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Old 02-13-2011, 07:40 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvisfink View Post
Ok so what are you judging this dog to?
Ambully?
Classic?
Pocket Pit?
Extreme BUlly?
Shorty Bull?
Xl Bully?
Biggest Chest?
Extreme Bully?
Those are listed classes at upcomeing AmBully event posted here on GP.com.
What the hell is your standard? You've regurgitated most of the AKC American Staffordshire Terrier standard in your response to the dog posted, but come on. Really WHAT IS THE STANDARD FOR A BULLY? Is it like a Poodle where there are multiple classes? Standard, Medium, Miniature and toy? Im not trying to be a **** Im just uneducated to the standard or multiple standards of a Bully. Educate me! By the way I think MachO's dog rocks for a Bully! Show's what the hell I know about a Bully!
Almost all ABKC events have ABKC sanctioned classes which include Standard, Pocket, XL, Extreme, and Classic. Those are the only sanctioned varieties. One of the most confusing things to outsiders is that alot of ABKC events, the show hosts offer "fun show" catergories which speciality classes by whoever the show host chooses to judge the class. Alot of times these show classes are for people who are interested in participating with their dogs that are not show quality animals therefore they offer insignificant superficial classes like "Biggest Head" and "Widest Chest" and "Most Freaky". Personally as an advocate for the ABKC, I believe these types of events are counter productive to the progression of the American Bully breed and give unknowledged owners a false sense of worth for subpar breeding quality dogs. This feeling is even more intensified when show hosts put cash prizes on these classes, because then breeders see a monetary gain by producing poorly bred animals rather than encouraging ethical responsible breeding practices.

Thus far, I have been reviewing every dog to the Classic class variety standard. I have yet to see a dog posted that I believe truly exhibits the Standard Class breed type, structure or conformation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvisfink View Post
See I learned something new tonight! Thanks Lauren! I didn't know there wasn't an XXL class of Bullies. I'm with Tara I see them advertized all over the internet and Ive seen people on this forum referring to their pups coming from XXL lineage. Id be curious to see how Kennels are looked upon in the Bully world that advertising their dogs as XXL when in actuality theyre not breeding to any set standard. Well save that for another thread.
The XXL thing is nothing more than a sales ploy by kennels. Originally when the ABKC got established breeders were promoting their dogs as XL bullies, but in typical puppy mill fashion breeders couldn't just be satisifed having nice XL Bullies. They began promoting them as a step further as XXL bullies, and I have even seen breeders say XXXL bullies. The dogs are still ideally the same thing, breeders have just tried to make the dog's title sound more impressive to drive up puppy sales.
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Old 02-13-2011, 07:42 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadie View Post
Just out of curiosity I know the ABKC books are closing do you know roughly about how many dogs are currently registered with the ABKC?
To be honest, I am unaware of what the current numbers are. I would be more than happy to speak with the ABKC office and see if I can get a current registration count this coming week.
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Old 02-13-2011, 07:52 AM   #18 (permalink)
 

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Would just be interesting to know I can't remember when the ABKC first opened it's books but if I remember correctly i believe it was back 2004-2005? I know you guys have really grown over the last few years though. I like what you said about doing away with the extreme class I think you are right on the money with that. Until tonight I really thought there were xxl and xxxl bullies so because I didn't see a class for them I thought maybe they fell under the extreme class lol.

Last edited by Sadie; 02-13-2011 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 02-13-2011, 08:11 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sadie View Post
Would just be interesting to know I can't remember when the ABKC first opened it's books but if I remember correctly i believe it was back 2004-2005? I know you guys have really grown over the last few years though. I like what you said about doing away with the extreme class I think you are right on the money with that. Until tonight I really thought there were xxl and xxxl bullies so because I didn't see a class for them I thought maybe they fell under the extreme class lol.

