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Old 02-17-2013, 08:45 PM   #181 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ames View Post
There is no connection genetically between behavior and appearance. All dogs need to be judged on their behavior not appearance. A dog afraid of thunder or one that barks all day when you leave isn't linked to what color his toe nails are or what kind of fur they have. It's a behavior. One that a trainer can help correct or elevate depending in WHAT behavior they have. Good bad or otherwise. why would it any different in APBT than any other breed of dog? I'm not buying the stories sorry. I need proof of these opinions based in fact not folklore.

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It could be argued that physical traits and behaviors are linked though, since if you think about it, isn't that how we most of the various dog breeds we have today? At least for working breeds (or what was once a working breed before dog shows ruined them). Various dogs with desired working abilities were selected and bred based on desired physical and mental capabilities - not looks alone. Looks in many cases would have been secondary, however, if you breed enough dogs with similar physical abilities for a specific function then there will begin to be some consistency as far as physical appearance because you're whittling down the genetic pool from which you choose your breeding stock.

Those physical traits (in genetics they are referred to as phenotypes) that arise from this selective breeding will ultimately stabilize and give you the dog breeds we know of today. There would and could be the rare event of genetic mutation which could cause a single specimen to display traits which are outside the norm, however the more likely cause of a sudden appearance of a different trait or color in dog breeds would be the addition of blood from an outside genetic pool.

If the appearance of a blue dog was in fact as a result of an outcross instead of a genetic mutation then it would seem fathomable that said blue dog would possibly carry with it traits uncharacteristic of an APBT (lacking gameness). Even if the appearance of blue dogs was due to a genetic mutation, DNA is funny in the sense that one allele or gene can affect more than one trait. This is called Pleiotropy. In that sense, it is entirely possible that behavior and physical appearance can be linked.
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Old 02-17-2013, 09:08 PM   #182 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Carriana View Post
It could be argued that physical traits and behaviors are linked though, since if you think about it, isn't that how we most of the various dog breeds we have today? At least for working breeds (or what was once a working breed before dog shows ruined them). Various dogs with desired working abilities were selected and bred based on desired physical and mental capabilities - not looks alone. Looks in many cases would have been secondary, however, if you breed enough dogs with similar physical abilities for a specific function then there will begin to be some consistency as far as physical appearance because you're whittling down the genetic pool from which you choose your breeding stock.

Those physical traits (in genetics they are referred to as phenotypes) that arise from this selective breeding will ultimately stabilize and give you the dog breeds we know of today. There would and could be the rare event of genetic mutation which could cause a single specimen to display traits which are outside the norm, however the more likely cause of a sudden appearance of a different trait or color in dog breeds would be the addition of blood from an outside genetic pool.

If the appearance of a blue dog was in fact as a result of an outcross instead of a genetic mutation then it would seem fathomable that said blue dog would possibly carry with it traits uncharacteristic of an APBT (lacking gameness). Even if the appearance of blue dogs was due to a genetic mutation, DNA is funny in the sense that one allele or gene can affect more than one trait. This is called Pleiotropy. In that sense, it is entirely possible that behavior and physical appearance can be linked.
.. I quit speaking scientific terms long ago, broke it down to crayon. I should start using proper terminology more. GREAT POST!
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Old 02-17-2013, 09:17 PM   #183 (permalink)
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your talking that white dog built on Searcys Jeff? with shot of centipede? Look at the 7 and you'll see guess who.. Colby.. ALOT.. just a side note I wanted to point out ... People knew he was HOT but that first time out left an impression for most. Centipede though red on red was a similar HOT dog.. Like I said as we all know color did not matter when your talking game, HOWEVER they all picked dogs and kept dogs on color and the primary lines show this to be true.

I know what your saying, because you can find more than one solid white pit dog.. however.. it is a saying that developed for good reason. NO one wants a man biting fighting dog. .. well almost no one.. heheheh
So Colby is responsible for these "white" anomolies? There is also some Corcoran in there as well...good old irish. Also, wasn't Feeley's Jim white as well, IIRC?
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Old 02-17-2013, 09:47 PM   #184 (permalink)
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So Colby is responsible for these "white" anomolies? There is also some Corcoran in there as well...good old irish. Also, wasn't Feeley's Jim white as well, IIRC?
Like I said in those other topics we speak here of: those guys pulled the Colby and Feeley together down from old early stock, and to double up on them by pulling the inbred lines both down from the same stuff back to each other.. Paddy dogs.. There were many solid white bulldogs in the early days and that was probably do to a large quanity of white dogs used in the field of when they were bulldogs by chore and bloodline of dog.

