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Old 08-02-2014, 01:09 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Carla, your hangup continues to be with your grasp of the word "mutt" as meaning a mixed dog when it's being used to mean "dog of indeterminable lineage". Replace that phrase wherever you see the word mutt being used, does your issue with the way information is being communicated still exist?

Mutt: a dog of mixed breed or uncertain origin.

Also, we're not trying to say that these dogs aren't going to act like bulldogs. The issue here is telling someone with a dog of indeterminable lineage that they have a pure bred dog when they don't. They very possibly could be, but none of us are able to tell that definitively without knowing the makeup of that dog. It's not teaching vagueness. The fact with those types of situations is that they don't know what their dog is, despite what it looks like it might be.

So the takeaway, once they get passed the butthurt of not having a purebred dog that they bought from someone on craiglist, or rescued from a shelter (in both cases they likely don't know the genetic history of said dog) is that though their dog isn't an [INSERT BREED NAME HERE] it probably is a mix of one or many bull breeds and thus will likely at some point act like one. The problem though, is that you and the many others that come here, misinterpret this as mutt-bashing when it isn't.

I consider my dog Loki a mutt, because I have zero information about where he came from. He may or may not be, but unless someone magically presents me with a pedigree stating he is X, Y or Z breed, I am going to continue to consider him a mutt because to call him anything else would be pure speculation. It doesn't make me value him any less or love him any less as the pet that he is. But he isn't an APBT, AST, SBT or any other specific breed, so I will not call him one.
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Old 08-02-2014, 01:12 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carla Restivo View Post
I actually don't have too much of a problem with "bull breed" mix either. Although I think often they do look enough like a Pit Bull to be called one! (And I don't consider a Mastiff as a bull-breed; Bull Mastiff would be).

OMG there are multiple mixes that would look like a "pitbull" to you! Would you tell someone I own Pitbulls too?



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Old 08-02-2014, 01:17 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BCdogs View Post
In regards to your hypothetical question, none would be true Pit Bulls. I would still consider them dogs of unknown lineage which, again, brings a much higher chance of having an unpredictable adult temperament.
Can an APBT have an unpredictable temperament?
If so, it's still an APBT, isn't it?
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Old 08-02-2014, 01:22 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Old 08-02-2014, 01:23 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Carriana View Post
Carla, your hangup continues to be with your grasp of the word "mutt" as meaning a mixed dog when it's being used to mean "dog of indeterminable lineage".
What do you mean by "lineage"? Never seen the word used that way before...it's always been a mixed-breed dog! That's how I've always heard and seen it used.
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Old 08-02-2014, 01:24 AM   #21 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carla Restivo View Post
Can an APBT have an unpredictable temperament?
If so, it's still an APBT, isn't it?
Of course they can. I said that dogs of unknown lineage have a HIGHER CHANCE of unpredictability because you don't KNOW what to expect from them, i.e. You can't look at their parents or grandparents and get a good idea of their general temperaments. There's nothing to base it off of. You're taking everything I'm saying SO out of context.
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Old 08-02-2014, 03:09 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Carla Restivo View Post
What do you mean by "lineage"? Never seen the word used that way before...it's always been a mixed-breed dog! That's how I've always heard and seen it used.

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Old 08-02-2014, 03:12 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carla Restivo View Post
What do you mean by "lineage"? Never seen the word used that way before...it's always been a mixed-breed dog! That's how I've always heard and seen it used.
Just because that's the only way you've heard and understood the word doesn't mean that it's the only way the word can be used.

lineage: lineal descent from an ancestor; ancestry or pedigree.

A dog without a known pedigree is, by definition, a dog of undetermined lineage. Bear in mind that we all have an ancestry, but not every bit of it is known. That's the whole point of different and specific breeds, isn't it? Aside from form and function? To have a sense for what is behind your dog, so-to-speak? Otherwise, what would be the point of keeping a pedigree?
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Old 08-02-2014, 03:50 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carriana View Post
lineage: lineal descent from an ancestor; ancestry or pedigree.