Actually the ABKC wasn't actually established until probably closer to 2006/2007. I think I remember the first ABKC events in late 06 early 07 but the idea had been in the works for a few years previous. I think it was a matter of figuring out the the logistics. You know, just like the APBT is plagued with irresponsible breeders the American Bully community faces the same issues. What makes the American Bully community worse is you get glorified heros such as Fabian (founder of "Remyline") who bought Remy Martin for $500 and a treadmill and has bred his dog to anyone willing to pay $2500 and has produced 1000 pups. Also it's hard for alot of people to put their ethics above the idea of making REAL money and not having to work to get it. Regardless of breed of choice, the idea of making $1000 plus for letting your dog breed with another is hard to turn down when the cash is in your face. Here's the best analogy I can think of, if you watched someone drop $1000 would you keep it or give it back? Alot of people would keep it knowing it is wrong and morally right to give it back.........same ethics apply to these people breeding subpar quality American Bullies for nothing more than the freaky factor to the highest bidder.
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-ABKC CH Razors Nation Honey Boom (No.2 Producing ABKC Female of All Time)
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Old 02-14-2011, 01:59 AM   #20 (permalink)
 

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Manny this is where I guess I get confused for dogs that are am bullies but don't fit the ABKC standard what should they do ? Could this dog be shown under the ukc current standards ?Because some bullies fall more on the apbt side but by there pedigrees they are not APBT'S so what do you recommend an owner to do in that situation ? I can easily spot an adba sytle dog but when dealing with the ukc and ABKC I guess I am confused as to where the line on conformation is drawn as to where the dog should be shown and have a better chance of competing and winning. I do however realize not all dogs are show quality animals.
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Old 02-14-2011, 05:19 AM   #21 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadie View Post
Manny this is where I guess I get confused for dogs that are am bullies but don't fit the ABKC standard what should they do? Could this dog be shown under the ukc current standards? Because some bullies fall more on the apbt side but by there pedigrees they are not APBT'S so what do you recommend an owner to do in that situation? I can easily spot an adba sytle dog but when dealing with the ukc and ABKC I guess I am confused as to where the line on conformation is drawn as to where the dog should be shown and have a better chance of competing and winning. I do however realize not all dogs are show quality animals.
For the most part you answered your own questions, not every dog is gonna be show quality. If I have a dog that does not meet the ABKC standard then I'm not going to show it.

In my opinion this dog carries more of the UKC APBT breed type than an Am Bully, so I think it would have a better chance in the UKC.

Neuter/Spay and enjoy it as a pet. Its not the end of the world if the dog cannot be shown, you can do agility, dock diving, flyball etc. Lots of positive activities owners can still do with their dog.
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:41 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I would have to concur with Manny's evaluation of the your beautiful girl! I also want to commend Manny on his suggestions of other activities to perform with their dog, because just because a dog is not cut out for a show career does not mean there are not other great activities for the dog. Another one he didn't mention, depend on the dog's temperment, is going to therapy dog service.

Sadie brought up a very interesting dilemma in your post:

Quote:
Manny this is where I guess I get confused for dogs that are am bullies but don't fit the ABKC standard what should they do ? Could this dog be shown under the ukc current standards ?Because some bullies fall more on the apbt side but by there pedigrees they are not APBT'S
Their pedigree ARE APBTs. Without getting back into everyone's "personal opinion" of what an APBT, the UKC still recognizes these dogs as APBTs because there are not other breeders mixed it. (Remember the AmStaff was considered an APBT to the UKC at the time) This is the reason why I say not all Razors Edge dogs are American Bullies, because in the process of trying to produce conformational quality American Bullies, some of the by product have been very successful UKC show APBTs. But like Manny said, not all dogs are show dogs either, and have conformational faults or disqualifing faults that limit their ability to show.
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-ABKC CH Razors Nation Honey Boom (No.2 Producing ABKC Female of All Time)
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Old 02-14-2011, 09:12 PM   #23 (permalink)
 

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Originally Posted by LoudMouf View Post
I would have to concur with Manny's evaluation of the your beautiful girl! I also want to commend Manny on his suggestions of other activities to perform with their dog, because just because a dog is not cut out for a show career does not mean there are not other great activities for the dog. Another one he didn't mention, depend on the dog's temperment, is going to therapy dog service.

