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Old 11-07-2008, 07:45 PM   #1 (permalink)
 

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History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS

In Wayne D. Brown's book HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER, on pages 25 and 26 he note’s that in the late 1930’s one of the most important bloodlines of Pit Bulls were the Lightner dogs. He illustrates that in the conventions of 1936 and 1937, there were Lightner dogs of the dark variety and Lightner dogs of the red nose variety, and a classic confrontation of the two. When Bob Hemphill wrote Lightner that they were going to use Hall's Searcy Jeff, of the red nose Lightner strain, in the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 at Medicine Park Oklahoma, Lightner wrote back that the red nose blood in Jeff was as game was would ever be bred, and, further that the black and blue breeding in (Runyon's Colorado) Imp (II) was as game as would ever be bred...So, the contest between Hall's Searcy Jeff and Runyon's Colorado Imp II at the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 was a classic confrontation between the red nose Lightner dogs and the dark Lightner dogs. Earl Tudor handled Imp and he proved to be game. Jeff had punished Imp severely around the head and nose and Tudor picked him up. However, he scratched Imp and he went across with his nose bumping the ground, unable to get his head up, but he took a foothold on Jeff. Jeff beat Imp in 54 minutes. Later, Hall's Searcy Jeff was to beat Imp's brother Colorado Dan, also...After Searcy Jeff had beaten Colorado Imp II and Colorado Dan, their owner, Jeff Runyon, quit the game and sold his dogs. This is one of the few times I have ever found in literature, blue dogs before 1936. The year 1936 was the year the AKC finally recognized the, as it was then known, Stafforshire Terrier. This was the year that the red nose dogs defeated the blue blooded dogs. The dogs of this blood was sold but it is not said who to, although it is mentioned that at least some of these dogs found their way to Joe Corvino who, for a time at least, was involved in the formation of the AKC American Staffordshire Terriers. Dogmen wanted winning GAME dogs back then, and Imp certainly proved his gameness that day against Jeff, in a stumbling scratch. Many a true dogmen would have been more than happy to have an Imp bred dog in their yard. Back then game losers weren’t penalized, and were worthy of being bred. I know that AmStaff people regard the red noses with abhorrence, and I also know that Game folks today don't care for the blue color. Actually most of them can’t stand it at all because most of the time (but not always) a blue dog stands for being bred for looks and looks alone. I do have to wonder though what the American Pit Bull Terrier would look like today if Imp II had won that fight compared to the American Staffordshire Terrier?

Whether or not people want to believe it, blue is a legitimate color in the American Pit Bull Terrier gene pool as evidenced and show further more by the Blue Paul, or sometimes called blue Poll. A Scottish strain now extinct, but whose descendants clearly live on in today’s blue dogs.These solid blue or solid red Scottish gladiators resembled the fighting Staffordshires of England but could weigh twice as much. The blue dogs were known in Scotland as Blue Pauls, and the reds as Red Smuts. The name Blue Paul derives from a Scottish yarn about the pirate Paul Jones who reportedly brought the dogs from abroad to the district of Kirkintilloch.
The dogs were popular with the gypsies of that district who maintained that the dogs originally came from the Galloway coast, lending more color than blue to the Paul Jones tale. Like the bull and terrier breeds from which they derived, the Blue Pauls were game to the death in the ring. These dogs remained mute even at the height of battle, very much like the Tosa of Japan.

In appearance, the Blue Paul was similar in appearance to the Bullmastiff of the late 1800s. The dog was a smooth coated cobby dog weighing about 45 lbs (20.5 kg), standing 20 inches (51 cm) at the shoulder. The head was large, the muzzle short and square. The jaws and lips were even, without overhanging flews. The stop was slight: eyes, dark hazel. The ears, set on high, were invariably cropped. The face was wrinkleless but the eyebrows were contracted or knit. Mr. James B. Morrison of Greenock, England reported that the last Blue Paul exhibited was shown in the late 1880s."

