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ADBA/UKC Working dog; considered bully?

11K views 40 replies 12 participants last post by  gamer 
#1 · (Edited)


Diesel AKA "skinny"... 80lbs
100lb Pitbull.com

Proof that game bred dog lines straigten up scatter bred, badly bred, or mismanaged breedings.. Most of you know where I stand with whopper dogs, I think you also know that I stand firm that breeding a gamebred dog line to a pulling line or show line will only help the dogs lines. Well look at this guy..

Tell me what you think, show dog, bully, working dog, pulling dog? A lot of bully people like this dog, insisting that he is a bully; WHY? he's not a or of bully lines... Check out his lines at Pedigree. To me this is a working dog that just happens to be a pretty boy. You all are really into bullys and show dogs, thought ya'll could help out, what makes him a bully? I don't see it other than maybe "classic" bully conformation.
 
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#3 · (Edited)
King sire to Diesel.. King is all game dog,
some pics he looks almost like a scott type dog, however I know that King was a freaky big dog born from two 75lbs dogs, King is 95lbs, check the ped. Compare him to Hoaggie my 35lbs zebo dog.
Hoaggie at 25lbs 1.5yrs
Hoaggie at 35lbs 2.5yrs
King is very similar to Hoaggie, both have heavy Adams blood; just bred different.
If he was AM bulldog would this rednose come out looking as nice as he does with all the APBT qualities? I don't believe breeding an AM bulldog to a whopper dog would get you much except a bandogge.. Curious as to why most people think Diesel is bully..
 
#4 ·
Okay so I've been looking at all the bully pics on GPB.com and I have found only a couple of dogs that are classic bully that look anything like Diesel. Should I promote this dog to Bully people? I insist he isn't however he's real close. All I know is his lineage and his attitude; he is a baby doll of a powerhouse, I'm not keen on politics only on truth, so I need help from those of you who keep up with the politcs of it; Is this dog a classic bully? Should he attempt a title or two? If so would it be unethical to breed him to Bully's, and APBT's? I don't think so but again, I am a game dog follower and have not been into politics or show dogs.
 
#8 ·
Mayday was 58-65.5 pounds during his campaing. He was 75 lb off the chain weight and in person he was not that HUGE dog but rather heavy bone. The Camelot blood I see in that pedigree if its the same red dogs i know of theyb are bred to be low and super wide. And Whopper no matter how you look at it is not an APBT. ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [35886] :: EDDINGTON'S WANNABE AWHOPPER
Or atleast I would be hard pressed to believe it. These dogs here ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [153710] :: 454 TO TEASER BREEDING are in relation to yours, and you see they consider them bullies, and despite the Whopper blood they look like APBT. What you have is a nice dog, if he can get working titles and you can secure a good stock just be honest in wht your breeding and selling if thats what you want to do. I for one am looking into bullies to work them, as I think they have great potential as working dogs that would look great also.
 
#9 ·
Thanks, I already know all about whopper, they like many other "breeds"/ lines are still registered APBT despite the fact they are not. To me if they stay registered as APBTs then large gamedogs need to be bred to those big pullers to keep them sound. Thats how they retain their PB look is being selectively washed with game dogs, and heavily inbred. I too have seen camelot dogs back in 2000; and mayday as well as Tants Yellow, My dog Hooch has some of the same ancestory as Mayday/TantsYellow, very similar Hooch was 75lbs everyday could go as lean as 60-65. I appreciate honesty as well; I wanted to get this dog up to get some bully opinion. I don't consider whopper anything but whopper,(well I once said:"whopper and giants and mammoth could all be bred together to be the American Bull Mastiff but its already been done according to colby just without the whopper and we call it AMBullDog), but I am amazed they are invading the bully line as well... Like I said I am a trainer, this dog belongs to a friend of mine, who is well aware of the whopper and where I stand; As long as people are aware that the dog is half whopper despite being bred to a pulling line or a bully line. Can do, thats a given in my book.. Thanks again for the reassurance not into the bully game, I agree with you totally that they should be working dogs..
 
