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Old 02-19-2012, 12:36 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Drei Raeuber View Post
What does game mean?
Gameness simply refers to a hounds inability to quit under extreme circumstances.. For the APBT, it is matching.. For a Presa it would be stopping a threat from the handler.. Injured, broken bones or even near death.. Its a mentality of constructed ability to not comprehend risk, against all odds finish the task at all cost.. Or die trying.. This CANNOT be trained into a hound however this ability, mentality can be lost just as easily as gained.. It takes EXTREMELY hard work to keep this instilled, the pay off is just as immense.. Dogmen have broken down in tears after losing a hound, for some it changes them completely.. No better example than Victor Aycart after the loss of Mayday.
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Old 02-19-2012, 12:45 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KMdogs View Post
Gameness simply refers to a hounds inability to quit under extreme circumstances.. For the APBT, it is matching.. For a Presa it would be stopping a threat from the handler.. Injured, broken bones or even near death.. Its a mentality of constructed ability to not comprehend risk, against all odds finish the task at all cost.. Or die trying.. This CANNOT be trained into a hound however this ability, mentality can be lost just as easily as gained.. It takes EXTREMELY hard work to keep this instilled, the pay off is just as immense.. Dogmen have broken down in tears after losing a hound, for some it changes them completely.. No better example than Victor Aycart after the loss of Mayday.
well articulated.
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Posted by KMdogs
We always have to humanize dogs actions, we feel oh the dog is tall so we are helping when in reality its more natural for a dog to eat on the ground... And healthier
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:33 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Here is a thread on Mayday. I know its a bit off topic but now that KM mentioned him figure ide post some history on him as well...being that he was from my neck of the woods

Southern Kennels GR CH Mayday ROM

And for historical purposes and entertainment
3xW or more = CH
5XW or more = GRCH

Sorry, no more thread hi jacking by me...back to breeders! Lol
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We always have to humanize dogs actions, we feel oh the dog is tall so we are helping when in reality its more natural for a dog to eat on the ground... And healthier
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:43 AM   #49 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by KMdogs View Post
Gameness simply refers to a hounds inability to quit under extreme circumstances.. For the APBT, it is matching.. For a Presa it would be stopping a threat from the handler.. Injured, broken bones or even near death.. Its a mentality of constructed ability to not comprehend risk, against all odds finish the task at all cost.. Or die trying.. This CANNOT be trained into a hound however this ability, mentality can be lost just as easily as gained.. It takes EXTREMELY hard work to keep this instilled, the pay off is just as immense.. Dogmen have broken down in tears after losing a hound, for some it changes them completely.. No better example than Victor Aycart after the loss of Mayday.
So gameness is for you what I would refer to as hardness?
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:48 AM   #50 (permalink)
 
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So gameness is for you what I would refer to as hardness?
I would think of it more as heart. Like a you know.like the Rocky movies. No matter the beating the lilguy keeps coming back for more. Even if all seem lost.
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:59 AM   #51 (permalink)
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So gameness is for you what I would refer to as hardness?
No, hardness does not equal gameness.. A "hard dog" can easily cur or go cold.. Hardness is more equal to the threshold one can take before hitting the breaking point.. Its all mentality..Gameness has no comprehension as the threshold is so immense, on the verge of death that hound will keep going.. Mentality and heart..The word "quit" has zero meaning, a hard dog will generally be broken long before this ability..
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:28 AM   #52 (permalink)
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No, hardness does not equal gameness.. A "hard dog" can easily cur or go cold.. Hardness is more equal to the threshold one can take before hitting the breaking point.. Its all mentality..Gameness has no comprehension as the threshold is so immense, on the verge of death that hound will keep going.. Mentality and heart..The word "quit" has zero meaning, a hard dog will generally be broken long before this ability..
well said...........
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:31 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Just pointing out that just cause a dog was not a ch. Does not mean it is a cur. But yes they did title the dogs. Even a dog that only won once was declared a 1xW meaning it had won a match.
A conditioned bulldog being put through a real keep will show a bad hip or knee. I would wonder what the precentage of old working dog produced would be to those show breed or bred with no purpose, that actually have faults that hurt their performance. One more thing that dogmen did well was cull unsuitable dog.




Nothing left to add.. .if it can be said it has been said..
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:45 AM   #54 (permalink)
 

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Nothing left to add.. .if it can be said it has been said..
very well said
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:48 PM   #55 (permalink)
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^^^ Yuup

A dog that has a "never say die" attitude, that will push through whatever adversity to complete the task...even to the point of death.