Sadie brought up a very interesting dilemma in your post:



Their pedigree ARE APBTs. Without getting back into everyone's "personal opinion" of what an APBT, the UKC still recognizes these dogs as APBTs because there are not other breeders mixed it. (Remember the AmStaff was considered an APBT to the UKC at the time) This is the reason why I say not all Razors Edge dogs are American Bullies, because in the process of trying to produce conformational quality American Bullies, some of the by product have been very successful UKC show APBTs. But like Manny said, not all dogs are show dogs either, and have conformational faults or disqualifing faults that limit their ability to show.

LOL It's funny because you have people mixing show blood into game blood, bully blood into show blood, bully blood into game blood. And we even have a new name for it all PITTERSTAFF! lmao!!! I am surprised you don't see breeder's now pushing these dogs as pitterstaff's and selling them as such lol.... it's so silly and just adds so much more confusion to it all . The registries don't care though they are out for profit bottom line. We had another heated debate about why someone would take a show bred dog AKC/UKC and cross it into Game Blood. I know not everyone agree's but I am sure you can at least respect and understand as someone trying to preserve the American Bully and cut out all the garbage that goes on within your breed from poor breeding practices. Why us APBT/Game dog folks get so offended when we see show breeder's taking AKC or UKC show blood and crossing it into game blood when we are working to preserve these working bloodlines that dog men spent their entire lives selectively breeding. It's just like trying to tell a die hard AKC Amstaff owner that they should register their dog's with the ADBA/UKC as APBT's. These guys don't want to have any part of it because these registries will not recognize their dogs as American Staffordshire Terries when it's clear to all parties on either side of the fence that the Amstaff has been selectively bred for the show ring for quite some time now they have evolved into their own breed. Physically the AKC staff no longer remotely even looks the same as an APBT nor are they bred for the same purpose and function. Like I said it just adds more drama and confusion for all sides trying to maintain and preserve their breed of choice.

Last edited by Sadie; 02-14-2011 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 02-14-2011, 09:35 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sadie View Post
LOL It's funny because you have people mixing show blood into game blood, bully blood into show blood, bully blood into game blood. And we even have a new name for it all PITTERSTAFF! lmao!!! I am surprised you don't see breeder's now pushing these dogs as pitterstaff's and selling them as such lol.... it's so silly and just adds so much more confusion to it all . The registries don't care though they are out for the money bottom line. We had another heated debate about why someone would take a show bred dog AKC/UKC and cross it into Game Blood. I know not everyone agree's but I am sure you can at least respect and understand as someone trying to preserve the American Bully and cut out all the garbage that goes on within your breed from poor breeding practices. Why us APBT/Game dog folks get so offended when we see show breeder's taking AKC or UKC show blood and crossing it into game blood. It's just like trying to tell a die hard AKC Amstaff owner that they should register their dog's with the ADBA/UKC as APBT's. These guys don't want to have any part of it because these registries will not recognize their dogs as American Staffordshire Terries when it's clear to all of that the Amstaff has been selectively bred for the show ring for quite some time now. Physically the AKC staff no longer remotely even looks the same nor are they bred for the same purpose and function. Like I said it just adds more drama and confusion for all sides trying to maintain and preserve their breed of choice.
Actually I have never even heard anyone use the term "Pitterstaff" until I came to GP. In fact I think it is probably one of the silliest things i have ever heard, and seems like a term coined by someone trying to discredit breeders of previous AKC/UKC dogs that were showing in the UKC. Like I have previous stated, until last year the UKC did not have any issue accepting the AmStaff as APBTs so people did not need to call them "Pitterstaffs" because in the eyes of only registry that would accept both dogs (the UKC) they would be APBTs. Actually we can agree on one thing, die hard AKC people (of any breed) feel their registry is above every other registry, following this same philosophy do ADBA breeders worry about registering with the AADR, UCA, or any other registry that they feel is beneath their registries status?

