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Old 04-16-2009, 12:54 AM   #16 (permalink)
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my pup got me thinking about it. i absolutly love his drive but his shyness bothers the hell out of me. so far he apraches some people and others he will try and avoid.
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Old 04-16-2009, 12:40 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rock Creek Kennels View Post
Yes, I know. But you shouldnt kill off an entire litter because of one "bad apple". Culling may have been fine 50 years ago, but not anymore. I hardly consider shyness a trait worth culling. The proper way would be spay/neuter and place in a pet only home. If you were responsible enough to produce it, you should be responsible enough to take care of it. You should NEVER put down healthy dog, unless it was human aggressive.
I feel a slightly shy dog with good work ethics is not a cull, but I wouldnt breed to it unless it showed me somethin extra about itself that its litter mates didnt poses!
As A breeder, I could not in good concious place an inferior dog in a pet home! I also feel 50 years ago the breed as a whole was in much better shape than today! The petbull trade IMO is and allways will be the downfall of this breed! A responsible breeder cleans up there own mess, and will allways be striving to produce superior individuales! culling is the differance between average or greatness, It has always been that way, and is the only way to produce any kind of above par consistancy!
Its easy to tell a breeders knowledge on the breed by what they are feeding! An inferior dog on a breeders yard especially a pregnant one is an indication of knowledge or lack of it!

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Old 04-16-2009, 12:56 PM   #18 (permalink)
 
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As most of you know, we're not breeders over here.

I have family members that bred apbt's for years and ONE of their dogs was exactly like you describe. He was probably the most athletic dog I've ever seen, but he was WAY shy around strange people. He would however fetch a 4x4 block for hours rarely stopping to drink with a mouth full of long, bloody splinters. That said, they didn't try to breed or sell him, they just gave him to my aunt who eventually adopted him out to a farmer because he destroyed her home when he was left alone.

Wouldn't it be difficult to get good money for the pups if the potential buyers wanted to see the parents and one of them was acting funny?
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Old 04-16-2009, 01:18 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I personally would not breed the dog. There are so many other dogs with good temperament. I do like PK9's post, about keeping the litter, and culling, then spaying. I have seen pits that were not shy at all but were a little aloof until their owner accepted the stranger.
The original post mentioned the dog was very workable, and so could probably title. However, if not the dog does not like to be touched, could the dog really have the nerve to finish a title, such as the CD (stand for exam), or conformation(judge going over dog)? Also, was the puppy raised by the handler, or was the dog second hand?
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Old 04-16-2009, 04:11 PM   #20 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by pimpidypimp View Post
I feel a slightly shy dog with good work ethics is not a cull, but I wouldnt breed to it unless it showed me somethin extra about itself that its litter mates didnt poses!

Actually, it wouldnt be a "cur".

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As A breeder, I could not in good concious place an inferior dog in a pet home!
Why not? Just because a dog won't pull, have good confirmation, or is a little shy doesnt mean it wouldnt make a good pet for someone. I dont believe those are good enough reason to put a dog down either. Just do the RESPONSIBLE thing. Get the pup spay/neutered and place in a pet home. The dog can never be bred so no harm done.

What are your reasons for breeding?

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I also feel 50 years ago the breed as a whole was in much better shape than today! The petbull trade IMO is and allways will be the downfall of this breed! A responsible breeder cleans up there own mess, and will allways be striving to produce superior individuales! culling is the differance between average or greatness, It has always been that way, and is the only way to produce any kind of above par consistancy!
Its easy to tell a breeders knowledge on the breed by what they are feeding! An inferior dog on a breeders yard especially a pregnant one is an indication of knowledge or lack of it!
You call killing dogs "cleaning up your own mess"? Thats just the easy way out. If a dogs been spayed, it cannot be bred. If a dogs been neutered, it cannot be bred. I'm not sure if you realize this or not, by reading your post.