#11 ·
the sire looks like a American bull dog cross, I will have to google the Johnson in his background awefully close to Johnson bulls dogs :) So he is all game dog? Meaning what exactly his parents were game tested or just from game lines I see some way back but then you go far enough into a Am staff lines and you will see same names. I dont believe it at all will have to get back to you after some research
 
#13 · (Edited)
Yeah I don't know what I'm talking about, my dog Hooch's dam was Bingo she was also Crenshaw Gator who I had a chance of owning myself, killkenny kennels had some dogs of real close lines to Hooch as well as Hooch was sired by Jocko named for being trip bred Jocko with Tonka/Reboy outcross. The closest match/twin(not exactly in paperwork but in dog) to Hooch I have ever seen was Mayday and he was a 70lbs dog when I seen him, I sent him many buyers people out of NE Okla looking for a dog like Hooch all the way to ecuador. It was the old dog men that slapped me as a youngster for breeding my dog to the whopper dogs and big pullers,setting me straight, either sell the big dog to pullers or breed for game and game is small although big freak occur. Here is MAYDAY ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [560] :: SOUTHERN KENNEL'S MAYDAY as I seen him, and Lukane who you know the owner if you know Dave, LOL~ I don't throw current names around only facts; names of current dog men is just a sign of disrespect in my book as mums the word with game dogs unless they wrote a book or a blog or a spot in the journal, mention the dogs not the men, and both those dogs were 75lbs Alot of CH Yellow dogs are 75lbs and females aren't unlikely of pushing the 60lbs+

Don't Norrod and Castillo both claim OFRN??? different lines yes~ but they claim the same OFRN
http://www.anchorchainkennels.com/
http://ironlinekennels.com.futuresite.register.com/index.html
Norrods OFRN dogs are the sht the only reason I don't own one is cause I owned Jocko lines and now the only breedable dog on my yard now is my little 30lbs Zebo/Adams dog I used to cross out my heavy inbred Jocko dogs, it would be to tempting to fk up the OFRN purity out of curiousity of seeing the extremely seperated genetics of old school blood being thrown together.

JFYI to really understand canine behavior, you have to understand canine genetics~ stickin' to it ;) I wrongly assume peopel know what I know, as many of you seem to know alot; so I do not put it in crayon..

Once again personal irritations to the side; Just curious how this dog Diesel could be considered a bully...
I thought the same thing about the american bulldog and all the Johnson paperwork and what I found out was enough to piss off a world of people.. There are Colby dogs big 75lbs+ dogs registered Johnson APBT and Johnson AM BULLDOG~ ehh.. , proving colby right; that AMbulldogs come from inbreeding XL APBTS to get brutes.
Heres my personal favorite Jocko, it says no weight but he is clearly the size of mayday pictured at chain weight, just by comparing him to the men in the back. ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [392] :: CHAVIS' JOCKO (4XW) I believe in small game dogs and bred my Jocko stuff down to 35lbs (smaller than Jacksons CH Hank)then crossed it to Zebo/Adams dog.. Had all the pups fixed and retired as I recreated the long legged bulldog http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/26690-my-recreation-barenbiter-bearbiter-bullbiter-straight-game-dogs.htmlout of straight american game dogs, but I was able to do that because I don't know what I am doing.

OH,, and heres your BIG JOHN at 75lbs chainweight
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [15905] :: CH WACCAMAW'S BIG JOHN (3XW)

THat would mean 62lbs minimum =)) pit weight still a big dog~
 
#14 · (Edited)
Yeah I don't know what I'm talking about, my dog Hooch's dam was Bingo she was also Crenshaw Gator who I had a chance of owning myself, killkenny kennels had some dogs of real close lines to Hooch as well as Hooch was sired by Jocko named for being trip bred Jocko with Tonka/Reboy outcross. The closest match/twin(not exactly in paperwork but in dog) to Hooch I have ever seen was Mayday and he was a 70lbs dog when I seen him, I sent him many buyers people out of NE Okla looking for a dog like Hooch all the way to ecuador. It was the old dog men that slapped me as a youngster for breeding my dog to the whopper dogs and big pullers,setting me straight, either sell the big dog to pullers or breed for game and game is small although big freak occur. Here is MAYDAY ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [560] :: SOUTHERN KENNEL'S MAYDAY as I seen him, and Lukane who you know the owner if you know Dave, LOL~ I don't throw current names around only facts; names of current dog men is just a sign of disrespect in my book as mums the word with game dogs unless they wrote a book or a blog or a spot in the journal, mention the dogs not the men, and both those dogs were 75lbs Alot of CH Yellow dogs are 75lbs and females aren't unlikely of pushing the 60lbs+