AKC
UKC - ADBA
AADR - ABKC - BFKC
UCA - ABBA - RKC - ANY OTHER BS REGISTRY

It seems unlike until last year this was the pyramid structure that registries followed. Paperwork could always transfer down the pyramid but never UP and sideways. If I really wanted to break it down more, there is a three level and fourth where paperwork is laterally accepted then you have all the BS registries on the bottom, but this give you a general idea of how the registry pyramid is for the APBT/Amstaff.
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-ABKC CH Razors Nation Flex (3 Legs Towards GRCH Title)
-ABKC CH Razors Nation Zado (2 Legs Towards GRCH Title)
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Old 02-14-2011, 09:50 PM   #25 (permalink)
 

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See the people who I am close to in the dog world are no longer registering their dog's or the litter's they produce with any of the above registers. Most of them are just keeping hand written pedigree's nowadays a few up coming dogs I am adding to my yard will not be registered not that they can't be but by choice will not be registered. I have quite a few buddies who do show with the AADR .... My dog's are both ADBA/BFKC registered I also do not breed as I have no reason to. But I get where you are coming from I actually don't like to get caught up in the registry BS because I understand that as long as profit comes from registering dogs there will always be BS that surrounds it all. And yes I agree that term Pitterstaff really is stupid and it irks the crap out of me when I hear people use it and push it as if it's some sort of established breed LOL. But what can you do.. I am sure tomorrow it will be something else .... I guess I am just big on preserving these working lines we have left that haven't been destroyed or ruined by BYB's ....
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:33 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sadie View Post
See the people who I am close to in the dog world are no longer registering their dog's or the litter's they produce with any of the above registers. Most of them are just keeping hand written pedigree's nowadays a few up coming dogs I am adding to my yard will not be registered not that they can't be but by choice will not be registered. I have quite a few buddies who do show with the AADR .... My dog's are both ADBA/BFKC registered I also do not breed as I have no reason to. But I get where you are coming from I actually don't like to get caught up in the registry BS because I understand that as long as profit comes from registering dogs there will always be BS that surrounds it all. And yes I agree that term Pitterstaff really is stupid and it irks the crap out of me when I hear people use it and push it as if it's some sort of established breed LOL. But what can you do.. I am sure tomorrow it will be something else .... I guess I am just big on preserving these working lines we have left that haven't been destroyed or ruined by BYB's ....
That is going to further contribute to the issue.
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-ABKC GRCH Bullseye R.E. Gotti
-ABKC GRCH Razors Nation Fiasco
-ABKC CH Serrato's Princess (Oldest ABKC CH Female)
-ABKC CH Razors Nation Honey Boom (No.2 Producing ABKC Female of All Time)
-ABKC CH Razors Nation Flex (3 Legs Towards GRCH Title)
-ABKC CH Razors Nation Zado (2 Legs Towards GRCH Title)
along with 5 other ABKC Champion American Bullies

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Old 02-15-2011, 02:57 AM   #27 (permalink)
 

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Not really because they are not breeding to the public everything they breed is for themselves so I don't see how that could contribute to the problem. These guys will rarely let a dog go and like I said if they do its going to someone within their circle they are not sending these dogs to just anyone.
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:29 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sadie View Post
Not really because they are not breeding to the public everything they breed is for themselves so I don't see how that could contribute to the problem. These guys will rarely let a dog go and like I said if they do its going to someone within their circle they are not sending these dogs to just anyone.
I understand they are breeding for themselves, but you can not control every dog you breed. Producing dogs is a trickle down effect and no matter how much you attempt to keep them all to yourself down the cycle dogs always get out which adds to the problem. No one is exempt from the overpopulation issue of the bully breeds, no even the most rare game lines or the most selectively bully breeder. If we are producing dogs, we are STILL part of the problem. I'm sorry I can't condone that.
__________________
-Devin Phillips-
FormerABKC Rep.
Loud Mouf Photo