I agree the breed was in a better place 50 years ago. But, ALOT has changed in 50 years.
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Old 04-16-2009, 04:13 PM   #21 (permalink)
 
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Wouldn't it be difficult to get good money for the pups if the potential buyers wanted to see the parents and one of them was acting funny?
The key to breeding has nothing at all to do with making money.
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Old 04-16-2009, 04:19 PM   #22 (permalink)
 
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The original post mentioned the dog was very workable, and so could probably title. However, if not the dog does not like to be touched, could the dog really have the nerve to finish a title, such as the CD (stand for exam), or conformation(judge going over dog)?

Just because a dog could get a title, still doesnt mean it should be bred. I could take just about any dog, bred anyway, and train it to work to get a title. In order to breed, you first need a proven high-caliber dog that has the "total package".
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Old 04-16-2009, 05:23 PM   #23 (permalink)
 
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Where people like it or not culling is an important part of breeding no matter what animal you breed.

you know as much as i dont like it..you have a point, and a good one, it's the natural law of things, mothers kill their young all the time in the wild b/c they know the young wont make it, dogs do the same..i've seen mothers kill all but 1 pup in a litter before.
but i do think it would take longer than 12 weeks for a human to tell if the dog was a bad seed or not. we dont have the 'it factor' that animals have.

but i'm not for breeding unless you know your stuff...ya know? i'm not to fimilar with dog breeding, i've always bred larger livestock, so yes, i'm confident in knowing what i do when i do that..and i do it well..i've turned out several GCH in the livestock showing ring, but doggies, i'm fine with them just being my pets!
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Old 04-16-2009, 05:46 PM   #24 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Rock Creek Kennels View Post
The key to breeding has nothing at all to do with making money.
Why are dogs put up for sale then? The way this thread is headed, any dog that's not perfect in the breeder's opinion should be put down. That just doesn't seem right to me.

I don't mean to ruffle feathers, but I'd rather a person breed and sell beautiful dogs in a responsible and humane fashion for profit than weed out the ones they don't like because of some intensely radical belief that only the dogs deemed to be perfect should survive. If you don't like some of your puppies, have them fixed and put them up for adoption.

I can't be the only one that feels that way on this forum. There are a lot of other family pet owners here.
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Old 04-16-2009, 05:59 PM   #25 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" View Post
Why are dogs put up for sale then? The way this thread is headed, any dog that's not perfect in the breeder's opinion should be put down. That just doesn't seem right to me.

I don't mean to ruffle feathers, but I'd rather a person breed and sell beautiful dogs in a responsible and humane fashion for profit than weed out the ones they don't like because of some intensely radical belief that only the dogs deemed to be perfect should survive. If you don't like some of your puppies, have them fixed and put them up for adoption.

I can't be the only one that feels that way on this forum. There are a lot of other family pet owners here.

There are tons of familys that would be perfectly happy with a pup that the breeder did not feel was a good enough.

Look how many people go to shelters to adopt pups? They have no idea what the parents were like or even if the dog is mixed with anything.

I personally feel there is no reason ever to put down a puppy unless it is medical and the quality of life is in question. I say spay/nueter and put them up for adoption OR surrender them to a no kill pit rescue in the are so they can spay/nueter and place them in screened homes. Just my opinion.
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:01 PM   #26 (permalink)
 

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Well it depends on who your talking to ... Honestly there is a difference between a good working dog with working potential and than a pet bull dog who may lack the drive or temperment and sound structure that a good working kennel would strive to produce in the offspring. If your a working kennel most likely your going to place your pups with people who work there dogs or the breeder will keep most if not the entire litter and use them in the future for working and breeding purposes. I don't believe any dog is born perfect ( no such thing as a perfect specimin) every dog has a flaw of some sort some more than others , nor do I believe that every puppy in a litter will go on to be a champion even if the pups are bred from 2 A+ working dogs. Breeding is an art and you might have to breed over and over before you get the desired results your looking for to perfect your stock. Sometimes you get a few born workers in a litter and you may get a few who will never have the working drive or temperment needed to excel in the show world. That does not mean those pups/dogs can't be placed in loving pet bull homes with people who just want a great family companion and are not concered with breeding and showing . That is where spaying and neutering these pups and finding them loving homes comes into play. I think it's unrealistic for any breeder to think every pup in a litter will/should go on to be a top working dog or producer if it was that easy breeder's wouldn't spend the time and money needed to select and breed and perfect their mistakes along the way. And any good working kennel should never breed for profit EVER!! ... Good working kennels should be breeding to better their lines/stock and the money they make back on placing their pups cover's the time and money put into the breeding itself.