Don't Norrod and Castillo both claim OFRN??? different lines yes~ but they claim the same OFRN
anchor chain kennels
IRONLINE KENNELS HOME OF THE WORLD FAMOUS NORROD RED DEVIL STRAIN SINCE 1969
Norrods OFRN dogs are the sht the only reason I don't own one is cause I owned Jocko lines and now the only breedable dog on my yard now is my little 30lbs Zebo/Adams dog I used to cross out my heavy inbred Jocko dogs, it would be to tempting to fk up the OFRN purity out of curiousity of seeing the extremely seperated genetics of old school blood being thrown together.

JFYI to really understand canine behavior, you have to understand canine genetics~ stickin' to it ;) I wrongly assume peopel know what I know, as many of you seem to know alot; so I do not put it in crayon..

Once again personal irritations to the side; Just curious how this dog Diesel could be considered a bully...
I thought the same thing about the american bulldog and all the Johnson paperwork and what I found out was enough to piss off a world of people.. There are Colby dogs big 75lbs+ dogs registered Johnson APBT and Johnson AM BULLDOG~ ehh.. , proving colby right; that AMbulldogs come from inbreeding XL APBTS to get brutes.
Heres my personal favorite Jocko, it says no weight but he is clearly the size of mayday pictured at chain weight, just by comparing him to the men in the back. ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [392] :: CHAVIS' JOCKO (4XW) I believe in small game dogs and bred my Jocko stuff down to 35lbs (smaller than Jacksons CH Hank)then crossed it to Zebo/Adams dog.. Had all the pups fixed and retired as I recreated the long legged bulldog http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/26690-my-recreation-barenbiter-bearbiter-bullbiter-straight-game-dogs.htmlout of straight american game dogs, but I was able to do that because I don't know what I am doing.

OH,, and heres your BIG JOHN at 75lbs chainweight
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [15905] :: CH WACCAMAW'S BIG JOHN (3XW)

THat would mean 62lbs minimum =)) pit weight still a big dog~
Interesting that colby said that because his son and I had a conversation and he basically said it might be able to happen getting big game dogs by breeding big dogs to big dogs but not likely, Mr B pretty much said the same thing and had a good laugh when we discussed the claims about these so called pure bred eli dogs being very large.

Big john looks no where near 75 pounds and I can take a 50 pound dog up to 75 easy if I wanted too. How can you get a bull dog from a dog that is a bulldog terrier cross? The way I see it is there was the bull dog and people took those bulldogs crossed them with terriers to get the APBT. Bull dogs have been around a long time before they started really getting them to be breeds on their own. Did that makes sense?
 
#21 ·
Seriously... Really??? Game does not improve drive, or the sound temperment of an APBT that has not be game bred? ehh.. Large game bred dogs could have a weight title as well as others and it would clear up the blood.. Hooch could pull my 1500 85 scottdale, thats why his dad got stolen from me, showing them whopper pulling dogs up when those guys would stop by out in Nowata.. before you know there were whopper dogs coming up with jocko conformation.. your paper ringing coment hits home with me, because if you and tx are as smart as you seem then you can spot a rung dog, so I will honor your opinions because at this point anything is possible and I can think of Tudors, Carver, Eli, Boudreaux, Crenshaw, Redboy, rung dogs or dog rung with those papers rather ;)
 