Many people claim that the Blue Paul is now extinct. It may very well be extinct in its pure form, but they were probably crossed with The Pit Bull Terriers in England and Ireland, and the Pit Bull Terriers were brought to America from Scotland. In 1857, McCaffrey imported the dog Spring from Glasgow, Scotland to America. At that time Glasgow was the center of Blue Paul activity. In 1858, in Rhode Island, Spring won a fight in 1 hour, 35 minutes. In 1859 he won a fight in 2 hours 15 minutes. In 1860, in Boston, he beat Tom Story's dog in 2 hours 40 minutes. Spring was bred to Maid of Erin, who was an imported bitch from Dublin Ireland and produced Young Spring. Young Spring won a fight in 1 hour 15 minutes. In 1862 he beat Sheffield George's dog in 3 hours 17 minutes, in New York. When Spring was bred to John Mahon's imported bitch he produced Jeff who won a fight in Providence, Rhode Island in 1 hour. He later won against miller's dog in 1 hour 10 minutes. In 1864 he won another fight in 1 hour 10 minutes. Dick, another son of Spring, won a fight against Spring's Hope in 1 hour 17 minutes. Power's Violet was imported to America from Scotland by her Scottish owner and, on January 10, 1892, beat a dog named Spright in Massachusetts. They fought at Catch weight. Her size, plus her name which indicates a dark blue color, leads to the possibility that she might have been a Blue Paul.

If the above dogs were Blue Pauls, their bloodline was surly continued in America and others were probably imported to America, England, and Ireland as well.
Brown also writes in his book that W.C. Roper bred some game dogs from stock sent to him by Jim Williams and Bob Wallace. Some of Roper's dogs were silver buckskin in color, such as Silver Jack and Roper's (William's) Silver. Roper's Silver won 4 fights at 58 pounds, and another Tudor's Black Jack (16xW) was, according to Earl Tudor, from a Delihant's Paddy/Wichita Mike bloodline. His sire was Black Tige who was sired by Blue Mike. Blue Mike was out of Miss Blue who was sired by Imported Roger out of Henry's Blue Mary. The sire of Blue Mike was Wichita Mike who was out of Henry's Blue Madge and sired by Henry's Black Demon. Several pages later he writes "As we have seen, Tudor's Black Jack was important to the Tacoma line but he was also important to the Ruffian line of American Staffordshire Terriers. He was not only important in the development of pit dogs, including the Dibo line, but he formed the basis for the Ruffian line".

Last edited by Sadie; 11-07-2008 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 11-07-2008, 07:45 PM   #2 (permalink)
 

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Someone new to the breed always ask what the difference is between an AKC American Staffordshire Terrier, and a UKC or ADBA American Pit Bull Terrier? When told to the truth, the true history behind the breed most say they don't fight their dogs so why should they even have to know all that stuff? The truth is, if you own a Staffordshire or a American Pit Bull Terrier, it is irresponsible of you not to know the truth, the true history behind the breed.

In Richard Pascoe’s book, "The American Staffordshire Terrier" he mentions that there are five major lines in the foundation of the American Staffordshire Terrier. Tacoma, X-pert, Ruffian, Crusader, and "California" which is not actually a line, but a combination of lines. The Tacoma was developed by Charles Doyle and Al Brown beginning with the whelping of Tacoma Jack in 1927. The Tacoma line is influenced by Corvino blood early in its history. The Tacoma line is known for its courage and working ability.

