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Old 08-01-2014, 10:59 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Rescues, shelters and "breeds"

Since the consensus here is that any dog which is not registered or doesn't have a pedigree cannot be a member of any breed -- even if say, it looks VERY much or identical TO say, the "breed" that gets called Greyhound, is the notion of "breed" antiquated and past it's usefulness?

Since I hear here many times in dead seriousness that you can't tell breed on appearance, should rescues not make distinctions between dogs (based on appearance) when they determine what dogs they are going to take in? Should there just be "rescues" and not Border Collie rescue or Chihuahua rescue, since none of those dogs CANNOT be a breed?

Because I hear it said here all the time (again in much seriousness) that all dogs in rescue are just mutts because you don't know their background and pedigree.

Is the notion of breed antiquated? If a breed cannot be recognized based on appearance (knowing the obvious that not all reps of a breed are perfect reps of that breed), why HAVE breeds?
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Old 08-01-2014, 11:28 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I think you don't grasp the concept of mutt meaning unknown and get to caught up on it meaning a mix of breeds.A mutt could be a pure bred dog, you just don't know his lineage. And no, I don't like breed specific rescues. That's just my opinion. It's breedism. We had a dog that might have been a lab/new foundland and neither lab or Newfie rescues would touch him because he didn't look like a lab or a Newfie. That's just messed up. Judging a dog is worthy of getting help by a breed specific rescue based off what someone thinks the dog might be. Nothing about what's his behavior. Does he like to swim? Does he retrieve? Oh both breeds have those traits so you can decode Breed based off that alone. And What does it matter? It's a dog. People can rescue and help what they want that's on them. At least they are trying and I applause any rescue for that.

Multiple pure breed dogs don't always have the traits of their breed and multiple might. Most traits are not isolated an when you read descriptions they typically overlap. Who cares as long as each dog is managed responsibly?


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Old 08-01-2014, 11:40 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I have said this before and I will say it again. BULL BREEDS are very different from other breeds of dogs!!!!! The dogs that the shelters take in should simply call them bull breed mix or something along those lines. There are MANY breeds and crosses of breeds that make up the term bull breed, or as the media puts it -pitbulls. When it comes to BULL BREED dogs you can not tell for sure what breed or breeds that dog could be.

Other dog breeds don't have this problem. You can pretty much tell a dachshund is a dachshund..or it is a doxie mix. You can tell a German Shepherd is a German Shepherd, a husky is a husky...a Bassett is a Bassett and then the collie breeds like border collies and Aussies when crossed do look like some sort of collie mix-- still within the "collie" type. There are several types of shepherds but still under the "shepherd" look and people will call it a "shepherd mix"

There are not TONS of DIFFERENT breeds that look like dachshunds or Shepherds! These breeds also do not face the issues that bull breeds do. It's a real shame for say...true APBTs and Amstaffs to get lumped into the BSL when say, a Corso mix attacks someone but the dog is called a pitbull. You don't hear about "poodles" attack and killing people. It's the "pitbulls" -- which are NOT true APBTs or AmStaffs. I'd like to see the peds of these so called "pitbulls" biting people. They don't have peds, they are poorly bred crosses of HA dogs. APBTs and Amstaffs are not typically HA, but the masstiff breeds ARE.

The bottom line is, other breeds are not facing the issues we have. It's not fair that my people loving dogs should be feared because people don't know what a true pit bull is. AND the other bottom line is...is that bull breeds (called pitbulls) refer to many different breeds of dogs, some of which breeds are guardian breeds.

I also do not like "breed specific" rescues. I like ones like "big fluffy dog rescue" "bull breed rescue" "tiny paws rescue" etc.
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Old 08-01-2014, 11:52 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I think you don't grasp the concept of mutt meaning unknown and get too caught up on it meaning a mix of breeds.A mutt could be a pure bred dog, you just don't know his lineage.
I don't quite agree with that. I've always seen it used to describe a mixed-breed dog, especially one that you can't see any particular breed in the mix. It doesn't mean that you don't know his pedigree!

