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Old 11-23-2012, 02:10 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Pedigree Breeders -- Continuing Zohawn's Last Line

Pedigree breeders is a topic that interests me, primarily because I don't really understand what pedigree breeders are trying to get out of pit bull stock anymore.

Legally, it's indirectly a crime to breed for game anymore, so I guess they're breeding solely for looks. That being the case, some might argue then that Pit Bulls are no different than toy breeds in regard to the traits desired. It's all about structure and character and expression now.

Astute labs are bred to produce pups with hunting potential. Dobermans and German Shepherds and Rottweilers are bred to guard and attack. Huskies are bred for strength and endurance in cold conditions.

What are Pits bred for now, now that game isn't a desired trait?

I'm not criticizing the breed, I truly love Pits and I don't think that in the 100 years since pit contests have been outlawed that breeders have managed to breed all the game out of them, but it does make one wonder what the future holds.

Kennel clubs and pedigree breeders have cut the tie between the breed and its heritage by discouraging traits that would never have been of any concern in the past, not when the purpose of breeding was gameness. Now a dudley nose is a fault. No one cared in the past as long as the dog had heart. Too much white is a fault. There were many champions that were a majority white. Racy bodies are almost preferred now while a corky body means a Pit, "must be Staffy or Am Bully."

I think that part of the reason the Pit Bull/Stafforshire/American Staffordshire/American Bully/Ghetto Bully... (and whatever other kind of bully there is out there now that I'm not aware of) debate is so convoluted and difficult to define is that most people don't understand that the structure of the Pit Bulls of the past was determined by competition.

The structure of the Pit Bull was a matter of form following function.

The pit bull build was a product of natural selection, not selective breeding. The characteristics of a pit's body that proved strongest and most durable -- in combination with a shape that could sustain and endure over long battles -- were the traits that were passed along because the gene pool was only filled with winners. Curs, regardless of their shape, were culled or given away to families as pets.

Today, people determine the "ideal proportions of the physical traits of Pit Bulls," not competition. If it is competition determining the ideal proportions, it's another kind such as weight pull or sprinting.

Most of the time however, it's just whatever body type looks cool. A huge portion of today's breeding stock -- those Pit Bulls that are highly sought after, whose owners charge exorbitant stud fees -- wouldn't even be considered for breeding stock in the past.

Am Bullies for example, with their English Bulldog bodies, would disappear in a single generation if competition was the requisite for breeding stock because their bodies would fail them even if they were unusually game.

The point is, no one would have judged your Pit Bull by it's physical qualities in the past -- when Pit Bulls were Pit Bulls -- which makes it difficult to understand why people hammer on one another about whose dog is a Pit and whose isn't.

Last edited by hotchkiss; 11-23-2012 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 11-23-2012, 02:27 PM   #2 (permalink)
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its not illegal to breed for game... its illegal to have game dogs just for fighting and gambling .. the combined racket...

If the pedigree is true to the dog.. you can tell a lot.. That is the DNA map so to speak. dogs, horses, people, we all have 256 ancestors in 7 gen.. The variable DNA traits that can come from that are as vast as the pedigree or as tight as the pedigree.

You don't breed for papers .. you breed for the dog.. HOWEVER an honest dog that is well papered should be without saying an excellent working dog and game as hell. Without game you dont' have an APBT or a bulldog you have cur which are in the hound group FUNCTION is everything as well as the condition of the mind.


Look at colby dogs 100 yrs ago, look at them today...... Look at Patrick dogs or Hammond dogs or Boudreaux dogs.. You'll see they all have a set of traits locked into their family of dogs.


A pedigree is only as honest as the man or woman holding it....
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:08 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
its not illegal to breed for game... its illegal to have game dogs just for fighting and gambling .. the combined racket...

If the pedigree is true to the dog.. you can tell a lot.. That is the DNA map so to speak. dogs, horses, people, we all have 256 ancestors in 7 gen.. The variable DNA traits that can come from that are as vast as the pedigree or as tight as the pedigree.

You don't breed for papers .. you breed for the dog.. HOWEVER an honest dog that is well papered should be without saying an excellent working dog and game as hell. Without game you dont' have an APBT or a bulldog you have cur which are in the hound group FUNCTION is everything as well as the condition of the mind.


Look at colby dogs 100 yrs ago, look at them today...... Look at Patrick dogs or Hammond dogs or Boudreaux dogs.. You'll see they all have a set of traits locked into their family of dogs.


A pedigree is only as honest as the man or woman holding it....
i was about to say... when did it become illegal??
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:35 PM   #4 (permalink)
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It is illegal to test for game but you're right about indirectly illegal to breed for it...in this country!
And it's only been that way since '76 not 100 years. Even then they were referred to as "dogs" not "pitbulls" like they are today. It really does make you wonder what the future holds
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:18 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Matching isn't illegal everywhere though. And some people in the US would say that hunting (hog, bear, etc.) would be testing the game of the dogs. And that's not illegal here.


