualify as a classic contest. The dogs met in the center like a couple of freight trains, and first Black Boy had the upper hand. In fact, the lead changed a couple of times, with its being anyone's match up until the two-hour mark. At that point, Centipede finally took command for good. Saddler gave it up in 22 more minutes in a desperate attempt to save his dog.

After Centipede beat Black Boy, Tudor couldn't get him matched, as everyone conceded that he was the best. Nothing his weight, or any weight, could beat him. That was the common opinion among dog men. This was evidenced by the fact that Tudor opened him up at catchweight with no takers. Frustrated, Tudor sold the dog to Dave Ferguson.

Now Dave Ferguson was well known and liked as a pit dog aficionado, but he couldn't keep dogs, as he played trumpet in a big name band. He toured the country, and he spent a lot of time in New York and in San Francisco. For that reason, he left the dog with various trusted friends in the dog game. Dave was a good hearted guy, and he always allowed that whoever was keeping the dog could not only breed to him, but stud him out as well. Because of this situation and the dog's great reputation, the dog was bred a lot, and if we trace back our pedigrees far enough, we will find Centipede there some place. We could do a lot worse!

Dave Ferguson was drafted into the army during the second World War, and he received decorations for heroism. None of the dog men were surprised about this, as they had always referred to him as "the little man with the big heart." Unfortunately, Ferguson was shot and killed by a sniper in the last days of the war. There were lots of losses during that war, but that one particularly threw a pall over the pit dog fraternity.

Centipede died in the yard of D. A. McClintock, another genius with animals and a great lover of the Old Family Red Nose strain. By the time McClintock received the dog, he wasn't producing any more, but he took care of him and even gave him time in the house. Like Red Dunham before him, McClintock considered Centipede the smartest dog he had ever seen.

Beyond being smart, Centipede was considered a great dog, the greatest pit dog of his time. When someone of those days referred to "the great one," they didn't have to mention the name. Everyone knew that it was Centipede".

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Flametree,,,"where the fire never dies"

buzhunter

Alright! Thanks, man. I'm in MO and always on the lookout for people in my area. I'll be looking more onto Sullivan's. You say they are no longer breeding OFRN, are they breeding at all, or out of the game all together? I guess I'll end up googling it when I have time, but where at in MO? I've happened upon Anchor Chain kennels out here and did see a couple of decent looking dogs but the term "breeding for big bone", or something to that effect, prompted me to shut the window and not give it another thought. lol Anybody else out here in MO that you know of?

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buz

“His resolve is not to seem, but to be, the best.”
- Aeschylus (525-456 BC)

Flametree

Sully's OFRN was located in Mountain View Mossouri 65548. As far as I know they kept Red Rangers Mercedes or Sadie. They might still breed now and then.

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Flametree,,,"where the fire never dies"

OldFortKennels

I have delayed replying because I was trying to find some material but OFR originally came from Ireland. The dogs were referred to as Old Family as thats where they came from overseas. There is a ton more of info if I can just find it again.

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http://www.OldFortKennels.com
http://www.freewebs.com/southernpullers/

"Life is like a grindstone. Whether it grinds you down or polishes you up depends on what you are made of."

Ownership=Responsibility

Flametree

Here's another little piece of OFRN history as written By Richard F. Stratton, I hope he doesn't mind. If you are a APBT enthusiast then the Stratton books are a must.




"While the Lightner family had never sold dogs, they sold off a few before the first World War, as the dog matching had subsided considerably in the area of Colorado in which they were living at that time. Al Dickinson of El Paso and Joe Peace were able to get some of these dogs, and they treasured them highly and kept the line going. These were primarily the large dogs that tended to show the red nose. When Joe Peace and Al Dickinson were both drafted during the World War, Red Howell took their dogs, and some of them went to Bourgeous in Louisiana. The men who used Lightner dogs to the extent that the Old Family Red Nose line became famous were Arthur Harvey and L. C. Owens of Amarillo, Texas. The breedings of these famous dog men produced many great dogs, including Hemphill’s Golddust and Hemphill’s Broke Jaw. A candidate for the best pit bitch of the century was Lightner’s Speed. In 1926, she was bred to Allen’s Fighting Tige to produce Harvey’s Red Devil. Red Devil was the sire of Centipede and Golddust. Centipede was generally considered the greatest dog of his time. And he was 54 pounds pit weight, quite large even for today’s dogs. With Lightner’s predilection for small dogs, I can imagine the look on his face at raising these large dogs! The interesting thing here is that it was a very inbred strain that was producing such large dogs. In fact, it was probably inbreeding which produced the red nose and red eyes. These are recessive traits, and they are more likely to come to the surface in a program of heavy inbreeding.