Colby, and Feeley, together is some heavy Paddy and early bulldog dna right up front and pushing old stuff right on out.. so yeh.. by putting them all together you get what you got.. take one piece out and it aint the same critter.

THUS: per blue being not trusted genetically it is WEAK among bulldog dogmen, I believe it relates to merle .. look at the merle conversation which comes from a dilute such as blue. Solid white dogs not trusted was always in the term of human aggression, a white dog that was HOT.. was usually an all around go getter. I also know they breed deaf and blind dogs if they double up on that white gene more often than any other color.. I would say that Hammonds Rufus is proof that the genetic mutation red out of black black (double back to mother) produced deaf.. so was law dog deaf.. Red ale of alligator strain carries deaf gene.. I love the strain and Know exactly what your saying StFrancis.. Just cause it dont work for some doesnt mean it doesnt work let alone work for others.. However in game and color and genetics.. the proof is in the pudding.. every color got its chance..
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:55 PM   #185 (permalink)
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I hear what you're saying Stan about the English (Pilot and Paddy) and Old Family(Irish) bond. So let's give credit to those before Colby, etc. The "Old" families from Cork and Derry, Ireland, the Murphy strain from Ireland, and those from Waterford, Killkinney, and Galt, Ireland. And in England, those from Wolver Hampton (Henry's Richmond...another white pit dog). Some of Richmond's ancestors in England were Birmingham's Jack, Prisoner, White Demon, and Donnington's Duke. Also Napoleon Jack was another import from England. In addition, the Scotts also lent a hand in the formation of the APBT via the Blue Paul crossings with the English and Irish dogs. The pit dog named Spring was an early import from Glasgow, Scotland which was the center of Blue Paul activity. Power's Violet (believed to be blue in color and possibly a Blue Paul) was another early Scottish import. All shared a part in what we have today.
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:48 PM   #186 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Carriana View Post
It could be argued that physical traits and behaviors are linked though, since if you think about it, isn't that how we most of the various dog breeds we have today? At least for working breeds (or what was once a working breed before dog shows ruined them). Various dogs with desired working abilities were selected and bred based on desired physical and mental capabilities - not looks alone. Looks in many cases would have been secondary, however, if you breed enough dogs with similar physical abilities for a specific function then there will begin to be some consistency as far as physical appearance because you're whittling down the genetic pool from which you choose your breeding stock.

Those physical traits (in genetics they are referred to as phenotypes) that arise from this selective breeding will ultimately stabilize and give you the dog breeds we know of today. There would and could be the rare event of genetic mutation which could cause a single specimen to display traits which are outside the norm, however the more likely cause of a sudden appearance of a different trait or color in dog breeds would be the addition of blood from an outside genetic pool.

If the appearance of a blue dog was in fact as a result of an outcross instead of a genetic mutation then it would seem fathomable that said blue dog would possibly carry with it traits uncharacteristic of an APBT (lacking gameness). Even if the appearance of blue dogs was due to a genetic mutation, DNA is funny in the sense that one allele or gene can affect more than one trait. This is called Pleiotropy. In that sense, it is entirely possible that behavior and physical appearance can be linked.

Excellent post!! I have not read all the comments so sorry if this is way out of place lol! I do feel there was a reason they culled them, and that it was not just for color thing. I do believe they were at one point matched and the blue dogs just were not as game...and of course the skin issues...they just were not what they were needing.

I don't think the dogmen discriminated against color and that they *did* give them a chance just like any other one of their dogs. It does not make sense why they would just decide randomly for no reason to cull dogs that were blue...there was a reason.

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Old 02-18-2013, 01:57 AM   #187 (permalink)
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Excellent post!! I have not read all the comments so sorry if this is way out of place lol! I do feel there was a reason they culled them, and that it was not just for color thing. I do believe they were at one point matched and the blue dogs just were not as game...and of course the skin issues...they just were not what they were needing.

