tips for starting a bandogge program - Page 2

**Firehazard** · 02-09-2013, 08:31 PM

Cane corso, Presa (various strains), Douge DeBourdeaux, Bullmastiff, Boerboel, Tosa, Fila, etc... all are bandogs.. Bandog simply is working mastiff.. The original formats of all those dogs listed were so vicious they had to be bound by chain; in origin.

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[/IMG] 1890s Dogue De Bourdeaux last of the original strain before it was tainted with Bullmastiff (which came from early DDB origin) to go back into it in hopes of saving the breed.

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[/IMG] An origin dogue throwback DDB, early import much like what was used in the whopper line. Which is why so many OFRN with whopper and Whopper look similar to this dog when bred correctly just on different size scales.

THis USED to be the Neopolitan Mastiff...
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http://www.chimerakennels.com/dogspupsforsale.htm

http://mealerspitbullfarm.com/index.html
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^^^^^^^^^^ Thats what you need to start with and you need to have work aka purpose for the breed... IF You just wanna GIANT house dog... look for one of the current Dogue De Bourdeaux or English Mastiff.. they both are no where near the energy output of a genuine bandog.

KMdogs · 02-10-2013, 04:24 AM

The simple fact you ask such questions is great however shows you have years to go before you hold the proper knowledge to even consider breeding anything, let alone an animal and program of which can turn into wash quicker than a blink of the eye..

When you combine gameness, guardian and high amounts of prey, sophistication, harder animals mentally and physically.. Genetics is your savior as without the knowledge of not only your foundation roots, foundation themselves and your clear visions, you will end up with cold dogs, unfit to be worked, unsound mind or body, etc.. The margin of error compared to that of success is paper thin.

Another question you must ask is what do you see with this vision that doesn't already exist? Very rarely does what you seek not already out there and it has ALL been done before thus you must learn from what has been done.. If it ain't there today you have to break down, genetically, what went wrong.. Which again, takes years to fully comprehend and learn what to look for so that you do not breed yourself back into the same corner of which killed off the animal previously.

Another thing is that as a breeder you must breed for yourself, not for someone else, thus you have to have proper financial stability, available funds, ability to use ALL stock off your yard.. It is a job of which few really have the full access and time for.

You will also notice much as FH has already pointed out, working stock Mastiffs AKA Bandogs mimic in appearance and mind that of Game Dogs, Bulldogs... APBTs.. GEMS of past and present, a reason for this as genetically cross and intertwine far more than the common person may truly realize.

Old English Dogge, rooted directly towards Danish Hound, War Mastiffs, modern wash that is of Great Danes.. One of the oldest of genetic foundations..

War Mastiff of Neo..

Direct lack of fear regardless of weapon used, to the point sourced mind of gameness.. Tested, trialed and proven by man over centuries.. The ability to take down what needs to be, threat is no object.

Notice the near hound like structure..

Bulldog in traits, Mastiff by structure.. Put in basic

Old as you get of documents, what do you see? Notice the length of legs, depth of chest.. Wind, ability to hit long range targets with less ground noise making subjects unaware until contact.. Pure, instinctive.

Companionship with eyes and ears always on sight and targeting threats beyond that what a human may detect.. Man or animal, eager.

Again we go back to that of Bulldog.. A reason.

KMdogs · 02-10-2013, 04:34 AM

Dogo Argentino.. Bandog program of perfection.. Traditional stock, highest end catch dog there is.. Surpassing? Nothing.. Equal to? High end Bulldogs and very few programs of traditional stock Bandogs..

Two of the most predominant in that of creation? Game Dogs and NOT the wash of Danes that is commonly referred to, heavy crossing of DBH (danish boarhound pre-dane) and English Dogge (foundation of DBH... Bandog). OF which genetically near same to identical selection of history with similar usage crossing over and over

KMdogs · 02-10-2013, 04:40 AM

Go back through the history books.. ALL established Bandog "lines" go back to the same lineage..

Many of these common yards of presas, corsos, etc.. WASH with TOO large of mass being carried.. As the saying goes with dogs, small get smaller large get larger..

Stan heres one for you.