#22 ·
Drive and gameness are two way different things, you can breed two dogs with great drive and two game dogs and look at those litters and I bet ya the drive litter has produced more drivey dogs then the game dogs produced game dogs. So in short no I dont think gameness will improve drive they are different Breeding for gameness was (talking historically since game testing is a no go anymore in the US) very difficult to breed for and was a crap shoot many times. Which I know you know just putting it out there. So what I am saying is do you think all weight pull dogs are game? That is what I was saying it doesnt take a game dog to pull I mean you have this dog Toy Poodle in Weight Pulling Contest - Oddities News - redOrbit is he game :)

oh BTW this is just healthy discussion I am not fighting with ya :)
 
#24 ·
Firehazard,
It appears I will have to be very direct with you and more so then I want too on an open forum.

Gameness is drive. Prey drive is what gameness is all about. Dogs never fought for survival, they fought to win and conquer. To dominate.
Their prey was the other dog not a weight pull cart.
Gameness is showed when a dog is tired, hurt and frustrated.
A cart doesn't fight back, it doesn't give a dog a reason to quit.
Breeding game stock in to pull stock will not improve the ability of a pull dog to improve its abilities on a track.

These over size mutt bred pull dogs are not game dogs and since they are crossed, they aren't true American Gamedogs aka APBT. Breeding those mutts into these kind of dogs only will produce is more over size untrustworthy mutts.

UKC has taken the position to have the APBT get back to the traditional size of the APBT by closing single registration April 30, 2010. I understand there might be a new "Bully Breed" for these over sized mutts. It depends if they can breed true of which the American Bulldog couldn't do and was another spin off of the APBT like Bandogs, etc.
 
#27 ·
What do you think about Rios Dogs? 80lbs chinaman/gator dogs? Males
would these dogs be game bred as they were taken from game stock or would they be pulling dogs.
Well if the parents were tested and proven game (of course anyone can say anything these days since there are no matching in the lime light and even discussing game testing your dogs can land you in jail, thus making e champions the flavor of the year) they would be game bred, but until proven other wise they are simply over sized dogs in someones yard. Weight pulling is not a way to prove gameness it just isnt there is no comparison to pulling and a dog going back when he could barely walk and has just had his butt handed to him in the box. As far as his dogs I would like to see some DNA testing because both FB and GB said it is virtually impossible that a chinaman dog would go that large. I love talking to the old dogs in the breed because we get good laughs out of all this my 90 pound dog is pure chinaman crap people pull from their rears.
 
#28 ·
What do you think about Rios Dogs? 80lbs chinaman/gator dogs? Males
I don't believe in dogs that big, I've read, been taught other wise. Especailly the 110 lb dog. But I'm not goin to bash a mans dogs but I don't believe in APBTs being that big.
 
#29 ·
or me game is the "drive" to tackle any bull, bear, "dog",
So if I have say lab and I decide to fight him and he runs in with drive and attacks the dog but then decides he is losing and starts howling and scambling for the wall he is game because he had the drive to get into it with another dog?

Or say I take a border collie out and he runs in and pulls a bull down to the ground but sustains no injuries and the bull gave in to him and went down without a fight then that border collie would be game?
 
#30 · (Edited)
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=14282
Sired by a 9x winner, alot of wins for dog thats not game~ some good blood...

No~ once again, (for me game is the "drive" to tackle any bull, bear, "dog", be able to be worked to point he's just holding on a whooped mess, and then he comes back to handle his business and work down his opponent.. )for a dog to engage into a known threat as powerfull as a bull or a bear with no fear, and WITH OUT CURRING, consistantly engaging, even when its just a winded bag of bones, then bounces back with the drive or more drive than he/she had when entered the challenge. However a APBT can out herd a Border Collie and out retrieve and jump a Labrador, unfortunatley those dogs can't out do the APBT at what it was bred to do. Hooch has curred out many dogs just by his presence, including apbts of boudreaux and sorrels lines, had those dogs circle owners feet trying to get out of site, LOL... That was just on coyote hunts before and after hunts.