I don't think the dogmen discriminated against color and that they *did* give them a chance just like any other one of their dogs. It does not make sense why they would just decide randomly for no reason to cull dogs that were blue...there was a reason.
Another post brought to you by GP Crayola.. Lingo can open minds occasionally glad to see a few doin' their own research coming to the truth without distortion or going in with preset mind of its all wrong from the start.
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:16 AM   #188 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ames View Post
We all say behavior of a game dog is something it's born with. Something it that it never has to be trained. It can be nurtured and helped along but it's a born with trait. Not all dogs in a litter might get that trait. Maybe to some degree, but not every dog. I know we agree on on that, for the most part It's a behavior of a dog. It's a trait. There is no connection genetically between behavior and appearance. All dogs need to be judged on their behavior not appearance. A dog afraid of thunder or one that barks all day when you leave isn't linked to what color his toe nails are or what kind of fur they have. It's a behavior. One that a trainer can help correct or elevate depending in WHAT behavior they have. Good bad or otherwise. why would it any different in APBT than any other breed of dog? I'm not buying the stories sorry. I need proof of these opinions based in fact not folklore.
This is what i call "new age" thinking.. Appearance doesn't "typically" amount to much unless we are looking at structure weakness or strengths, however as i stated in a previous post ALL genes that are the genetic make up of an animal work as one to create.. Thus nothing works as individual genetic material..

Think of it this way, you have a car engine. You have your individual parts, pistons, cams, header, intake, valves, clutch mechanisms, etc.. None of these parts are more significant than the other as all intertwine to allow the motor to start, run and perform. IF lets say one of these fail, for simplicity reasons lets say you do an experiment and cut off your intakes ability to send air to the engine. Try and ignite and what happens? You are not just changing one part of the engine you are creating a spiral of problems which in the end causes the engine to not start. (best way i can put it so anyone who knows about cars..lets not complicate this )

SO that said, genetics works similarly. You change one thing, coat color, eyes, mutation in ears, leg, tail, etc.. What you see isn't all that it effects.. Even if the dog can still function and still appears in order, i.e no problematic areas to speak of.. Trainable, even temperament, etc.. This does not mean you have altered other genes that is not visible or perhaps not known without testing specific areas to see out come.
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:56 AM   #189 (permalink)
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Good point however.. GENETICALLY there is plenty to link genetic health or sound mentality with skin color ... pick a mammal
Ok just to clarify you mean like sickle cell being more hereditary in African americans, and thins like that? Because that's a disease not a trait so I don't know how they compare? What am I missing? that is if the race hasn't been infiltrated with other races. Same with dogs but they are even more complex since there are more races. So I COULD see the argument blue dogs have been infiltrated with another breeds (amstaff) genes which might not contain the trait of gaminess (or is it game?). Since its 50/50.


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Old 02-18-2013, 03:02 AM   #190 (permalink)
 

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The genes that cause blue have been linked to canine follicular dysplasia, white has been linked to deafness, merle etc. etc. etc.....many colors or when bred for color only can be linked to genetic abnormalities. Not enough genetic diversity going on once you focus on color.
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:08 AM   #191 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Carriana View Post
It could be argued that physical traits and behaviors are linked though, since if you think about it, isn't that how we most of the various dog breeds we have today? At least for working breeds (or what was once a working breed before dog shows ruined them). Various dogs with desired working abilities were selected and bred based on desired physical and mental capabilities - not looks alone. Looks in many cases would have been secondary, however, if you breed enough dogs with similar physical abilities for a specific function then there will begin to be some consistency as far as physical appearance because you're whittling down the genetic pool from which you choose your breeding stock.

Those physical traits (in genetics they are referred to as phenotypes) that arise from this selective breeding will ultimately stabilize and give you the dog breeds we know of today. There would and could be the rare event of genetic mutation which could cause a single specimen to display traits which are outside the norm, however the more likely cause of a sudden appearance of a different trait or color in dog breeds would be the addition of blood from an outside genetic pool.