I also wanted to add that any good working kennel who strives to produce top working dogs is not going to breed anything they know is lacking in temperment, drive, structure, and working ability if a breeder cares about hs/her dogs and they have a true purpose to breed they will only strive to produce the best unless your a byb breeding for profit.

Last edited by Sadie; 04-16-2009 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:30 PM   #27 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by RonnyMc "Jaymo's Dad" View Post
Why are dogs put up for sale then?
SadieBlues hit the nail on the head. "And any good working kennel should never breed for profit EVER!! ... Good working kennels should be breeding to better their lines/stock and the money they make back on placing their pups cover's the time and money put into the breeding itself."

You should never be "making money" off of dogs. If you are, youre overbreeding.



Quote:
The way this thread is headed, any dog that's not perfect in the breeder's opinion should be put down. That just doesn't seem right to me.
Youre right, its not right. But unfortantley, its that way some people are.



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I don't mean to ruffle feathers, but I'd rather a person breed and sell beautiful dogs in a responsible and humane fashion for profit than weed out the ones they don't like because of some intensely radical belief that only the dogs deemed to be perfect should survive. If you don't like some of your puppies, have them fixed and put them up for adoption.

I can't be the only one that feels that way on this forum. There are a lot of other family pet owners here.

I agree with you 100%. As do several others.
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:37 PM   #28 (permalink)
 
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You call killing dogs "cleaning up your own mess"? Thats just the easy way out. If a dogs been spayed, it cannot be bred. If a dogs been neutered, it cannot be bred. I'm not sure if you realize this or not, by reading your post.

I agree the breed was in a better place 50 years ago. But, ALOT has changed in 50 years.

Are you for real? You would place a dog that had temperament issues in a home instead if culling?? This will be the down fall of our breed!! Ok not to get too nasty so I guess we can agree to disagree.

This is totally OT to the OP but since you are talking about culling it is done heavy by show and game lines all the time.
And yes 50 years ago the breed was better because only the best of the best were kept alive and bred. Today the breed is turning in to the monster the media has painted because of bad breeding practices. To allow a crappy animal to live whether it's HA or fear or whatever gives these dogs a bad name. If you are not willing to cull you should have no business breeding. In all the years I had this breed I have only had to cull 2 dogs. To spay that dog and sell or place them would have been giving someone a loaded gun. That would have been incredibly irresponsible and unethical of me. So hate culling if you want but it makes sure that bad dogs do not enter the general public.
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:38 PM   #29 (permalink)
 
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you know as much as i dont like it..you have a point, and a good one, it's the natural law of things, mothers kill their young all the time in the wild b/c they know the young wont make it, dogs do the same..i've seen mothers kill all but 1 pup in a litter before.
but i do think it would take longer than 12 weeks for a human to tell if the dog was a bad seed or not. we dont have the 'it factor' that animals have.

Sometimes the mother will kill her young just because she can not properly care for them all. She will get it down to a more managable amount.

I had a friend whos female killed every puppy in every litter she ever had. She didnt weed out just the "bad" ones, but all of them.
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:45 PM   #30 (permalink)
 

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I also wanted to add culling 50 years ago was more common in the breed because these dogs were being bred for the( box) these dogs served a different purpose 50 years ago. It is extremely difficult to get more than 1 prize fighter with that gameness trait in a single litter so doggers culled curs out hard because they did not serve a purpose to dogman obviously if the dog could not hold up in the box what use would the dog have to the handler . Today the breed is no longer used for the same purpose in which it was orginally bred for therefore culling dogs because they are not game is no longer relevent. Culling for medical reasons or human aggression is a must .. But culling a dog because it lacks drive or may not be a quality show/working specimin IMO is uncalled for. These dogs aren't always born A + workers but that does not mean they can't make a hell of a family dog to a person looking for a pet to love and call their own.

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