And actually the dogmen of old did title their dogs...Ch and GrCh and gameness is what set apart the Champions from the curs.
I should have clarified myself when I said that the old dogmen didn't title their bulldogs. I was referring to the titles sought after in today's arena. The old dogmen were after match wins, and yes titles were bestowed upon them. My point was that they didn't breed "show and no go" dogs, and knew what they were looking for without the need for approval.
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:43 PM   #56 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMdogs View Post
No, hardness does not equal gameness.. A "hard dog" can easily cur or go cold.. Hardness is more equal to the threshold one can take before hitting the breaking point.. Its all mentality..Gameness has no comprehension as the threshold is so immense, on the verge of death that hound will keep going.. Mentality and heart..The word "quit" has zero meaning, a hard dog will generally be broken long before this ability..

So what kind of Balance do you look for in Pit Bulls? Is there even some form of Balance? Gamness sounds very extreme to me. When does Gamness kick in? What Situations is it good for?

Dog Fights are illegal so that purpose is out the window. Is it in reference to weight pulling, that they simply don't give up, even if they may die from exhaustion?
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:09 PM   #57 (permalink)
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as I've explained in many of my posts... My dogs have replaced heelers, shepherds, rotties, gr pyrenese, and others as stock and land guardian from predators and usually coyotes kill most of the dogs.. They taunt a dog out with playful behavior to only be torn apart by jackals, coyotes and jackals are almost identical, both bite chunks of the prey as they chase it down, eating one bite at a time. Coyotes and wolves also disenbowel a dog by grabbing the taint, ..

the game gene was bred to be sound.. the most sound on the planet a matter a fact.. just cause some people breed fight crazy dogs does not mean that .. that is what game is.. game test was to see if the dog held sound.. when it was at its threshold and only the dog knows what it's threshold is. No curs allowed.

My dogs kill so many coyotes they started eating them and I guarantee at this point I haven't seen a coyote or wolf yet that doesn't run for its life when we hit the mountains, I run with 2 sometimes 3 dogs 2 leashed and one sensory. Moose inwhich are not scared of dogs or coyotes, run like they are running from a pack of wolves,,.. you better move!!!... if one got a hold the nose of a moose OMG be a long day. Seen em grab a back thigh sending a big bull in a frenzy and then a panic run cause he coudlnt kick the dog or horn him.. that was a stubborn bull that wouldnt leave the property.. Let the bulldog go.

I've also hunted bear with my dogs, a favorite by heart died fighting the bear rather than subbdoing the bear which my other bulldog did HOAGIE .. he climbed the back and grab ahold between the shoulders and up the tree he went and when he let go he was trying to run so fast to grab that bear he slowly slid down the tree, it was quite remarkable. I've been hooked ever sense and more for the TREE! I love the chase and the TREE! I havent taken a bear yet.

What does game matter anyway?

Well the game trait is AMERICAN as it gets and the dogs have been said to be far better in the 40-70s than they ever were at any period..

The mascot for the USA in WWI and WWII .. The most decorated war dog sgt stubby subdued a wild bison after WWI thats a feat no single canine but him has been recorded doing so.

American Pit Bull Terrier .. American Game Bulldog .. The all American All purpose Dog, the Nanny Dog, the dog that can out do any other dog at what it was bred to do; then whip em when he's/she's done, .. the Game Bulldog aka the APBT~

Doesnt come without breeding for game, the package of the body is intuned with the genetic game trait. The further from game the further from performance bodied and minded dogs. Its the dog that does not fear and if he does.. he hulks out and consumes the fear as he cripples the beast in front of him. I live in the woods and I recommend everyone return to the country, thats where we all come from anyway. What happens your walking your GSD and some ghetto dog runs loose and breaks your dog? You'll wish you had a good game bred dog to prevent your lil baby from getting hurt, Dogs don't live by paper laws of man... Animals have the right to be animals.. and we the people of the USA have every Constitutional and God given right to ... LIVE FREE

Whats the use of having a dog you have to look out for or worry about?

There is no use in having a dog that is of no use.....

