would you or would you not breed this - Page 3

Sadie · 04-16-2009, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by performanceknls

Are you for real? You would place a dog that had temperament issues in a home instead if culling?? This will be the down fall of our breed!! Ok not to get too nasty so I guess we can agree to disagree.

This is totally OT to the OP but since you are talking about culling it is done heavy by show and game lines all the time.
And yes 50 years ago the breed was better because only the best of the best were kept alive and bred. Today the breed is turning in to the monster the media has painted because of bad breeding practices. To allow a crappy animal to live whether it's HA or fear or whatever gives these dogs a bad name. If you are not willing to cull you should have no business breeding. In all the years I had this breed I have only had to cull 2 dogs. To spay that dog and sell or place them would have been giving someone a loaded gun. That would have been incredibly irresponsible and unethical of me. So hate culling if you want but it makes sure that bad dogs do not enter the general public.

I agree you should cull a dog who is severely unstable in temperment. HA is a number one reason to cull hard. But a puppy who is shy? That may lower it's head or turn away from people not showing HA but just shyness in general is not a reason to cull. You have to work with that puppy if the pup is not posing a threat to humans but is just scared in a submissive sort of way I don't see a reason to cull a pup like that. I have a pup who was shy but not human aggressive she never barked or growled or bit out of fear she would just bow her head down and shake or run and hide when I would go to pick her up or pet her ... She did this for a few months of me getting her she was really scared .. And eventually she stopped. After socializing her more around different people, animals, and enviormnets that shyness was gone. She is no longer the same scared puppy. It took some time but she is no longer showing that type of behavior. I think it really depends on the situation and what your dealing with.

Rock Creek Kennels · 04-16-2009, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by performanceknls

Are you for real? You would place a dog that had temperament issues in a home instead if culling?? This will be the down fall of our breed!! Ok not to get too nasty so I guess we can agree to disagree.

No, we would never and have never placed a HA dog. I'm talking about low drive or poor confirmation dogs. Its hard to tell anything at only 12 weeks.

The downfall is shabby breeders that would sell anything to anyone. Breeders who dont take proper actions to care for what they produced. Breeders who are into mass production and making money. We would NEVER cull a dog unless there was proper reasoning behind it.

Quote:

the breed was better because only the best of the best were kept alive and bred.

Still doesnt make it right. Do you know what spay/neuter is? IT MEANS THE DOG CAN NEVER, AND WILL NEVER BE BRED. We agree about only using the best, but we do it humanely.

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Today the breed is turning in to the monster the media has painted because of bad breeding practices.

Agreed.

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To allow a crappy animal to live whether it's HA or fear or whatever gives these dogs a bad name.

False. I agree on the HA part, but answer this. Should we start killing every person in the world who is a little shy?

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If you are not willing to cull you should have no business breeding.

No, if youre not willing to properly care for what you have produced, you have no business breeding. Do it the humane and proper way. Dont just kill them off because you want to take the easy way out.

Quote:

In all the years I had this breed I have only had to cull 2 dogs. To spay that dog and sell or place them would have been giving someone a loaded gun. That would have been incredibly irresponsible and unethical of me. So hate culling if you want but it makes sure that bad dogs do not enter the general public.

If they were HA I agree. If they had low drive or poor confirmation you should be in jail for animal cruelity.

You never answered my question. What reasons are you breeding for?

Howardsperformancek9 (Got the BAN STICK) · 04-16-2009, 08:10 PM

To Rockcreek,
No, just because a dog can earn a title, does not mean it has good temperament, it definately does not. I was just responding to the original poster's " the dog has great working drive and could easily title". I brought up a circumstance where a dog has to be touched.
Regarding culling, I am a true beleiver in it, for many temperament issues, but not for conformation faults alone. Also, shyness is a big issue. Most dogs, bite out of fear and lack of confidence, rather than a dominance. So yes, fear or shyness in a pit bull can be dangerous.

