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Old 11-24-2012, 01:54 AM   #16 (permalink)
 
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Hotchkis the mistake you make is the same as many I see make this same argument. That is to assume you know anything about what people do and don't do with the dog they keep. Pedigree breed only allow some on the benefit of having an idea of what to expect form a tie. No matter what you breed for if you have experience with a serrate family of dogs and keep then keeping the ped in ind will allow you to guess a lil better on what you might get. Kind give you list of traits to expect. you know red boy dogs are game or hamonds dogs are long bodied. This is why knowing the line and keeping it close is good for a program. Hope this makes sence.
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Old 11-24-2012, 04:45 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
Go with Heinzl.. All purpose all American breed because that is what the APBT is supposed to be.. that ironically also why its the best [] dog around the world. The original bulldog was throwin into the [] and forever dubbed "pit bull".. Just like the best of our American boxers our fighting dogs are working class

The APBT should be in the working class.. They also should adhere to ADBA standards..
So would you say that the APBT was/is a better worker (depending on what consitutes work) than fighter? I understand the working class description because of their "work" related history and blue collar background, but labeling them a working breed seems entirely different IMO. It lumps them into a category shared by many breeds and overshadows what they were/are the best at...second to none. Do you view the APBT as a working breed that excells(ed) in fighting, or a fighting breed that excells at working? Could they be placed into both categories? Too many questions LOL? Just humor me Stan
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Old 11-24-2012, 05:28 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I say working first and foremost because the foundation breeds used were workers more than fighters. I understand why the breed was created but since its always been a breed utilized for working I think worker more than fighter.


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Old 11-24-2012, 11:37 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Kwhitaker0604,

I would agree that game breeds used to hunt hogs and bear display a tremendous amount of heart. There is really nothing closer to pitting two dogs against one another than hunting big game with them.

The only argument that I'd make is that while the best hunting dogs are bulldogs, from what I understand they are almost completely non-dog aggressive and bred to be so with good reason: you want the dog to get ahold of the hog, not one of the hounds that cornered it.

So, that kind of begs the question, are these bulldogs pit bulls in the traditional sense of the word?

Fire,

Shocking that your dog killed a moose. That's the biggest animal on two continents. Most grizzly bears don't have the nerve to tackle a healthy bull moose. Impressive.

Posted their diet in another thread, but more or less it's chicken, beef, pork, fish, mutton, eggs, milk, brown rice, fruits and vegetables and just about anything gluten-free that comes off the table.

Rudy,

I did make the assumption that most breeders don't know if their dogs are game or not based on the premise that most people probably aren't rolling their dogs to find out. If I'm wrong and a majority of breeders are testing their dogs -- which I highly doubt -- then my entire argument is flawed.

However, if I'm right and breeders are breeding untested dogs and selecting said dogs solely based upon physical traits, then my argument stands. Like I said, the notion of breeding for physical characteristics like structure -- you mentioned that Hammond dogs are racy -- is only slightly more respectable than breeding for color.

I guess to get back to my point I'd have to ask, how can a breeder say his Red Dog line of pups is game without having done something illegal or imported them?

Others,

Regarding the game breed vs working breed discussion: we all know what they are, -- or at least were -- but "working breed" seems like the next logical category. They've probably done more work than most working breeds, but I'm with St. Francis, somehow it just doesn't seem to fit.

Anyone want to make the argument that a new category of breed should be introduced, the "nanny breed?" (Don't take that comment too seriously, just a joke.)

Last edited by hotchkiss; 11-24-2012 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:53 AM   #20 (permalink)
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They downed a moose.. a slobberknocked 3000lb pile of moose Didn't kill just wore plumb out. The one Hammonds Tanner Taf aka Duchesse got ahold of didn't get up until noon the next day according to the neighbor who's land she was on. I know.. Thats my point... there are still real bulldogs and they are workers IMO the fight is the work. For a rancher a pissed off bull would need such a dog; or to protect all calves and kill some coyotes or feral dogs, all in which I've done with my dogs or sold dogs to people who have done later.. Replacing Heelers, BCs, Rotties, Great Pyrenees and others.


St.Francis.. I keep it simple and follow the work and opinions of the dogs left to us by Colby, Heinzl, So on..
To me fighting is working.. you'll never work as hard and fast in your life as you will the 3 minutes in that [] IMO thats why the best boxers are working class..


Also, I've had a bulldog that could be a better stock dog than any heeler or Border Collie, it just took someone to raise em for that. so on and so on.. thus the saying... by Colby later Armitage..
"the bulldog/apbt/pitbull can whip any dog at what it was bred to do, then whip em when its done" if the dog cannot do this IMO it is not a genuine APBT. by the standards of the men who had the best stock in the world.. The two purest strains of APBT OFRN and COLBY both go back to dog that could do it all ..

As we get further along in a world full of BS I find it essential to follow the old men who had no time for anything other than simple truth.

I need one COMPLETE dog and believe that most of us also need the same type dog... The true "Nanny dog" is the [] bred bull and terrier breed of dogs of the 20s-50s. The All purpose All American dog .. Howard Heinzl until any of us reach his knowledge and clout I'd say his sayings and opinion on the dog out weigh mine or anyone elses. JMO
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Last edited by Firehazard; 11-24-2012 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:07 PM   #21 (permalink)
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if they were working class better truths of the breed would be recognized because those would be the traits to honor and breed for with in a show just like the UKC held until well they went foo-foo.. UKC is supposed to be strictly working dogs. The APBT was their Golden child they dropped on its face with the legislature of 1976. Everyone knew the APBT was the ultimate working dog ... piss on politics, I wanna see the dog in working class. Because I've never seen a harder working dog useful in all venues of the canine world.
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:12 PM   #22 (permalink)
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It's going to be tough to convince me that -- as a whole -- the breed isn't headed in the wrong direction. The following breeders are harvesting couch potatos. Their dogs have the bodies of English Bulldogs. The dogs look exhausted from sitting.