Other dogs that helped make the red dogs famous were Ham Morris’s Pinkie, Howell’s Banjo, and William’s Cyclone. Since there were so many good dogs coming from this line, they were quite naturally bred along family lines, and this tended to perpetuated the red nose, the red eyes, and the red toe nails that so distinguished this strain."

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Flametree,,,"where the fire never dies"

buzhunter

Keep digging, Andy! I'm loving this thread.

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buz

“His resolve is not to seem, but to be, the best.”
- Aeschylus (525-456 BC)

Flametree

Here's another piece of history concerning the Old Family Red Nose.




THE "OLD FAMILY RED NOSE" DOGS By E.L. Mullins.
First of all, this is not a review. I cannot possibly say anything concerning the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs that has not already been repeated a hundred times before. This, therefore, is simply another record of what history has already given us and a re-introduction to the very significant part of the history of the American Pit Bull Terrier.
When we discuss the origin of the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs, we are really discussing the original dogs bred by such men as William J. Lightner and Con Feeley. It was around 1914-1916 that Red Howell, Al Dickson and Joe Peace had dogs from the first litters off of Lightner's "Vick" and Lightner's "Pansy". When the first World War came along, Joe Peace and Al Dickson were drafted and Red Howell was left with the dogs. Red Howell sold some of the dogs, however, most of the dogs he placed in capable and reliable hands of those he knew he could trust. During this time they were known as just food pit dogs. The name "Red Nose", at the time, had never been used to describe a particular line of dogs. It would be Dan McCoy who would later be credited as the first man to coin the phrase, "Old Family Red Nose" dogs to describe and distinguish these dogs as an individual line or strain of the American Pit Bull Terrier. History later gave us the litter of Ferguson's "Centipede", Hemphill's "Golddust", Morris' "Pinkie", and Howell's "Banjo", as well as their close relative, William's "Cyclone".
Robert H.(Bob) Hemphill, along with Red Howell, went to the kennel of Harvey and Owens in Amarillo, Texas and together they purchased "Golddust". "Golddust", of course, later went to Harry Clark and then to D.A. McClintock, where he died. Earl Tudor obtained "Centipede". "Centipede" was then loaned to Red Howell. Later, Earl Tudor sold "Centipede" to Dave Ferguson. Earl Tudor was also the man who owned the dog called "Cyclone" and eventually sold him to Jim Williams's. It is felt that if Earl Tudor and Red Howell had not won such great battles with these dogs mentioned above, as well as other, that made this particular line so popular. This was the first time you really began to hear about "Red Nose" dogs as a strain.
Now, not all of the offspring were whelped "Red Nose" from this stock. Some people still feel that the blood in the Con Feeley dogs was much more "Red Nose" then that of the Lightner dogs. It is said W.C.(Bill) Roper bred some of the best "Red Nose" dogs, sent to him by Jim Williams and Bob Wallace. I.D. Cole of Arizona also bred some extremely high caliber dogs, bred down from Slattery's "Mike" and William's "Blade". I.D. Cole also owned Cole's (Fulkerson's) "Spook", a direct grandson of the old Lightner's "Spook". However, the "Red Nose" dogs were never controlled by any one individual or select group of individuals. Many of the "Red Nose" dogs were produced through different crosses. In fact, there were many breeders and fanciers of the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs. There were men such as W.J. Lightner, Con Feeley, J.P. Colby, D.A. McClintock, Dan McCoy, Harvey and Owens, Ferguson, Ferrel, Conklin, Anderson, Bourgeous, Plemmons, Dickenson, Hanson, Williams, Roberts, Cole, Leo Kinard, Ed Crenshaw, Joe Beal, Jake Wilder, just to name a few. However, two of the leading breeders into the late 1960's and the man more often associated with the "Old Family Red Nose" doÿ
2nd part:
However, two of the leading breeders into the late 1960's and the man more often associated with the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs were Robert H.(Bob) Hemphill Jr. and Robert Forster (Bob) Wallace.
Robert Hemphill had been friends with Earl Tudor as early as 1914. Hemphill became personally interested in the Lightner dogs and in the 1920's began an extensive search to locate and obtain high caliber dogs from this line.
It was Dan McCoy who received word of the frenchman who lived in Louisiana by the name of Bourgeous. Bourgeous had received several dogs directly from Mr. William Lightner and for many years had bred and raised these dogs strictly for his own personal satisfaction. Bourgeous was extremely successful in preserving the "Red Nose" strain. Robert Hemphill went with Dan McCoy to Louisiana and aided by Gaboon Trahan, they purchased several dogs from Bougeous. Hemphill's kept only the highest caliber of these "Red Nose" dogs and began to form his foundation stock from them. Hemphill's early advertisements refelect that he had been raising "Old Family Red Nose" dogs since 1927. Thoughout his life, Robert Hemphill remained dedicated to the breed and faithful to the "Old Family Red Nose" line. Old advertisements throughout his life reflected his great devotion to keeping the line pure. Until 1966 he advertised strictly "Old Family Red Nose" dogs. After that time, his ads began to reflect the adage of 1/8th to 1/16th "Dibo" breeding.