The X-Pert line traces its pedigrees back to Colby, Feeley, Corrington, Tudor and Morris. Alberta and Cliff Ormsby began the line with the whelping of Ormsby's Madge in 1930. The Ruffian line was started by Clayton Harriman in 1938 with the whelping of The Ruffian, bred by F C Klump. The Ruffian line was influential in the development of many other lines, notably E C Ringold's Gallant line, beginning with CH Gallant Ruff and the Har-wyn line of Peggy Harper which finds its foundations in the breeding efforts of Harriman and Whittaker. One of her greats was CH Sky King of Har-Wyn ( half X-Pert). The California lines were strongly influenced by Ruffian and Gallant. Early breeders appearing in California pedigrees include Steele, Gregory, Freese, Farley, Wiswall and Harrison. CH Harrison's Bozo boy was bred by RC Steele and whelped in 1936. The Chatworth Kennels of Ray and Ina Harris include dogs of Freese, Harrison and Wakefield derivation. Rossmore's Naughty Knight, who sired the foundation of the Crusader line, was bred by Gladys Smith. The Crusader line was started in 1950 by Ike and Jean Stinson. In 1955, Smith's breeding of CH Rossmore's Naughty Knight x CH Gallant Susie Q produced CH Knight Crusader, CH Knight Bomber and CH Knight Patroller. All of these dogs played a major role in the development of the Crusader line. The development of all other kennels in the breed come from combinations of these original foundation lines. Notably Sertoma, Archer, Sierra, Tryarr, Willynwood, White Rock, to name a few.

The foundation of the X-Pert line began in 1932 with Bennett's Buck x Ormsby's Madge. Ormsby's Madge (Corrington's Bennetts Mack x Bennetts Queen) Corringtons Bennetts Mack (Corringtons Tiger Jim Jr x Corringtons Mae Rose) Corringtons Mae Rose was a Tudors Jack II daughter. Her dam, Corrington's Jenny Queen was a Colby bitch. (Colby's Dan x Colbys Blinkey). Bennetts Queen was Colby through her dam, Sharon Madge (Pitts Duke x Pitts Bebe) If you trace the pedigree back two or three generations from there, you will find Colbys Disby, Colbys Bess, Colbys Galtie, Colbys Nancy, Colbys Roger, Colbys Pansy, and Colbys Sally. The X-Pert bloodline is one of oldest in AmStaffs. It was started in 1930 by Clifford & Alberta Ormsby. They lived in Hornell, NY. Clifford Ormsby was 25 years old, and Alberta was 22 when they began their breeding program. The foundation bitch of the X-Pert bloodline is Ormsby's Madge. Cliff bought her in Texas.

Clifford Ormsby: "...I started with this great breed when you could buy a Pit Bull pup for $5.00. Many times this pup had flat feet, narrow chest, no brisket, bowed legs, fiddle front, cow-hocks, was undershot and had an unreliable temperament. You could shop around and find some desirable ones but it was a problem to find good dominant breeders of quality...."

Ormsby's Madge was sired by famous pitbull Bennett's Mack, who was also known as Corrington's Mack C. Bennett's Mack was Corrington breeding. His bloods was a cross of Smith & Tudor's lines. Both lines had influence of old Henry bloodline, that was developed by Frank G.Henry in 1890's. But Tudor's dogs were mostly black part of the Henry line, when Charles Smith's dogs were more of the red part of the Henry line and more outcrossed than Tudor's. Tudor's part of Bennett's Mack pedigree was Tudor's Jack II, son of the great Tudor's Black Jack 16xW. In 1930's Tudor's gamedogs were as a sign of success. Earl Tudor of Oklahoma, or Oklahoma Kid as most dogmen of that time called him, was just 22 years old in 1915 when he won with Jack Swift. Earl became well known dogman all over the country in 1920's with his 16 times winner Black Jack dog and 9 times winner Black Jack Jr. There were many breeders in that time who decide to use Tudor's stuff in their breedings. Corrington was one of these breeders of that time. Ok, back to Ormsby's Madge... Her dam was Bennett's Queen, a cross of Hogan's & Pitts' lines. Hogan line was built on Henry blood. Some of Charles Smith's breedings are behind Hogan's too. Pitts' line was mostly old Colby's bloods with some Henry.

Clifford Ormsby was born in Hornell, NY on August 24, 1905. Alberta also was born in Hornell 3 years later, on June 29, 1908. They were good friends in fact they grew up together a couple of streets apart. Young Cliff had about every animal there was to have. His first dogs were not purebred, and Cliff wanted to have a purebred dog that had spirit. Shortly after they were married Clifford & Alberta decided to take a pure pitbull. In 1930 Cliff went to Leonard,Texas, he took the dog, that he wanted. This was a female from W.F.Bennett's breeding, out of the famous pitbull dog Bennett Mack & Bennett Queen. The name of this female pup is well known to many Am Staff breeders, ORMSBY'S MADGE. It was the start, a Great start!