When raising any catch dogs, or bear dogs, or for cats(mt.lions) even hounds have kennel fights and sometimes even killing each other, its important you find a state that supports your lifestyle, hunting predators with dogs is big in Idaho, so dog fighting is a misd and there has to be a witness and gambling invovled. Because so many people have bear dogs, hounds, game dogs(very few), catch dogs(cur dogs), etc to hunt predators, while working for the vet made many calls to stitch up peoples hounds and such..Although they aren't game dogs they are pugnacious so the laws support the peoples consitutional rights. So I don't worry about kennel disputes anymore, just patch em up, though they are slim to none these days, no pit fighting going on here, just intense little dogs of prey. IN no way do I believe weight pulling can prove a game dog, rather its excercise for him/her, like strength training a boxer
As far as the big dogs we already agree that a game dog should be small as I bred my foundation 75lb 3/4 Jocko male down to 35lbs. I brought up those big chinaman dogs because people swear that big dogs from "game" lines are rung or mongerals... So I just wondered what ya'll thought about that, I didn't think chinaman dogs went over 50 hell 45lb as far as what I have seen, but Im not keen on those dogs and big dogs and occur, I got a lil shot of G&G spike in my 30lb zebo dog thats about it from garner. Mind you Chavis Jocko(my bag) was big dog and his sire was a 40lbs dog, so big dogs can occur from small dogs (begging the question). Fred T was Tudors and Useltons, thats all I needed to know, a well bred dog that I don't see around much, I used heavy Tudors dogs because Tudors gathered dogs and through them all together so the way I see it those lines have some good stuff waiting to resurface especially tossed in with Jocko, all kinds of good stuff popped up.. Genetics is everything~
The original dogmen took game dogs to show, to weight pull, etc.. SO why should we do any different? Whats that Heinzel said? "When we start breeding for looks?~ yadda yadda" We should breed for game which is a mentality, the rest just falls in place. JMO
 
#35 ·
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [14282] :: GR CH ACE MAX DUGAN VITALI
Sired by a 9x winner, alot of wins for dog thats not game~ some good blood...

No~ once again, (for me game is the "drive" to tackle any bull, bear, "dog", be able to be worked to point he's just holding on a whooped mess, and then he comes back to handle his business and work down his opponent.. )for a dog to engage into a known threat as powerfull as a bull or a bear with no fear, and WITH OUT CURRING, consistantly engaging, even when its just a winded bag of bones, then bounces back with the drive or more drive than he/she had when entered the challenge. However a APBT can out herd a Border Collie and out retrieve and jump a Labrador, unfortunatley those dogs can't out do the APBT at what it was bred to do. Hooch has curred out many dogs just by his presence, including apbts of boudreaux and sorrels lines, had those dogs circle owners feet trying to get out of site, LOL... That was just on coyote hunts before and after hunts.

When raising any catch dogs, or bear dogs, or for cats(mt.lions) even hounds have kennel fights and sometimes even killing each other, its important you find a state that supports your lifestyle, hunting predators with dogs is big in Idaho, so dog fighting is a misd and there has to be a witness and gambling invovled. Because so many people have bear dogs, hounds, game dogs(very few), catch dogs(cur dogs), etc to hunt predators, while working for the vet made many calls to stitch up peoples hounds and such..Although they aren't game dogs they are pugnacious so the laws support the peoples consitutional rights. So I don't worry about kennel disputes anymore, just patch em up, though they are slim to none these days, no pit fighting going on here, just intense little dogs of prey. IN no way do I believe weight pulling can prove a game dog, rather its excercise for him/her, like strength training a boxer
As far as the big dogs we already agree that a game dog should be small as I bred my foundation 75lb 3/4 Jocko male down to 35lbs. I brought up those big chinaman dogs because people swear that big dogs from "game" lines are rung or mongerals... So I just wondered what ya'll thought about that, I didn't think chinaman dogs went over 50 hell 45lb as far as what I have seen, but Im not keen on those dogs and big dogs and occur, I got a lil shot of G&G spike in my 30lb zebo dog thats about it from garner. Mind you Chavis Jocko(my bag) was big dog and his sire was a 40lbs dog, so big dogs can occur from small dogs (begging the question). Fred T was Tudors and Useltons, thats all I needed to know, a well bred dog that I don't see around much, I used heavy Tudors dogs because Tudors gathered dogs and through them all together so the way I see it those lines have some good stuff waiting to resurface especially tossed in with Jocko, all kinds of good stuff popped up.. Genetics is everything~
The original dogmen took game dogs to show, to weight pull, etc.. SO why should we do any different? Whats that Heinzel said? "When we start breeding for looks?~ yadda yadda" We should breed for game which is a mentality, the rest just falls in place. JMO
That pup is in my pedigree:)
 