-ABKC GRCH Bullseye R.E. Gotti
-ABKC GRCH Razors Nation Fiasco
-ABKC CH Serrato's Princess (Oldest ABKC CH Female)
-ABKC CH Razors Nation Honey Boom (No.2 Producing ABKC Female of All Time)
-ABKC CH Razors Nation Flex (3 Legs Towards GRCH Title)
-ABKC CH Razors Nation Zado (2 Legs Towards GRCH Title)
along with 5 other ABKC Champion American Bullies

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Old 02-15-2011, 04:16 AM   #29 (permalink)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudMouf View Post
I understand they are breeding for themselves, but you can not control every dog you breed. Producing dogs is a trickle down effect and no matter how much you attempt to keep them all to yourself down the cycle dogs always get out which adds to the problem. No one is exempt from the overpopulation issue of the bully breeds, no even the most rare game lines or the most selectively bully breeder. If we are producing dogs, we are STILL part of the problem. I'm sorry I can't condone that.
Yes there is always a risk in breeding this trickle down effect apply's to everyone breeding I agree with that even the best breeder with the best intentions can't control what another person does with their dogs. These folks are not breeding dog's of unknown linage they just don't register these dogs for their own personal reasons however they know exactly what they are breeding and hand written pedigree's are not a bad thing dog men have kept them for years. Hell there are plenty of dogs registered who's papers are bogus so in all honesty it just depends on the breeder and how trustworthy that breeder is even with paper's. It's too easy to hang paper's and it's been going on for years. I can say that people like the one's I know are very well aware of the problem which is why they rarely breed and when they do they keep what they breed 99% of the time. It's very rare for them to let a dog go and if it does it's kept within the circle they don't allow their dog's to go to the general population their circles are closed they only deal with so many people so if you are able to ever get a dog off them your lucky. As my mentor said to me I don't need to pay the ADBA to tell me how my dog's are bred. I understand you don't condone hand written pedigree's but IMO I don't have an issue with them so long as the man who is breeding and keeping the handwritten peds is an honest breeder. I don't think everyone should be keeping hand written pedigree's either there is nothing wrong with registering your dog's if you so choose to. There are reasons why someone would choose not to register their dogs but I am not going into that one LOL ...
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Old 02-15-2011, 06:32 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadie View Post
Yes there is always a risk in breeding this trickle down effect apply's to everyone breeding I agree with that even the best breeder with the best intentions can't control what another person does with their dogs. These folks are not breeding dog's of unknown linage they just don't register these dogs for their own personal reasons however they know exactly what they are breeding and hand written pedigree's are not a bad thing dog men have kept them for years. Hell there are plenty of dogs registered who's papers are bogus so in all honesty it just depends on the breeder and how trustworthy that breeder is even with paper's. It's too easy to hang paper's and it's been going on for years. I can say that people like the one's I know are very well aware of the problem which is why they rarely breed and when they do they keep what they breed 99% of the time. It's very rare for them to let a dog go and if it does it's kept within the circle they don't allow their dog's to go to the general population their circles are closed they only deal with so many people so if you are able to ever get a dog off them your lucky. As my mentor said to me I don't need to pay the ADBA to tell me how my dog's are bred. I understand you don't condone hand written pedigree's but IMO I don't have an issue with them so long as the man who is breeding and keeping the handwritten peds is an honest breeder. I don't think everyone should be keeping hand written pedigree's either there is nothing wrong with registering your dog's if you so choose to. There are reasons why someone would choose not to register their dogs but I am not going into that one LOL ...
Then please tell them to cull everything they are not personally keeping in their own yard and I will be 100% supportive.
__________________
-Devin Phillips-
FormerABKC Rep.
Loud Mouf Photo

-ABKC GRCH Bullseye R.E. Gotti
-ABKC GRCH Razors Nation Fiasco
-ABKC CH Serrato's Princess (Oldest ABKC CH Female)
-ABKC CH Razors Nation Honey Boom (No.2 Producing ABKC Female of All Time)
-ABKC CH Razors Nation Flex (3 Legs Towards GRCH Title)
-ABKC CH Razors Nation Zado (2 Legs Towards GRCH Title)
along with 5 other ABKC Champion American Bullies

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