In 1938 Clifford built a kennel. It was the very modern kennel for that time. There was a water heating system in the kennel floor. He put hot water system himself. When Clifford spoke about his kennel, he said: "Dr. Byer ( Ormsby's veterinarian) come down and asked, "Who built this kennel, who made this kennel for you?" I said, "I did!" He said that," this is a good layout for a small kennel." The heating in the floor, that's the most economical heating too. You see, you've got to put it in right. This is six to eight inches on center, I think three quarter inch wide. I know there's about seventy elbows in it. It has two units, there was no sense in that becouse I never divided it. I always used the whole thing. I have a pressure pump. I can put it on automatically...... "

In the beginning of Cliff & bert's Staffordshire Terrier breeding, Cliff wasn't interested in "showing" of their dogs. Alberta changed his mind though. She said, " If we're going to have dogs, I'm going to show". The first dogs they shipped to Willfred Brandon. Alberta was very interested in handling their dogs herself. And the first super champion of the X-Pert family, shown by Alberta in many dog shows was the legendary Ch. X-Pert Brindle Biff. He was the favorite dog of Clifford, Alberta & their daughter, Dorothy. When Peggy Doster asked Alberta, "What is the name of the best dog or bitch you ever bred?" Alberta said: "Biff. He was my first dog. I suppose I'm partial. You know, first show dog. I took him to shows all over the country. I showed him all over. I took him all over the place & he won all over the country. I'd go in the ring and people would say:"There goes that woman, again, with that dog"".

Alberta was licensed to judge Stafs & Boxers. She began to judging in '40'. In 1995 Peggy Doster asked Alberta: "Why did you decide to begin judging?". Alberta said this: " It got me out to California and it got me away from cleaning up kennels at home. It wasn't long ago that they wanted to know if I would come out there and judge the dogs. They had read on their catalog that I had been out there in 1979. Wouldn't I look cute....trying to judge dogs. .....Boxers and Stafs and any breed I can quality for, but I don't want to. You know, too much for me, I don't want to get out there and get sick or something, you know."

Alberta: " I was out in Califonia, judging, and I had Am Staff in the ring that was all chewed up in his head. I said, "This dog was in fight. That was in 49', I think. And he said: "Yes, he had a fight yesterday, they fought him." And I said "He did? He's all chewed up." I said, "Will he shakes hands with me?" He said, "Yeah, but he shakes with his hind leg." He stuck his hind leg up to me and shook hands."
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Old 11-28-2008, 11:28 AM   #3 (permalink)
 

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blue is not a color, is genetic fault, picture it as de-washed black, why should it be more expensive than dogs without genetic default?

and if im not mistaken in ingland long ago blue meant red, i mean a blue hair was in fact red not blue,

ukc pits have so much amstaff blood....ukc "pits" and akc amstaffs are the same (exept no rednose in amstaff)

amstaff only reason of being is dog beauty show, most dont work....as an owner of amstaff, they became useles to me

crusader and california...
california is the proof that outcross dont work
crusader lives no more because they were like pitdogs and people wanted more bone and mass...

tacoma is the only line that interests me

it seems that miss Har-Wyn had affaire with knowned dogman (the silver fox) and maybe some Har-Wyn "amstaffs" are in reality gamedogs

i dont know why i waste my time in this subject....blue dogs lol
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Old 11-28-2008, 08:46 PM   #4 (permalink)
 

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Originally Posted by lusopitbull View Post
blue is not a color, is genetic fault, picture it as de-washed black, why should it be more expensive than dogs without genetic default?

and if im not mistaken in ingland long ago blue meant red, i mean a blue hair was in fact red not blue,

ukc pits have so much amstaff blood....ukc "pits" and akc amstaffs are the same (exept no rednose in amstaff)

amstaff only reason of being is dog beauty show, most dont work....as an owner of amstaff, they became useles to me

crusader and california...
california is the proof that outcross dont work
crusader lives no more because they were like pitdogs and people wanted more bone and mass...