#32 · (Edited)
Why not just dissect the "Bully Bloodlines" and not bring in the rest because it only adds confusion to your position.:hammer:[/QUOTE]

I got all twisted up proving that big dogs occur even from small game dog stock, a rare brute can pop up.. Surounding the King issue... This is the first time I have tried to help the pulling dogs and I found a sht storm when I stepped in, so I figured I would ask... YOU gents brought up that King was an AM BULL and the whole convo lost direction from there.. I didn't say that the dogs get a 12lb advantage rather they work that weight off the dog, to meet at a smaller weight, say a 65lbs chain weight and 75lbs chain weight meet at 59lbs because one throws his weight better. I wonder why we disagree because when I was educated by DT of Xpress is where I get alot of my Yellow dog knowledge he told me specifically that these dogs should be no bigger than 55lbs but big dogs are produced and conditioned down so that its true chain or catch weight is in play dogs like Jocko in which he told me was a 70lbs dog although conditioned off to meet that "game dog weight"; because Hooch is related to all those dogs, I wanted to know why he was so big from a 50lbs male and female although the gyp did hit 60lbs at one time. That lead me to call and arrange meetings with other yards VK, HHK(hardhitting kennels had the smallest gamedogs I've seen 23lbs and almost pure Jocko), to get a good understanding of the Jocko/Redboy dogs and what they throw, which is alot of big dogs. Comparing them to other lines and watching how they grow and what they do~ I have put the info up to back every statment I made except for the mistake in speaking in which I have openly admitted, I have also admitted I turned down every chance to put wins on my dog, even turned down good money to send a dog to philipines and another to ecuador, so your right if you are in that world you know more, than what your told or taught, experience by experience is the best education. I know Im a dumb:poop: with a bunch of crap dogs, and a :poop: regiment, otherwise my dogs of prey http://www.myspace.com/abishaikennels(as I advertised them until I retired) wouldn't be able to run miles in the mountains and catch bear fight and kill coyotes all night and run the milesthrough the moutains back home... I know nothing of genetics or behavior... By the way knowledge comes from wisdom and understanding, when your wrong your wrong, I was wrong I admitted that and you sound like a batch by calling me out as to changing statements like I was Obama or somthing, when I admitted a mistake, from how I talk.. No one is right all the time, even you, when intelligent people are wrong they admit it and grow from it, ehh TX.. Keep talking sht; making me famous ;)

Your right about that; I am on here way TOOO MUCH.. I easily get misdirected; two more things your right about, now be careful patting yourself on the back, that bursitis will start kicking in... :D I won't check this thread again, because it is off subject and theres no going back~
 
#37 ·
K guys I didn't read this whole thread but I did look at the peds on the page. Way back they say Johnson's this or Johnson's that, That is American Bulldog for sure Johnson was one of the main guys for American Bulldogs so if they say they have a Johnson dog way back in the ped then they are American bulldog crosses. Some one said it out right Whopper dog. Wanna be a whopper was an AmBulldog APBT cross so you got it :D
 
#38 ·
K guys I didn't read this whole thread but I did look at the peds on the page. Way back they say Johnson's this or Johnson's that, That is American Bulldog for sure Johnson was one of the main guys for American Bulldogs so if they say they have a Johnson dog way back in the ped then they are American bulldog crosses. Some one said it out right Whopper dog. Wanna be a whopper was an AmBulldog APBT cross so you got it :D
I believe he was Dogue de Bordeaux X ?????? no one knows for sure, If I was to guess I would say he was Dogue de Bordeaux X AmBulldog I don't believe he had and APBT in him IMO that is.