**Firehazard** · 02-10-2013, 03:01 PM

I had a lot of those old pics,, thank ya KM!! I appreciate those I didn't.. I like that last shot as well.. Great aspects of genetic lineage on the other side of the spectrum. Its sad that most don't realize the small pit bulldog stock is from the aluant which is from the fighting dog of gaul a direct import of and bred down from.. as is the Danish hound originally from the same stock as the fighting dog of gaul whis were also the original Neo of the same stock as the Fighting dog of Gaul.. for years dogs were exported from Gaul(FRANCE) to go back into roman and germanic dogs... they soon evolved they're own sub strains and became founding strains for sub strains of their own..

GREAT INFO KM.. AWESOME PICS and gathering of history!

KMdogs · 02-11-2013, 01:42 AM

All Bulldogs or Bandogs until otherwise proven.. The value of this is seen more and more through those willing.

You take your Bulldogs and with very few exceptions such as the Ovcharka your Bandogs, you can trace them all back in relative short time periods back to the same Game Dogs and/or Bullbaiters and/or Gaul Dog.. Much before this it can start to get tricky and blurry, not documented as post Gaul thus beyond just simply guess work to the puzzles.

Much selectively bred same strains/substrains to develop own functions... Thus links back to function defines.

**Firehazard** · 02-11-2013, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMdogs

All Bulldogs or Bandogs until otherwise proven.. The value of this is seen more and more through those willing.

You take your Bulldogs and with very few exceptions such as the Ovcharka your Bandogs, you can trace them all back in relative short time periods back to the same Game Dogs and/or Bullbaiters and/or Gaul Dog.. Much before this it can start to get tricky and blurry, not documented as post Gaul thus beyond just simply guess work to the puzzles.

Much selectively bred same strains/substrains to develop own functions... Thus links back to function defines.

Because they are all wolfdogs before that... there are large war and protection type wolf dogs and small endurance type wolf dogs .. intelligent aloof type herding wolfdogs.. this was the F1 and F2 generations of wolf dogs..

KMdogs · 02-11-2013, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firehazard

Because they are all wolfdogs before that... there are large war and protection type wolf dogs and small endurance type wolf dogs .. intelligent aloof type herding wolfdogs.. this was the F1 and F2 generations of wolf dogs..

When you were involved with Wolves did you experiment with selective breeding without crossing into your domestic? What was the outcome?

That would be a REAL treat to see on a genetic basis taking Wolves down in size or up, slowly changing mentality for function of that of domesticated strains/sub.

**Firehazard** · 02-11-2013, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMdogs

When you were involved with Wolves did you experiment with selective breeding without crossing into your domestic? What was the outcome?

That would be a REAL treat to see on a genetic basis taking Wolves down in size or up, slowly changing mentality for function of that of domesticated strains/sub.

I had the opportunity of getting the wolves from homes who thought they wanted to do such things: WOLFX: GSD, Husky, Malemute, APBT, CHOW, and sled dogs that had been brought down south but got loose and labled wolf dogs, I had two sled dogs from Alaska. The best cross with WOLF was the CHOW.. I seen the dad and the mom was 50% alaskan timberwolf 50% private family of sled dog in AK founded primarily in wolf. Because I left for Hawaii and left her in care with my uncle, he let her get knocked up by his neighbors 85lbs Chow(they dont come like that very often anymore) .. the outcome was a laika type bear dog. Twins.. girls.. Phenominal.. This made sense because the CHOW is older than any other domestic breed of dog... and is bred directly off the wolf to look like a bear.. IT was a sled dog, hunting dog, and yes food.. but hey APBTs are food over there they dont take sides good working dogs mean great muscle which of course is meat. I kept one and she quickly became alpha of 4 wolfdogs and 2 wolves. I had one Artic Tundra wolf crossed with alaskan sled dog for the white dominance, and I had a 165lbs alaskan timber wolf, when I finally got Hooch caught the bulldog fever and placed all those except the chow wolf mut.

Yep... Bulldog or Bandog until otherwise proven..............