I'll take my All American nanny dog the .45 on command any day over any other breed.
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Last edited by Firehazard; 02-19-2012 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:24 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Outstanding post Stan.. These hounds should be rugged, endurance, heart and respected drives (already discussed here) to finish the tasks.. Gameness, if you will, is extreme.. Theoretically you can argue goes against animal instincts and evolution as a wide animal that possess this genetic trait will be a dead animal.. As animals fight for various reasons, for food, dominance and rank within their own packs, to take over another pack, fear and survival... However, animals also have the ability and mentality to back down and run if needed.. For again, survival.. A game hound does not cur unless runs cold..

Stan really summed it all up for myself included as to what i expect from a Bulldog, as for APBTs.. They are instilled for one purpose and thats matching.. Legally in many places around the world still being bred true, where they are illegal.. Few risk it all, others have found other uses that date back in the era of bull baiting.. Breed back to the "original Bulldog" as genetically, its all there and all functional.

There is a significant difference between the past and present in handling, care, etc.. Many want to believe there is no difference, they are only blinded by media "truths"..

The Bulldog is here to stay and by virtually any account, is the real versatile all in one package.. Hell, many breeds owe their thanks to these hounds for existence.. Many crossed or selectively bred.
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:00 AM   #59 (permalink)
 
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Question, if you have a dog like Firehazard described. Are you able to call that dog off if you want to or are they so set in their ways and in the "game" that they don't hear you anymore?
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:06 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
as I've explained in many of my posts... My dogs have replaced heelers, shepherds, rotties, gr pyrenese, and others as stock and land guardian from predators and usually coyotes kill most of the dogs.. They taunt a dog out with playful behavior to only be torn apart by jackals, coyotes and jackals are almost identical, both bite chunks of the prey as they chase it down, eating one bite at a time. Coyotes and wolves also disenbowel a dog by grabbing the taint, ..

the game gene was bred to be sound.. the most sound on the planet a matter a fact.. just cause some people breed fight crazy dogs does not mean that .. that is what game is.. game test was to see if the dog held sound.. when it was at its threshold and only the dog knows what it's threshold is. No curs allowed.

My dogs kill so many coyotes they started eating them and I guarantee at this point I haven't seen a coyote or wolf yet that doesn't run for its life when we hit the mountains, I run with 2 sometimes 3 dogs 2 leashed and one sensory. Moose inwhich are not scared of dogs or coyotes, run like they are running from a pack of wolves,,.. you better move!!!... if one got a hold the nose of a moose OMG be a long day. Seen em grab a back thigh sending a big bull in a frenzy and then a panic run cause he coudlnt kick the dog or horn him.. that was a stubborn bull that wouldnt leave the property.. Let the bulldog go.

I've also hunted bear with my dogs, a favorite by heart died fighting the bear rather than subbdoing the bear which my other bulldog did HOAGIE .. he climbed the back and grab ahold between the shoulders and up the tree he went and when he let go he was trying to run so fast to grab that bear he slowly slid down the tree, it was quite remarkable. I've been hooked ever sense and more for the TREE! I love the chase and the TREE! I havent taken a bear yet.

What does game matter anyway?

Well the game trait is AMERICAN as it gets and the dogs have been said to be far better in the 40-70s than they ever were at any period..

The mascot for the USA in WWI and WWII .. The most decorated war dog sgt stubby subdued a wild bison after WWI thats a feat no single canine but him has been recorded doing so.

American Pit Bull Terrier .. American Game Bulldog .. The all American All purpose Dog, the Nanny Dog, the dog that can out do any other dog at what it was bred to do; then whip em when he's/she's done, .. the Game Bulldog aka the APBT~

Doesnt come without breeding for game, the package of the body is intuned with the genetic game trait. The further from game the further from performance bodied and minded dogs. Its the dog that does not fear and if he does.. he hulks out and consumes the fear as he cripples the beast in front of him. I live in the woods and I recommend everyone return to the country, thats where we all come from anyway. What happens your walking your GSD and some ghetto dog runs loose and breaks your dog? You'll wish you had a good game bred dog to prevent your lil baby from getting hurt, Dogs don't live by paper laws of man... Animals have the right to be animals.. and we the people of the USA have every Constitutional and God given right to ... LIVE FREE

Whats the use of having a dog you have to look out for or worry about?

There is no use in having a dog that is of no use.....

I'll take my All American nanny dog the .45 on command any day over any other breed.
Stan, too bad I cant give you anymore rep right now

Love me some Hoagie!!
__________________
All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, but the LORD weighs the motives.
Proverbs 16:2


Posted by KMdogs
We always have to humanize dogs actions, we feel oh the dog is tall so we are helping when in reality its more natural for a dog to eat on the ground... And healthier
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