This thread has gone off track lol
 
#39 · (Edited)
Gamer, a friend of mine named Bob Fritz former owner of APRL who also coached for conditioning Micheal Spink when he fought Mike Tyson. Bob is the person who always conditioned Chinaman for the owner V.R. in CA. Bob told me when he got Chinaman he was severally malnutritioned. He had to shotgun steroid him. I asked Bob what that meant, he said he had to give 4 steroids at once to Chinaman to build him back up to a healthy weight.
Chinaman is basically from the Boudreaux Eli blood. I've had many dogs from the Eli stock over the years. I bred to Ch. Rascal's brother Ch. Paddy Boy in 1975. I never had dogs 75+ pounds chain weight. Some in the 60's but not 70's.

Firehazard, all modern combat dogs are Corvino/Tudor cross.
The name which appears the most in the last 4 generations in Dibo is Corvino.
Only xpress I knew was Texas Express. Only D.T. I knew which Gr. Ch. Yellow dogs was the owner David. Ch. Jocko dogs would get large for the breed standard but I believe they were pure breed and not mutt crossed or could they produce 85+ dogs. BTW what did Ch. Jocko or his brother Ch. Argus ever produce that didn't have Red Boy in the pedigree? NADA!
BTW to be in Catch Weight and showing a 75 pound dog and a 65 pound dog at 59 lb. isn't catch weight, it is pound for pound and if both best weight is 59 lb you can't tell me that it is as easy or natural or healthy for the 75 lb. dog to take off 16 pounds as would be for a 65 lb. dog to take off 6 pounds in a KEEP.
I have conditioned about as many dogs as anyone alive at this time and I can tell you which has the edge at show time.....
This is why V.A. turned the conditioning over to some one who what he was doing with Mayday.

Back to the thread topic. We all have known for years these over sized dogs were mutt bred. If they were used in the [] they would have been culled (bigger they are, bigger chance of them being a cur) but instead they were used for weight pulling. Because they were big, stupid and would stagger down the track pulling weights everyone were in ah of them. Breeding dogs down from Gamedogs, notice I didn't say "game stock" because even dogs from "game stock" has to culled, will not produce better pulling dogs. I knew many Gamedogs which wouldn't work a lick in Keep but in the [], they were hell on wheels!
Personally, I glad they are now again trying to standardize the breed in size and shape. This is why it took almost 40 years for AKC would recognize the dogs as a pure breed because they came in every shape, size and color.

No matter what event to compete in, it is only right that you compete with other dogs of the same standard so the playing field is level. If it is only APBT breed pull, they should meet the true standard of a "pure bred" APBT! JMO.

BTW Gr. Ch. Pedro wasn't a 9xw. Bob Cox who once owned him claims the dog Davis, Snakeman had wasn't the same dog so there is dispute over the dog.
His son wasn't a tested proven dog. For all anyone knows, he could ahve been a cull.
BTW Ch. Rascal wasn't an 8xw only 5xw and quit twice.
 
#41 ·
Gamer, a friend of mine named Bob Fritz former owner of APRL who also coached for conditioning Micheal Spink when he fought Mike Tyson. Bob is the person who always conditioned Chinaman for the owner V.R. in CA. Bob told me when he got Chinaman he was severally malnutritioned. He had to shotgun steroid him. I asked Bob what that meant, he said he had to give 4 steroids at once to Chinaman to build him back up to a healthy weight.
Chinaman is basically from the Boudreaux Eli blood. I've had many dogs from the Eli stock over the years. I bred to Ch. Rascal's brother Ch. Paddy Boy in 1975. I never had dogs 75+ pounds chain weight. Some in the 60's but not 70's.
Yeah this is why it is so funny when people try to convince me they have a 90 pound Chinaman dog. I had one guy cuss me out because he said he had a dog with chinaman in the ped I think it was like 16 times and he was 110 pounds. Of course when I asked for the ped the parent with the "chinaman" blood he could not find his papers :)
 
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