A dog without a known pedigree is, by definition, a dog of undetermined lineage. Bear in mind that we all have an ancestry, but not every bit of it is known. That's the whole point of different and specific breeds, isn't it? Aside from form and function? To have a sense for what is behind your dog, so-to-speak? Otherwise, what would be the point of keeping a pedigree?
A dog can certainly be purebred and not have a pedigree! There are people that have ASTs from me that didn't register them. They are mutts? According to your perspective, they would be, I understand. I get it. The owners can't do stuff with them that they could with a registered dog, but they are still purebreds.

Two known purebreds are bred together. The pups have a pedigree of sorts, they have a lineage -- we know the names of the ancestors. They are still mutts aren't they?

A mutt is a mixed breed dog, that's the common usage people know. It has an unknown "lineage" because we don't know the lineage of BREEDS in that mutt!
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Old 08-02-2014, 05:03 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carla Restivo View Post
A dog can certainly be purebred and not have a pedigree! There are people that have ASTs from me that didn't register them. They are mutts? According to your perspective, they would be, I understand. I get it. The owners can't do stuff with them that they could with a registered dog, but they are still purebreds.
You seem to be equating pedigree with a piece of paper, a registration. Every dog has a pedigree, but whether or not the pedigree is known is the point of issue, not whether it has a piece of paper stating that pedigree. In your example that dog has a known history of pure bred ancestry, therefor it would still be considered a purebred dog with or without being registered.

Now, if that dog were to wander out of its yard, get picked up by AC and somehow wind up being adopted out of a shelter, the shelter workers, new owners and anyone else coming in contact with that dog would not know its ancestry and so to them, the dog would be a dog of unknown lineage, or a mutt in that sense of the word. Not to say it would be a mix, but a mutt in a different sense, the sense of the unknown part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carla Restivo View Post
Two known purebreds are bred together. The pups have a pedigree of sorts, they have a lineage -- we know the names of the ancestors. They are still mutts aren't they?
In this example those dogs would be mutts in the other definition, yes; mutts according to your understanding of the word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carla Restivo View Post
A mutt is a mixed breed dog, that's the common usage people know. It has an unknown "lineage" because we don't know the lineage of BREEDS in that mutt!
You seem to have a hard time grasping that a word can have more than one meaning. I'm not going to go on and on trying to explain to you what has already been covered, in depth. You can continue to cherry pick posts and twist people's words around but you can't turn what they meant into how you prefer to understand something.

I'm done beating this dead horse.
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Old 08-02-2014, 05:31 AM   #26 (permalink)
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We most certainly do get pictures of almost all known dog attacks. Public records. In 2010 there were 33 fatalities. 30 were identified as pit bills by their owners or law enforcement. Once investigated and lineage was determined by multiple factors only three of the 30 dogs reported as pit bulls were in fact American pit bull terriers. Not one news story corrected their report.

All dogs are mutts unless otherwise proven. I don't go around asking and I don't care about a dogs lineage when I meet dogs on the street or find myself standing next to one. I also don't ask people what Breed their dogs are because I do not care. I haven't made it up. You can not agree with it I guess but you can't argue it's not true or advocate that it's ok to call a unknown dog a specific breed on this forum.





And no I don't think with the right owner a sight hound would be more dangerous than a pit bull. All dogs can have issues all dogs can bite. The bite of an apbt is not the hardest bite of all dogs. But even the Rottweiler gets a bad rap as well. My point is a dog is a dog is a dog and every dog is not good for every person. Problem dogs of any breed need to be in the hands of someone that can read their body language and understand dog behavior. It's not a breed issue to me. It's not a pit bull issue. Breedism is discriminating against a dog based off breed. Canines are considered a race in science but somehow racism seems incorrect to some hence breedism.

As you can see coach and I don't always agree but we don't get our panties bunched. We discuss and maybe agree or respectfully disagree. I see chihuahua label on tons of dogs that probably dont have chihuahua in them. Same with grey hounds and whippets. GSD and Mals. Tons of breeds can resemble other breeds especially when there is another breed involved in the equation. Sometimes mixes look like a combo or favor one breed or another. Shelter dogs it's a crap shoot.