Concerning the Lightner dogs, some fanciers and under the false assumption that W.J. Lightner bred only "Red Nose" dogs because of his overwhelming association with them. Those who have really done their homework know that this is not the case at all. He also raised great blacks and dark colored dogs as well. The pinnacle of Lightner's success as a breeder is demonstrated through two dogs; Hall's "Searcy Jeff", owned through time by Jim Searcy, Bob Hemphill and Dr. Hall and then Bob Wallace, was reputed as being the best of the "Red Nose" blood that could ever be bred. The second dog was "Colorado Imp", owned by Jeff Runyon and said to be the best of the black and/or dark blood that could ever be bred. Both of these dogs being bred from the same basic foundation dogs of the same man, William J. Lightner. When these two dogs met each other at Medicine Park, Oklahoma in 1937, they proved William J. Lightner to be one of the greatest breeders of all time. After this meeting, Bob Wallace told Hemphill that he was going to buy this dog, "Searcy Jeff", even if it costs him a thousand dollars! Later, in 1937, when Hemphill left that part of the country, he divided up up the dogs with Red Howell and Dr. Hall. Dr. Hall received "Searcy Jeff" and Bob Wallace did eventually buy "Jeff" from him. Also in 1937, Robert Hemphill sent a young dog back to William Lightner, that dog now appears in many of the "Old Family Red Nose" line of today, that dog is known as Lightner's Pumpkin.
Bob Wallace is also remembered in history for his association and great success with "Old Family Red Nose" dogs. However, there are two main misconceptions concerning Mr. Wallace that should be cleared up at this point. One is that Hemphill and Wallace were partners. They were not. They both shared a deep respect of the "Red Nose" dogs and were both dedicated to keeping the line pure. They were both successful breeders in keeping the line pure, strong and beautiful. They even shared common breedings and interbred their dogs within each others line, but they were not partners.
At the age of thirteen, Bob Wallace met and became friends with the "Old Timer", Ben Flannery. Throughout his teens, Bob Wallace owned many outstanding Bulldogs. He later obtained dogs from bloodlines of Dugan's "Pat". The second misconception concerning Bob Wallace was that he bred primarily "Red Nose" dogs. His original was quiet variable in color and were extremely talented dogs. Though these dogs did not show it, they carried a large amount of the "Red Nose" blood. One of the first foundation females of Bob Wallace was the famous Shipley's "Penny". Shipley's "Penny" was a direct descendant of the old Corcoran dogs. Wallace had always considered Corcoran to be one of the great breeders of all time. Other great dogs that are considered part of the foundation of the Wallace dogs were ones such as, Ferguson's "Centipede", Hall's "Searcy Jeff" and the famous Wallace's "Tony". "Tony" was said to be Wallaces' pride and joy. Wallace bred Shipley's "Penny" to "Centipede" and produced these three great dogs, "Stinger" "Scorpion" and "Spider". He later bred "Searcy Jeff" to "Spider" and produced Wallace's "Madam Queen". When he bred "Madam Queen" to "Tony" he produced the ever famous Wallace's "King Cotton". Other famous dogs appear in many of the popular "Old Family Red Nose" dogs of modern times are Wallace's "Red Rustler", "Red Rock" and "Red Rube", as well as the famous producing female Wallace's "Red Raven".
The old advertisements of Bob Wallace during the 1940's clearly reflect the breeding and maintenance of the old Corcoran and Lightner Line of dogs. Most of the advertisements were stated in bold print. During the 1940's Bob Wallace began to look "Red Nose" dogs to out cross his own with. At this time he felt that his own dogs were getting as tight as could be productively bred. When he began his search he found that the pure "Old Family Red Nose" dogs were almost extinct. Most of the lines were ruined or contaminated through careless breeding. However, he was finally able to locate and obtain seven pure "Red Nose" dogs of high caliber, whose pedigree he could authenticate.
Bob Wallace was a man of character and honesty and often stated that there is no "magic" to the "Old Family Red Nose" dogs, that they are just one good line of many. The "red Nose" dogs have the intelligence, talent and personality to stand on their own merit. Bob Wallace has gone down in history as one of the greatest breeders of his ear. Over the years as a breeder, Bob Wallace was known to sell less than a dozen dogs. He stated that he never sold dogs as a matter of personal principle. The results of his dedication to the breed is still apparent and appreciated in the modern day American Pit Bull Terrier.