If the appearance of a blue dog was in fact as a result of an outcross instead of a genetic mutation then it would seem fathomable that said blue dog would possibly carry with it traits uncharacteristic of an APBT (lacking gameness). Even if the appearance of blue dogs was due to a genetic mutation, DNA is funny in the sense that one allele or gene can affect more than one trait. This is called Pleiotropy. In that sense, it is entirely possible that behavior and physical appearance can be linked.
Absolutely!! But my point is appearance and behavior are different genes. You can have them repeat and match up time and time again. But they are not connected. It's not about a color it's about behavior. Just like people say you can throw a different color in a litter but that dog might still be game. Appearance and behavior are different genes.


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Old 02-18-2013, 03:12 AM   #192 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KMdogs View Post
This is what i call "new age" thinking.. Appearance doesn't "typically" amount to much unless we are looking at structure weakness or strengths, however as i stated in a previous post ALL genes that are the genetic make up of an animal work as one to create.. Thus nothing works as individual genetic material..

Think of it this way, you have a car engine. You have your individual parts, pistons, cams, header, intake, valves, clutch mechanisms, etc.. None of these parts are more significant than the other as all intertwine to allow the motor to start, run and perform. IF lets say one of these fail, for simplicity reasons lets say you do an experiment and cut off your intakes ability to send air to the engine. Try and ignite and what happens? You are not just changing one part of the engine you are creating a spiral of problems which in the end causes the engine to not start. (best way i can put it so anyone who knows about cars..lets not complicate this )

SO that said, genetics works similarly. You change one thing, coat color, eyes, mutation in ears, leg, tail, etc.. What you see isn't all that it effects.. Even if the dog can still function and still appears in order, i.e no problematic areas to speak of.. Trainable, even temperament, etc.. This does not mean you have altered other genes that is not visible or perhaps not known without testing specific areas to see out come.
Ok I need to read this again because I don't get the comparison. What I look at it is the parents are wags deck of cards and when you shuffle the cards they can appear in any order. Still doesn't mean looks and behaviors are tied. You replace the part with another maker and the part still works even of its not the same brand, right? As long as its piston who cares what color the Piston is?


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Old 02-18-2013, 03:19 AM   #193 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ames View Post
Ok just to clarify you mean like sickle cell being more hereditary in African americans, and thins like that? Because that's a disease not a trait so I don't know how they compare? What am I missing? that is if the race hasn't been infiltrated with other races. Same with dogs but they are even more complex since there are more races. So I COULD see the argument blue dogs have been infiltrated with another breeds (amstaff) genes which might not contain the trait of gaminess (or is it game?). Since its 50/50.


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Sickle cell is a disease, yes, but it's a genetic disease. It's not something you can contract. It's hereditary and so it is no different than inheriting eye color or skin color.

Slightly off topic, the reason sickle cell is more common people of African descent is that though it can cause illness and result in a shorter life span it also carries with it an immunity to malaria. So the reason the disease has not been eliminated completely through natural selection is because it does have a beneficial side effect.
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:27 AM   #194 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carriana View Post
Sickle cell is a disease, yes, but it's a genetic disease. It's not something you can contract. It's hereditary and so it is no different than inheriting eye color or skin color.

Slightly off topic, the reason sickle cell is more common people of African descent is that though it can cause illness and result in a shorter life span it also carries with it an immunity to malaria. So the reason the disease has not been eliminated completely through natural selection is because it does have a beneficial side effect.
Agreed that's why I was confused by Stan's post what he was meaning. Thanks though didn't know the reason why it was just knew it is.
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:30 AM   #195 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by back2basics View Post
The genes that cause blue have been linked to canine follicular dysplasia, white has been linked to deafness, merle etc. etc. etc.....many colors or when bred for color only can be linked to genetic abnormalities. Not enough genetic diversity going on once you focus on color.
No doubt!! But still those are not behaviors. Deaf isn't a behavior. You can have "smart" deaf dogs and "dumb" deaf dogs. Agreed but blue dogs have been around just not being bred til recent times. That's when dog fighting is illegal so I'm talking about back in the day not they situation now with overbred blue dogs. Back in the day they were killed before ther behavior was developed or known.
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- Tom Junod

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― Maya Angelou


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