tacoma is the only line that interests me

it seems that miss Har-Wyn had affaire with knowned dogman (the silver fox) and maybe some Har-Wyn "amstaffs" are in reality gamedogs

i dont know why i waste my time in this subject....blue dogs lol
I'm sorry you don't agree actually this was not meant to be a debateable topic it was more of an educated read about the color blue in the breed since there are many theroies and opinions about this topic. And yes it is a color and does exist. I have a blue adba female she's one of the best fiesty dogs I have ever owned . And if you look on the adba site blue is on their color chart as well . But in any event I don't think blue is rare nor should it make a dogs price tag double/tripple it's just a color nothing more. Blue does not make a dog any more or less inferior to any other color dog. While it's true many bully breeder's have bred for the color blue alone. Not every blue dog is the same and not all blue dogs are bully. Each dog should be judged according to the breed standard and their working ability. Not because they are blue or red or white ect. I'll feed a whole farm of working blue dogs so long as they are good driven working dogs color means absolutely nothing to me. I don't have an issue with blue dogs but I have an issue with breeder's who breed for the color blue or any color alone because than your not really breeding anything other than a colored dog.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:29 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Sadieblues i would like to say thankyou for your informative history lesson. I love a good history read i just finished "the american pitbull terrier" By joseph l. colby. Lots of stories but nothin' much to really sink teeth into. In all of the reading ive done only recently do they refer to pitbulls as the color "blue" in the past it was referred to as just plane grey or "grizzle" some even called it a muted black. As far as a color effecting the temperment of a dog that is rediculous. I believe the OFRN nose line was pronounced unworthy of breeding because it had lost gameness. I also read though that it was because the breeder hated those damn red noses LOL. Many dogs colors were unimportant in the past beacuse after all when its rolling around in the dirt all day they are all kinda brown. In response to the history of apbt getting colors from the mastiffs perhaps it is the otherway around. IMO the shape and size of the apbt is ideal for a working dog so it has been bred as the ideal for hundreds of years mastiffs are a long lost son of the original apbt blood. Great post by the way loved the reading.

Last edited by dan'sgrizz; 11-28-2008 at 09:30 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:45 PM   #6 (permalink)
 

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Thank You Dan Grizz I am glad you found it useful I know I did ... On the topic of sheer ignorance It's also little known fact there were many old dogger's who hated red dogs as well they were not worthy enough to lick the boots of those old dogman let alone feed, while they were later able to proove themselves worthy.. It just goes to show you when you focus on something as simple as color to determine a dogs gameness or worthiness to the breed as a whole your not benifiting the breed in any way it's just as bad as those breeder's out there breeding for color alone . Color should not be the sole reason to breed nor should it be the sole reason to determine a good working dog.

Last edited by Sadie; 11-28-2008 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 11-28-2008, 10:39 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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It just goes to show you when you focus on something as simple as color to determine a dogs gameness or worthiness to the breed as a whole your not benifiting the breed in anyway it's just as bad as those breeder's out there breeding for color alone

You go with your bad moderator self...lol
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Old 11-28-2008, 10:40 PM   #8 (permalink)
 

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You go with your bad moderator self...lol


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Old 11-29-2008, 01:13 AM   #9 (permalink)
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One must remember also that doggers faught and bred what was proven worthy. Take a look back at all the old pictures you can find and notice all the variations within them. They were all different sizes, colors, and builds.. Just like any knowledgeable mechanic would say, "You gotta use the right tool for the job"
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Old 11-29-2008, 03:54 AM   #10 (permalink)
 
