Preservation of Gameness - Go Pitbull .com

Indica · 10-13-2008, 10:38 PM

If you don't want to discuss this, or are tired of it, don't participate. I want to discuss it and hear other people's thoughts and opinions.

What does gameness mean to you?

To me, gameness in reference to APBTs is the ability to perservere at all costs, over any obstacle, -or die trying.

IMO, gameness in it's purest form, (all of the necessary physiological and mental traits are inherited in the fullest degree) is extremely rare. Mainly, imo because to unveil this concoction of talent involves illegality. -or does it?

Are there other ways to determine the presence of true gameness? Does the future of this trait depend on us to find an alternative way of testing our dog's mettle? Does a game test require extreme physical pain and or/ only appear in combat situations? Is gameness limited to combat?-or are tests of will sufficient?

I feel that we need to determine an alternative way to test for game qualities in order to preserve the breed. There needs to be a legal way to do this.

What do you think?

BedlamBully · 10-13-2008, 10:43 PM

There was a big thread on this once before.
The definition of it now has changed since 'true gameness' can only be determined by the box.
Found the quote "an unwillingness to give up, even under the most difficult of circumstances and despite the threat of death."

The closest it gets now 'legally' is probably the tug-o-war that I've seen lately. Where there is a dog on each end of the rope, sometimes with a board between them, sometimes not.

NesOne · 10-13-2008, 10:47 PM

Gameness to me, is what it was originally used for with the APBT. And yes, I feel that gameness is limited to combat with another dog of the same weight.

The only alternative to test and/or preserve it, is to go to a country where it is legal.

I think Mexico is the closest, anyone willing to move? LOL.

Indica · 10-13-2008, 10:50 PM

Yeah, that does make sense to say that it has changed. Especially since originally, it was to describe ability in the box.

Seems like it's becoming a bit vague now.

The breed seems to be searching for a new place, and that kind of ability needs to be put to use or it will dissolve, IMO. It needs a job where these traits will allow it to surpass all breeds and people will understand the uniquness of it, and for once appreciate it!

Indica · 10-13-2008, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NesOne

Gameness to me, is what it was originally used for with the APBT. And yes, I feel that gameness is limited to combat with another dog of the same weight.

The only alternative to test and/or preserve it, is to go to a country where it is legal.

I think Mexico is the closest, anyone willing to move? LOL.

I hope the true APBT doesn't become extinct in the US. :/

reddoggy · 10-13-2008, 11:11 PM

I think everyone needs to consider the admins of this site and the fact that they accept full responsibility for everything said on here. Forums get fingured all the time for being a network of dogfighters and this is the type of stuff the media eats up. Nobody on this site should know if their dog is even game, lets just leave it at that.

MADBood · 10-13-2008, 11:58 PM

Reddoggy is right...no one here SHOULD know. This is one of those conversations that will never be agreed on or won. One thing for sure is the real pit dogs are diminishing rapidly. Most of those punk wannabe dogmen don't care about gameness...just winning. A dog doesn't have to be game to win. Gameness is an amazing quality but cannot be proven unless you game test...so we may never know, we can only speculate.

Indica · 10-14-2008, 12:19 AM

Wow. I am completely amazed at the hypocrisy I have just witnessed.

My first post I got flamed because I supported breeders who breed for appearance and temperment. Everyone started spouting off about "real" APBTs. And the funny part is NONE of us have a REAL APBT if what you say is true. Hehe.

Even better, the little adba champions that are held in such high regard are the SAME thing as UKC and Amstaff show dogs! Just a different shape now that the trait "shhhhh" gameness is something we cannot speak of!

ericschevy · 10-14-2008, 01:37 AM

Gameness can only be determined in the []. However, a APBT does not have to be "Game" to be an APBT. Not all APBT's were used in the box, many were just working dogs..

cane76 $Infractions Award$ · 10-14-2008, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indica

What does gameness mean to you??