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Old 11-23-2012, 07:53 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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It is illegal in the US to test for gameness. So therefore legally speaking you can not truly breed for it either. And there is only ONE way to test for true gameness []. You can only test for drive and maybe bravery with the things listed above. But dont kid yourself, the APBT is being bred true in many places, (so I've been told).
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:46 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Lol APBT are not now nor were they ever bred for looks. If they're breeding for looks then they're not breeding APBTs They have always been and still are a working breed.
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:04 PM   #8 (permalink)
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don't know, but...

I have a 45 pound dog that can whip any G.S. I know. Have a bigger dog that I'd pit against any modern day Akita I've seen...

But, I'm not willing to go so far as to say that I'd pit one of my house pets against a Grand Champion from the 1930's.

Come on now, even my raw fed, exercised daily, papered dogs leave something to be desired.

I've spent some money, but I wasn't naive enough to think I was paying for game.

If they can whip the neighbor's dog that's 50 pounds heavier, I'll yell, "I have a Pit Bull!"

But it's probably far from true.

All that aside, what a pain in the ass it is to walk my modern day pit. What a crazy pair of fuckers they are... maybe they're a touch game... unless they run into something real.
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:08 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Plenty of APBT people still breed dogs that are competing in sports and collecting plenty of titles rather than just focusing on looks.


Aaaand the Pit Bull's body isn't a product of natural selection. That would imply human's took no part in it, it doesn't matter what makes the dogs worthy of breeding, the human is still the one making/allowing the pairings. And not all curs were culled (as not were all manbiters) as breeding's more complex then that. Some would breed a cur that would near perfect structure, temperament, to dog of not so great structure but one of game. (one that never quit no matter what abuse they took from whatever they were fighting)
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:31 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Well

That might be a fair comment. It was humans selecting which dogs did and didn't breed.

Still, though I've not thought it out to this extent, it was a dog's game -- heart -- that determined whether or not the bloodline continued.

Structure wasn't a primary attribute people thought about, game was. Breeders bred for heart.

Today, people breed pits for structure.

Not sure I'm arguing with you as much as I'm trying to reiterate my point.
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:34 PM   #11 (permalink)
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hotchkiss what line of dogs you got? do you have their online ped or their parents registered name? Plenty of real dogs proven themselves outside the country come on now.
phillipines, japan, indonesia, mongolia, russia, czech, turkey, middle east, etc.. they have televised events cajun rules ...
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:10 AM   #12 (permalink)
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not sure what you're asking

I don't live in the States. Where I live, about 25% of the dog owning population owns pits.

Like I said earlier, pits shouldn't be a product of human selection bred for structure. They weren't historically. Pits were bred for game.

White bodies and blue eyes, dappled noses, corkey bodies, hare feet... none of those qualities were considered when someone evaluated a pit, until recently In the past, and in some places, pits were -- and are -- judged on heart.

The irony being that my pits are pets. They've never been chained, they've been caught sleeping on our bed, they spend half their time on their backs begging to be petted. No idea if they have any heart.

But, more than anyone else knows about their "Colby dog," I know where they're from, I know their lines.

And let me tell you, I know no more about their potential than anyone else knows about the potential of their dogs.
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:41 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Most of what you think you can teach has already been said. If it can be said; it has been said; bold statements, nothing said yet I and most of we don't know or couldn't show you direction.. still never answered my questions.. There are several mexican, czech, indonesian, etc.. dogs that are not in the states and still have a pedigree that can be displayed.

You know colby dogs, great.. gives you some basis. What do you feed?

my dog is belly mate and hammonds pick of this litter :ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [403065] :: DONALD'S KRY BABBI

My retired stud dog is :ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [129856] :: J.B.'S BOZZ HOG

both dogs at different times and different years tamed a wild pissed off moose a feit I've yet to see any other dog do besides a KBD/Laika and not get killed. both into bear and multiple bouts with coyotes.. the later two not so tough a good cur could do it but the moose, LOL only a good bulldog is going to grab it and wear it down by the nose.

Their diet is: beef, lamb, fish,elk, bear, coyote along with greens, rice, potatoes, grains..

I know what your hinting at and I too keep and breed for old world bulldogs..
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Old 11-24-2012, 12:49 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Lol APBT are not now nor were they ever bred for looks. If they're breeding for looks then they're not breeding APBTs They have always been and still are a working breed.
Working...fighting...everyone has their own interpretation. I prefer fighting breed. American Working Bull Terrier? Doesn't sound right to me LOL. The [] = Pit = fighting. But I suppose they could be considered both these days. Not arguing with you, just throwing out my two cents
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Old 11-24-2012, 01:46 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Go with Heinzl.. All purpose all American breed because that is what the APBT is supposed to be.. that ironically also why its the best [] dog around the world. The original bulldog was throwin into the [] and forever dubbed "pit bull".. Just like the best of our American boxers our fighting dogs are working class

The APBT should be in the working class.. They also should adhere to ADBA standards..
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