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Flametree,,,"where the fire never dies"

Flametree

Here's another piece of history concerning the Old Family Red Nose.

Touched by Fire ,by Richard F. Stratton
Richard F. Stratton.com - Articles>Touched by Fire by Richard F. Stratton

The title above was a mistake..
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It has often been claimed that geniuses, whether scientific, mathematical, or musical, were touched by a divine fire that made them special, but it also could be a curse because it seemed that geniuses were more likely to be plagued by madness than those of us of normal intelligence. Actually, there is a certain controversy regarding the latter supposition. It may just be that the mental illness of an otherwise normal person goes more unnoticed than that of someone who is famous because of genius capabilities.

But I am taking the phrase to refer to the Old Family Red Nose dogs. The red color of the nose and eyes is seemingly touched by a fire, albeit not divine. Similarly, there is much controversy about the grand old red nosed dogs. And like geniuses, the Old Family dogs have been considered by many dog men, including this one, to be something truly special.

One of the areas of misunderstanding is that many fanciers think that any Pit Bull which shows the red nose is a member of the Old Family Red Nose strain. Such is not the case, as many strains of dogs will occasionally throw a red-nosed pup or two. The term Old Family Red Nose refers to a particular family of dogs that was especially successful during the 40s, 50s, and 60s. They came from the old Lightner strain of the early part of the century. In fact, they were often called Lightner dogs, rather than the term that began to be used in the early 40s.

It was my privilege to know William J. Lightner and his wife, Mary, back in the 40s and 50s. I just wish I had known what questions to ask them. At that time, they lived in Colorado Springs, but this was at the tail end of a career in dogs that started way back in the 19th century. Lightner’s father, grandfather, and his uncles had been raising a strain of dogs they had kept pure since before the Civil War. Mary Lightner was also a fan of the dogs, and she kept the pedigrees straight and handled the correspondence. Although the Lightner's were wonderful people and quite helpful to me, I was not aware of what high regard their dogs were held until I had been in the military and gotten to know a lot of the dog men across the country. Notables such as Bob Wallace, Bob Hemphill, Bert Clouse, and Leo Kinard, to mention just a few, were quite impressed that I knew Bill Lightner.

All of these people knew more than I did about the history of his dogs. They knew, for example, that there was a separate strain of dogs that Lightner had early in the century (having obtained them from his relatives), and these were very much sought after. Then there was what these dog men called the "latter day Lightner dogs." Even the most astute student wasn’t sure where the later strain came from, but they felt that it was testament to Lightner’s genius at breeding dogs that he could create yet another great strain. I asked Lightner about the first strain when I got back, and he said that he had gotten rid of them because he didn’t like the color of the red nose. He also liked small dogs, and as far as he was concerned, the red-nosed dogs were running too large. Lightner was a giant of a man himself, and I had always been surprised by the big men, including Bert Clouse and Ham Morris, who liked their pit dogs on the small size. As a matter of fact, Lightner had been a renowned prizefighter in his time, and he had been good friends with some of the great old-time boxers, such as Jim Corbett (famous for beating John L. Sullivan).

I wish I had quizzed Lightner about the later dogs, but I surmised that they had been a blend of his old strain with some other quality line, and the rumor was that it consisted primarily of Colby dogs. But we are concerned with the early dogs here, as that was what produced the Old Family Red Nose strain.

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Flametree,,,"where the fire never dies"

BuckFan

While doing a Google search I ran across a website that has Hemphill dogs. Because I am a new member I can't post the url but the website is Old Family Kennels.

FOSTER

the red nose, the red eyes, and the red toe nails that so distinguished this strain."

what would be some names to look for in a pedigree, to know if u have the ofrn. my cuz breeds reds as stated above, just curious what to look for. their main dogs are heavy boudreaux from crawfords, and a vegas rednose bitch, wildside and the likes.

good read by the way