Gameness isn't up for opinion,it is what it is,I'll tell you what it's not,two dog's fighting each other in a backyard,a result of dog aggression,nor is it exclusive to the apbt,[although only a few breeds carry the trait],a trait that is in the mind and heart of the dog,it isn't some so called breed experts opinion or a soccer mom's vague misinterpretation of a definition.
I believe it is[gameness] a total lack of self preservation

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indica

Are there other ways to determine the presence of true gameness? Does the future of this trait depend on us to find an alternative way of testing our dog's mettle? Does a game test require extreme physical pain and or/ only appear in combat situations? Is gameness limited to combat?-or are tests of will sufficient???

I'm not sure if there are other ways to test for it,if there are they haven't been created,and i believe it can only be evaluated correctly in the face of extreme pain and eminent death,jmo.
also i don't believe it only appears in the face of death or combat,in a game dog it is evident in there every day tasks,in other words a game dog is game no matter what it is doing!although it can only be properly tested for in the face of death

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indica

I feel that we need to determine an alternative way to test for game qualities in order to preserve the breed. There needs to be a legal way to do this. ???

I disagree respectfully,we can preserve this breed and still maintain the trait of deep drive and a never quit attitude with out testing for gameness,jmo....

What do you think?[/quote]

MADBood · 10-14-2008, 01:44 AM

Felonies suck dude...you can talk about gameness all you want but you cannot prove your dog is a game dog unless you put them in the box. I'm not so sure I would go around telling people on a public forum my dog is dead game even if I were a true dogman....which I'm not. Good luck getting a dogman to speak freely here.

I have argued this subject to death about a dog showing signs of gameness without the box and everyone keeps telling me that there is no way. I am not going to prove them wrong because I enjoy my freedom but I can always speculate that my dogs will kick their dog's asses. Most people here don't have dogs that were tightly bred for fighting, so yes, I guess you could say none of us have a true pit dog...but rather a shell of the true APBT. I'm not gonna prove otherwise. These topics always run hot then get shut down or deleted so I'm not gonna waste anymore time with the subject.

cane76 $Infractions Award$ · 10-14-2008, 01:48 AM

who's trying to prove there dog is game?It's called a discusion and it isnt a felony to talk about this breed its temperment or its history.
sorry.

MADBood · 10-14-2008, 01:51 AM

I wasn't responding to you smart ass. I was responding to the OP's last post.

ericschevy · 10-14-2008, 01:53 AM

Interesting article I just found..

Anyone who has ever witnessed Pit Bull aggression is usually shocked by the level of ferocity these dogs display. The come hard, with everything they have, and do not stop coming. What most do not realize is that this has long been a desirable and positive trait of the breed. It is called gameness. Only the Pit Bulls have gameness. Essentially, it is the undying determination to keep going despite pain, injury, or insurmountable odds. What many do not also realize is that gameness was bred into these animals for a reason.

Dog fighting has not always been a bloodsport as witnessed today. In the 19th Century, it was much more a gentleman's sport, with integrity and much accolade. Owners rarely allowed their dogs to fight to the death. When the least sign of submission was displayed, the animals were taken apart and the loser conceded. They were prize fighters at a time when America was rising in power and proving its mettle. Life was hard and Americans were hardworking. They created a breed that matched their determination to succeed. The American Pit Bull Terrier had all these qualities and more.

Pit Bulls were selected and culled on the traits of their gameness. The size of the animal was irrelevant. In fact, the average weight of Pit Bulls then was 18-35 pounds. A smaller dog was often better skilled. They were the only breed that could take on dogs 100 pounds heavier than they and defeat them. Another glaring difference between the dogs of today and yesterday was the amount of human aggression displayed. Pit Bulls were quickly put down by their owners when any sign of human aggression presented itself in the early days. The handlers needed to have dogs they could tend to without being bitten. Over time, the Pit Bull earned a reputation for being human friendly. This trait still exists today, but it is slowly but surely being bastardized.

bahamutt99 · 10-14-2008, 02:34 AM

I just worry about proving type, temperament, structure, working abilty. There's no way to really prove gameness outside the box, and I refuse to go there.