Sadie · 04-16-2009, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howardsperformancek9

To Rockcreek,
No, just because a dog can earn a title, does not mean it has good temperament, it definately does not. I was just responding to the original poster's " the dog has great working drive and could easily title". I brought up a circumstance where a dog has to be touched.
Regarding culling, I am a true beleiver in it, for many temperament issues, but not for conformation faults alone. Also, shyness is a big issue. Most dogs, bite out of fear and lack of confidence, rather than a dominance. So yes, fear or shyness in a pit bull can be dangerous.

It can be ... but you have to properly evaluate the dog before you can deem it as a dangerous situation or a TRUE temperment flaw. There are different levels of shyness If you have a grown dog who will bite out of fear that to me is an unstable dog and needs to be put down ASAP. But if you have a puppy who is shy puppies can be worked with there are many different reasons why a puppy may show shyness .. It does not necassarily mean that puppy has a temperment problem. You wouldn't really know anyway until the pup is a bit older and you have been able to evulate the pup and work with the pup before you can make that call. IMO Your going to need a lot more time than 12 weeks to make a sound choice as to whether or not the pup truly possesses a true temperment flaw that would pose a threat later on. JMO

performanceknls · 04-16-2009, 09:46 PM

A shy APBT is not the correct temperament for a true APBT.

But I never said cull a dog who lacks drive or is conformationally incorrect. So please do not put words in my mouth. For that type of dog I would spay and neuter. I am talking about mentally unsound dogs who displays trouble early on.

I have a really shy dogs in my kennel that is spayed. I did not breed her she was a rescue I kept so don't think I would not work with a dog that had issues. But as breeder you should be able to identify any potential problems and take care of it.

I breed for working dogs and look for drive and intelligence. But anything I breed is not because I am looking for a better working dog I breed and want to keep true characteristics of this breed. Keeping away from show-lines and sticking more to the gamebred dogs helps ensure this. A great gamebred dog has everything I need in a working dog. I do have a bitch that I am breeding back to some show lines but that is a favor to my sister kennel and I hope to get some nice dogs in that litter. That will be my first breeding into show-lines.

and statements like this
False. I agree on the HA part, but answer this. Should we start killing every person in the world who is a little shy?

Is really stupid, these are dogs not people! give me a break!

marineguy56 · 04-16-2009, 10:11 PM

I would have to say no. This is a proud breed and should carry itself with confidence. Something like that I would consider a flaw.

wheezie · 04-17-2009, 02:38 AM

wow this really started to become a good topic!!! sorry i have been away from pc latly, life is nuts.

just so everyone knows i am not planing on ever breeding my dog.

smokey_joe · 04-17-2009, 02:54 AM

We're just talking at little shy here, not downright HA. A shy dog can be worked with. HA is a different story altogether.

MY MIKADO · 04-17-2009, 01:41 PM

I have to agree with Rock Creek Kennels. A life is a life and if you helped bring that life into the world you should be willing ot take care of that life. I really don't see how you can tell at 12 weeks that a pup is going to be HA because it is shy right now and I gathered from the posts that the two culled pups were culled for this type of flaw.

Yes this is proud breed but not everything goes according to plan when you have pups. One could become shy mearly because the others are more outgoing so they get attention and the other one does not. Maybe something bad happened to the one pup that emotionaly scared the pup and so the said pup needs extra work.

My girl Vendetta, yes she was from an oops litter, she is shy around men. I'm working on it every week we go into town to find men that will greet her and she is getting better. I don't plan on breeding her I will leave that to people that know what they are doing but I would hate to think that because of this SHYNESS she would be culled.

chic4pits · 04-17-2009, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock Creek Kennels

Sometimes the mother will kill her young just because she can not properly care for them all. She will get it down to a more managable amount.