KMdogs · 02-11-2013, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firehazard

I had the opportunity of getting the wolves from homes who thought they wanted to do such things: WOLFX: GSD, Husky, Malemute, APBT, CHOW, and sled dogs that had been brought down south but got loose and labled wolf dogs, I had two sled dogs from Alaska. The best cross with WOLF was the CHOW.. I seen the dad and the mom was 50% alaskan timberwolf 50% private family of sled dog in AK founded primarily in wolf. Because I left for Hawaii and left her in care with my uncle, he let her get knocked up by his neighbors 85lbs Chow(they dont come like that very often anymore) .. the outcome was a laika type bear dog. Twins.. girls.. Phenominal.. This made sense because the CHOW is older than any other domestic breed of dog... and is bred directly off the wolf to look like a bear.. IT was a sled dog, hunting dog, and yes food.. but hey APBTs are food over there they dont take sides good working dogs mean great muscle which of course is meat. I kept one and she quickly became alpha of 4 wolfdogs and 2 wolves. I had one Artic Tundra wolf crossed with alaskan sled dog for the white dominance, and I had a 165lbs alaskan timber wolf, when I finally got Hooch caught the bulldog fever and placed all those except the chow wolf mut.

Yep... Bulldog or Bandog until otherwise proven..............

Got to spread the rep around some however excellent post! I remember a many of chow - wolf discussions we've had.

The most successful of versatile Bandogs is that of Bulldog lineage which is the most basic of foundation.

Good

in here for those in need of information or enlightenment.

**Firehazard** · 02-11-2013, 05:50 PM

its all about the foundation...

KMdogs · 02-11-2013, 05:51 PM

Traditional Tosas are worth mentioning here..

As well as a dog of which is a representation of when you play with genetics you play with fire.. CFD or pre Dogo if you will..

CFD was a strive to take a genetic down wind, turn into the superior Bandog by creating old world antics with Bulldog genetics. Many accounts documented of gentlemen whom ran across these animals to discover brute power and raw intention of destruction. Man. Dog. Animal. A fight was a fight to them.

Unfortunately, this was also the problem as genetics were all in place however the knowledge by hand, in order to preserve you must have the ability to set forth a consistent stability, otherwise it turns back in your face and when it does it isn't going to be something you'll forget.

**Firehazard** · 02-11-2013, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMdogs

Traditional Tosas are worth mentioning here..

As well as a dog of which is a representation of when you play with genetics you play with fire.. CFD or pre Dogo if you will..

CFD was a strive to take a genetic down wind, turn into the superior Bandog by creating old world antics with Bulldog genetics. Many accounts documented of gentlemen whom ran across these animals to discover brute power and raw intention of destruction. Man. Dog. Animal. A fight was a fight to them.

Unfortunately, this was also the problem as genetics were all in place however the knowledge by hand, in order to preserve you must have the ability to set forth a consistent stability, otherwise it turns back in your face and when it does it isn't going to be something you'll forget.

Indeed Tosas are probably the best [] bandog which is why it reigns supreme in dogs 100lbs and over.. which allow NO apbt combatants. Great dogs..

Those CFD and some authentic Dogo stock today is very near the Game Keepers Night dog.. often white so they could see them at night.. Not by design but sure enough a spoof along the way. Boers being the other end of that spectrum.. Authentic working boers outta S.Africa are essentially the BULLMASTIFF in all original form.. not being SHOWBRED...

KMdogs · 02-11-2013, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firehazard

Indeed Tosas are probably the best [] bandog which is why it reigns supreme in dogs 100lbs and over.. which allow NO apbt combatants. Great dogs..

Those CFD and some authentic Dogo stock today is very near the Game Keepers Night dog.. often white so they could see them at night.. Not by design but sure enough a spoof along the way. Boers being the other end of that spectrum.. Authentic working boers outta S.Africa are essentially the BULLMASTIFF in all original form.. not being SHOWBRED...

Problem is when you don't have the ability to keep or provide handlers that are in need, shit back fires and the dog goes extinct as it stands.

Tosas are great guardians as well as matching Mastiffs however their size hinders in real world application. If they grab you sheer size and strength alone will bring you down, ain't escaping that

however in terms of function, unless you stumble upon a very old yard it is difficult to find one in which can be as versatile physically as they are mentally. Of course that goes with just about any breed, you have your wash and then your "true to form" stock.

White is traditional however i have always stirred clear, black, buckskin, brindle.. The ideal coat colors for function, blend well at night or day with surroundings and far more superior in ability to accomplish without being seen.

**Firehazard** · 02-11-2013, 07:47 PM

can't give rep.. last sentence is where I stand as well.. I like a cowdog now and then but Buckskin and brindle are what I stick with just as it turns out. Havent had a black dog without brindled coat or blk and tan..