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Thank You Dan Grizz I am glad you found it useful I know I did ... On the topic of sheer ignorance It's also little known fact there were many old dogger's who hated red dogs as well they were not worthy enough to lick the boots of those old dogman let alone feed, while they were later able to proove themselves worthy.. It just goes to show you when you focus on something as simple as color to determine a dogs gameness or worthiness to the breed as a whole your not benifiting the breed in any way it's just as bad as those breeder's out there breeding for color alone . Color should not be the sole reason to breed nor should it be the sole reason to determine a good working dog.
thanks for the info on the diversity of this awsome breed..............
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:42 AM   #11 (permalink)
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And even if dogmen used rednosed dogs though some despised the color and size of some in the strain because they were sucssesful,wouldnt it be logical to think that the same would go for blue coated dogs,if they would win they would be used,dogmen even fought airdales against full blooded apbts and akitas and mastiff crosses and where expected to believe that not only where blue coated dogs culled based souly on color that besides "colarado imp" none are even on record as being tested besides a dog from the 90's that fans of the blood line claim had its title unjusytly stripped souly based on color?
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Old 11-30-2008, 05:06 AM   #12 (permalink)
 

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Blue dogs are being matched and proving themselves today illegally but make no mistake about it they are being fought while many blue dogs may have been culled based on the ignorance of old dogger's they never went extinct ... Blue is still a legitimate color in this breed and there is no denying that. I understand your dislikes for blue dogs because of the whole bully breeder fad thing going on. But I also remember when red dogs were being bred like candy too I see red bullies overpriced too. The whole point of my post was to put something out there positive and educational about blue apbts/amstaff since it seems that people like to fabricate and base their opinions off their own prejudices.

Last edited by Sadie; 11-30-2008 at 05:10 AM.
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Old 11-30-2008, 12:47 PM   #13 (permalink)
 

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sorry if i offended anyone or if i was offtopic but maybe i mis-intepreted you post

about color reconessence by i dont care who...(exemple) rhodesian ridgebacks..well that is malformation and can cause spine problems, still people cull healthy dogs because they dont have ridgebacks...so i dont care much if blue is a recognized color or not, maybe "it became a color" or "acceptable" but to me its a genetic default and will always be.

i guess we all agree that theres no color in gameness and sorry if i sound lunatic or offtopic

Last edited by lusopitbull; 11-30-2008 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 11-30-2008, 01:22 PM   #14 (permalink)
 

3x Dog of the Month
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lusopitbull View Post
sorry if i offended anyone or if i was offtopic but maybe i mis-intepreted you post

about color reconessence by i dont care who...(exemple) rhodesian ridgebacks..well that is malformation and can cause spine problems, still people cull healthy dogs because they dont have ridgebacks...so i dont care much if blue is a recognized color or not, maybe "it became a color" or "acceptable" but to me its a genetic default and will always be.

i guess we all agree that theres no color in gameness and sorry if i sound lunatic or offtopic

Hey No offense taken everyone has their opinions, likes and dislikes
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Old 12-01-2008, 05:08 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Love the read thanks Sadie... Here is something else that I found while I did research years ago..

Blue Poll AKA "Blue Paul"

No one seems to have full knowledge as to how the Blue Pauls were bred or from where they originally came. There was a story that John Paul Jones, the American sailor, brought them from abroad and landed some when he visited his native town of Kirkcudbright about 1770. The Gypsies around the Kin Tilloch district kept Blue Pauls, which they fought for their own amusement. They were game to the death and could suffer much punishment. They were expert and tricky in their fighting tactics, which made them great favorites with those who indulged in this sport. They maintained that the breed originally came from the Galloway coast, which lends support to the Paul Jones legend. The first dogs to arrive in the United States with the English immigrants in the mid-19th century were the Blue Paul Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier AKA American Pitbull Terrier.

With his excellent fighting skills, the Blue Paul was introduced as part of Staffordshire Bull Terrier breeding in the early 19th century and the blue colouring has appeared in Staffords ever since, in particular, the Blue Staffordshire Bull Terrier. It has also appeared in Pitbulls and a bluetick coloration also appears due to inbreeding.

As we all know the American Staffordshire Terrier is the same as the American Pitbull Terrier, they have different names 'cause they were seperated by the AKC. If you research either pure breed Am-Staff or APBT you will see that they all go back to old game dogs from England, Ireland & Scotland.
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