I had a friend whos female killed every puppy in every litter she ever had. She didnt weed out just the "bad" ones, but all of them.

yea a friend of mine had a lab and both litters she had she killed every pup. and i had to help mary clean up the mess...that was one of the worst things iv'e ever seen, and i worked in an ER for 8 yrs. ....i've never seens something like that..the first time it happen we were in such shock, i knew that animals did that, but i'd never seen it first hand, and the thing that got me was, i would have never thought that with the plesant temperment nyla had that she would of done something like that...i tell you it wont bother me one bit if i never see that kinda thing again in my life.

Rock Creek Kennels · 04-17-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by performanceknls

A shy APBT is not the correct temperament for a true APBT.

But I never said cull a dog who lacks drive or is conformationally incorrect. So please do not put words in my mouth. For that type of dog I would spay and neuter. I am talking about mentally unsound dogs who displays trouble early on.

But its hard to tell anything at only 3 months.

"Back to the OP yes from what you describe I would breed the dog. This is what I would do. Breed the dog and evaluate the litter when they are 12 weeks. Any weird temperaments and I would cull the litter and spay the bitch. IMO"

In this post made by you, you said you would cull the entire litter for "any weird temperaments". What about culling the "bad ones" and spay/neuter the rest? Wouldnt that be better advise to a young breeder?

Quote:

I have a really shy dogs in my kennel that is spayed. I did not breed her she was a rescue I kept so don't think I would not work with a dog that had issues. But as breeder you should be able to identify any potential problems and take care of it.

In your opinion, shouldnt that dog be culled?

Quote:

I breed for working dogs and look for drive and intelligence. But anything I breed is not because I am looking for a better working dog I breed and want to keep true characteristics of this breed.

Thats a good thing, but you should also be breeding to better the breed.

Quote:

Keeping away from show-lines and sticking more to the gamebred dogs helps ensure this. A great gamebred dog has everything I need in a working dog. I do have a bitch that I am breeding back to some show lines but that is a favor to my sister kennel and I hope to get some nice dogs in that litter. That will be my first breeding into show-lines.

As far as the ADBA goes, show lines are game lines. If youre talking about the UKC, I agree.

What are the lines behind the blue dog in your sig? I havent seen to many "game lines" produce blue dogs.

Quote:

and statements like this

"False. I agree on the HA part, but answer this. Should we start killing every person in the world who is a little shy?"

Is really stupid, these are dogs not people! give me a break!

For people who truely love their dogs, they are alot like people.

sw_df27 · 04-17-2009, 04:35 PM

good post Mikado.......

shadowgames · 04-17-2009, 04:39 PM

Yes, I would and have, wouldn't inbred back to that dog or even linebred with anything again with the dog you speak of but I would inbred back to a littermate of that particular dog.

chic4pits · 04-17-2009, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smokey_joe

We're just talking at little shy here, not downright HA. A shy dog can be worked with. HA is a different story altogether.

i agree with you here. some shyness can be worked with, but if the dog is being shy out of fear, then you have to step back and look at the situation. can a dog really be that happy if it is scared of interaction, b/c that is what this breed lives for is human contact.not only that, you run into problems with fear, lashing out, or either the complete opposite, but they are unstable. but i dont think that would be a reason to kill it, unless it has shown HA (but with that too, you have to step back and evelauate to determin why the dog did what it did) was it human error? or the dog. thankfully now days they have test that you can run to make sure it's not genetical, then go from there to determin how stable the dog is. b/c i do agree, if someone just breeds to trun out dogs with aggression NO MATTER THE BREED, 1. that PERSON should be put down. 2. the dogs once again, need to be tested to see how safe they will be in a home or in society in general.

performanceknls · 04-17-2009, 06:01 PM

Rock Creek I am not going to continue to argue with you, it is pointless. Back to the OP it was not that I think any litter of dogs should be culled for being shy we were talking about breeding his dog. You try to make it seem like I would cull everything. Don't try to make this about me it was a suggestion to his OP.