The following are photos of traditional pits - Colby's American Pit Bull Terriers

Below are the first results when you type "pit bull breeders" into google.

.: IRON MAN PITS :.pitbull males, pit bulls, pitbulls, blue pitbulls, bully pitbulls, blue pit bull puppies,american pitbull terrier, working pit bulls, pit bulls on springpole, huge blue pit bulls, blue bully pits, pits, blue pits, blue pitbull pupp

Scroll down on this page and take a look at the piece of pork fat being slated as an "extreme pit bull," then go back and look at the Colby photos again.
http://www.xtremebullypitbulls.com/

Scroll down and look at QUAKE JR. That's a pit? Jesus.
http://www.ultimatebluepitbulls.com/studs.html

Last edited by hotchkiss; 11-24-2012 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 11-24-2012, 02:37 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Francis View Post
Working...fighting...everyone has their own interpretation. I prefer fighting breed. American Working Bull Terrier? Doesn't sound right to me LOL. The [] = Pit = fighting. But I suppose they could be considered both these days. Not arguing with you, just throwing out my two cents
I know exactly what your saying I look at it like this, before they were [] dogs the foundation was strong working dogs. Then they were pitted against each other. In my eyes that was not just a sport, those dogs really worked their asses off in the []. Not only were they hard and fast in the [] but they were great utility dogs as well. Like Stan said before they work their asses off after boar or bear, even coyotes All of it is work in my eyes
I just don't really get the point of this thread I guess lol. AmStaffs, and AmBullies are bred for looks and structure not the APBT. APBTs are still being bred for working abilities wether it's hunting, agility, PP, whatever but these dogs are not a breed bred for form over function.
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Old 11-24-2012, 02:43 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotchkiss View Post
It's going to be tough to convince me that -- as a whole -- the breed isn't headed in the wrong direction. The following breeders are harvesting couch potatos. Their dogs have the bodies of English Bulldogs. The dogs look exhausted from sitting.

The following are photos of traditional pits - Colby's American Pit Bull Terriers

Below are the first results when you type "pit bull breeders" into google.

.: IRON MAN PITS :.pitbull males, pit bulls, pitbulls, blue pitbulls, bully pitbulls, blue pit bull puppies,american pitbull terrier, working pit bulls, pit bulls on springpole, huge blue pit bulls, blue bully pits, pits, blue pits, blue pitbull pupp

Scroll down on this page and take a look at the piece of pork fat being slated as an "extreme pit bull," then go back and look at the Colby photos again.
Xtreme Bully Pitbulls | XXL Pitbull Kennels | Pitbull Puppies For Sale

Scroll down and look at QUAKE JR. That's a pit? Jesus.
Our Pitbull Studs
Those are NOT APBTs those are American Bullies, two completely different breeds.
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Old 11-24-2012, 02:57 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotchkiss View Post
It's going to be tough to convince me that -- as a whole -- the breed isn't headed in the wrong direction. The following breeders are harvesting couch potatos. Their dogs have the bodies of English Bulldogs. The dogs look exhausted from sitting.
this! i made and posted this:


and made a comment that the obese AmBully was tired from just standing there! i got a comment that said "how do u know he didnt just get done running" LOL i laughed my ass off, i think that dog would avoid running at all costs. total ! i mean there are nice bullies and i think starting their own breed was a good step, now we just need people to acknowledge them for what they are, American Bully and not APBT at all. but the best way to do that would be to get them in AKC or UKC, which i dont see happening....

although on a side note, i was watching the thanksgiving AKC show on tv last night and they had a new breed that sounds like a similar situation. the new Russel Terrier is now a different breed from the Parsons Terrier.
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Old 11-24-2012, 03:14 PM   #26 (permalink)
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i made that post because there was people in that thread with no business telling people anything about dogs.

all the [] is, to these dogs, is breeding rights. only those tried and true will continue to produce perfection. this is how it is with all animals on this planet, people included.
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Where in there did fighting serve any purpose other than for old men to gamble and a breed of dog was created? -American_Pit13
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Old 11-24-2012, 03:15 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Sounds to me like you got confused by all the bully breeders who keep insisting they own "pitbulls" Pitbull is not a breed. It's a stupid word used by the media to describe many many breeds. So yes American Bullies, APBTs, and AmStaffs are all classified as "pitbulls" but that doesn't make them all the same breed because they're not. The dogs your looking at and talking about are American Bullies. While yes they are often described as "pitbulls" they are a completely separate breed from the American Pit Bull Terrier.
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:26 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I believe working ability and structure are two that should go hand in hand when trying to breed the ultimate dog. As you can have a dog with all the game in the world, and it could be inside a cruddy body that just can't. But put that spirit in a near perfectly proportioned body and you'd bet that's one handy dog.


Just because I'd like to see a nicely structured APBT after seeing some painful physiques <3
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:34 PM   #29 (permalink)
 
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Try googling american pit bull terrier the thing you find change. The fact that you know little bout people with fairly well bred dogs shiws that you have no clue where to even start looking for people with traditional working stock no one rolling dogs is telling people they are that would be crazy. Any good dog will be were you find it and what you make of it. Ou may be right most people are not testing for game in the box but are doing the best to keep the breed a working breed with out work the apbt will not exist..

If I may ask what lines are your dogs since you seem to know " what they are capable of" I would like to know how you can ask this question and still feel your dogs are so capable? Maybe the pedigre?.?. Just wondering!
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:38 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I've asked twice... good luck..
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