And maybe some people are better than others at it. Or maybe they just think they are. I'll leave you with this. Lake view Ohio instituted a ban and required veterinary proof of breed. The dog was adopted as a boxer x lab. The town said it was a pit bull, get a vets opinion. The vet said bull dog. The town said get another opinion. The next one said bull mastiff x GSD. The town after 5 vets with 5 opinions then made them get a DNA test. It came back border collie x boxer. The town said they must have used a different dogs DNA. eventually the owners won triple damages and got to keep their dog in a court of law. You (and they) feel it is so easy to know what a dog is by appearance and that is what is killing dogs in shelters. Assuming behavior is based off appearance for dogs you have no idea about isn't cool.


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Old 08-02-2014, 12:58 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Good post Ames!
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Old 08-02-2014, 06:05 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Dear lord, reading this thread gave me a serious headache. Nice post Coach, Ames and Carriana. Okay Taking a deep breath. And I know I am going to be repeating a few things, but I want to add my .02 cents. So please bare with me.

Carla, at one point in my life, I thought just like you. I thought you could tell a pit bull from other bull dogs... or breeds at that just by looking at them. I was an arrogant little hussy too. But, I shut up and learned from those how knew more then I. See when you start seeing labs being called pit bulls, you start to question how cognitive some people are.

A pit bull is an American Pit Bull Terrier, which cannot be determined with out a pedigree. Why? Because they come in many sizes, colors, and shapes depending on the breeder and their vision on the breed.

(The following photo is from Tatonka Kennels)


^^^ That bitch I have see in person. She is a small dog. She is also pure bred APBT and does look like a staffy, as Coach stated, there ARE some APBTs that DO look like staffies.

The reason? Because at one point in time the Staffordshire Terrier, the APBT and the American Staffordshire Terrier where all one dog. They all had the same genetic make up. Then you started getting people who bred their dogs for different reasons and then started giving their results different breed names. Though now they are three different breeds, it is VERY possible to breed two pure bred any of these three dogs and get one that looks like one from another breed. I have seen Amstaff looking APBTs (mostly AKC), I have seen Staffy looking APBTs and I have seen athletic looking APBTs (ADBA).

And then we have my beloved Apollo, who came from the same yard as that dog (btw her name is Karma).



I have had SO many people ask if he is a boxer mix OR if he has hound in him. I've actually gotten to where I just call him a mutt around here, and here is why. Theft. There are people in my area that will steal your dog in a heartbeat if they found out it is a pure bred pit dog. Regardless to if you have papers or not. And they don't care who you are either. My Uncle in Law is a constable in my area. He owns a Pit bull type dog. Well some thugs went on to his property and stole the dog. Yes he got the dog back, but my point.

Then you have BSL. There are so many people in my area that are scared of pit bulls because of the media. Who I don't believe should be reporting dog bites to begin with... Its nice to see a kid ask to pet my dog and their parents are okay with it, when you leave the word "Pit Bull" out. I tend to call him a terrier mix or something in public. Not a pit bull. I want a positive association, however, saying pit bull puts a nasty taste in a lot of peoples mouths.

I take it, you have never owned a pure bred dog. And until you do and realize how many times your pedigreed dog gets mistaken for a mixed breed dog because NO ONE knows what they are suppose to look like, then you will see why we call dogs with out a pedigree a mutt or mix. Please take the time to educate yourself in the matter of why the word mutt is better then the word pit bull. Learn that because everyone and their Aunt and Uncle thinks they own a legit pit bull, is why this breed is in so much danger.

I really hope this makes sense. You guys are welcome to pick apart the parts that don't. I am half asleep.
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Old 08-03-2014, 12:07 AM   #29 (permalink)
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What breeds of dog are these?








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Old 08-03-2014, 03:59 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I just saw one that could confuse many as. A women in a group I'm in posted her pup.

Can't wait to find out what the other pups posted are. As soon as Carla has had a chance post.

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