According to your definition, I could be standing next to some rescue Greyhound that looked exactly like the show dogs in the ring or on the track and I'd have to call it a mutt because he didn't have a pedigree fastened to his butt! Really?

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It's breedism.
So, you believe that people shouldn't have a preference for how a dog looks? Is that what you mean by "breedism"?

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Originally Posted by ames View Post
Multiple pure breed dogs don't always have the traits of their breed and multiple might. Most traits are not isolated an when you read descriptions they typically overlap. Who cares as long as each dog is managed responsibly?
I think knowing the general traits of different breeds is a good place to start in educating someone and properly placing a dog. For example, a Pit Bull can be very shy and still be a pedigreed dog and look and act like a Pit Bull. In order to know that shyness can be dealt with in some dogs and is downright dangerous in others, you have to know what you are looking at. I suppose I am a "breedist" and I will discriminate that the shyness is incorrect and may be downright dangerous in a Pit Bull, but just might be acceptable/more manageable in a sighthound.

So, yes, I have a certain amount of breedism I suppose and I discriminate all the time!
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Old 08-01-2014, 11:53 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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I think that the reason many people on here, including myself, refer to bully-type dogs of unknown lineage as mutts is so that not all dogs with muscles and a big head are called a Pit Bull, even by their owners. The general public would be shocked to see what a true Pit Bull looks like. They consider anything and everything vicious to be a Pit Bull, so those who know better simply try and educate when we can that technically, they aren't Pit Bulls, they're mutts. How many of the dog attacks that you see in the media come from registered APBTs? I'd guess almost none. That's why I think the distinction is important. With a dog of unknown lineage temperament will always be more of a gamble.

See, the issue is that someone that labels a dog as a Lab isn't giving that dog a negative stereotype. But if someone labeled the same dog as a Pit Bull, the dog would automatically receive much different treatment by many people.

So I understand that most people DON'T understand what a Pit Bull is, and they consider the term to be much more vague than I do. While I'm not going to tear someone's head off or demonize an entire organization for using the term, I will try and individually educate each person that I hear using it. I make a point when people ask me what breed my dog is, or if she's a Pit Bull, to tell them yes, the general public would consider her a Pit Bull, but in reality I have no idea what breeds she has in her. That usually sparks a conversation that allows me to explain further.
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Old 08-02-2014, 12:06 AM   #6 (permalink)
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A purebred greyhound without a ped doesn't have very many other breeds that it could possibly be, bull breeds do!!!! With some breeds you CAN tell if they are purebred, with bull breeds you can NOT. That is my opinion.
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Old 08-02-2014, 12:09 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ::::COACH:::: View Post
I have said this before and I will say it again. BULL BREEDS are very different from other breeds of dogs!!!!! The dogs that the shelters take in should simply call them bull breed mix or something along those lines.
You can't tell the difference between an APBT and SBT most of the time? Or a BT and an APBT or SBT or AST? Or between a Boston and the others?

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Originally Posted by ::::COACH:::: View Post
There are MANY breeds and crosses of breeds that make up the term bull breed, or as the media puts it -pitbulls. When it comes to BULL BREED dogs you can not tell for sure what breed or breeds that dog could be.
What's wrong with determining what the cross might be (best guess) and go from there? What harm would that do?


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The bottom line is, other breeds are not facing the issues we have.
True, but are we doing ourselves any favors by demanding that our dogs have special favors? ("There are no Pit Bulls in rescue"). By firmly demanding that the dog that looks pretty much like your dogs, Coach, is NOT a Pit Bull? (How stupid does that make us look? Like we don't know squat about dogs is what it makes us look like!)

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I also do not like "breed specific" rescues. I like ones like "big fluffy dog rescue" "bull breed rescue" "tiny paws rescue" etc.
Again, people are people. They want a certain look. They want a certain behavior. Rescues HAVE to limit themselves (good ones anyway). I see nothing wrong with discriminating and becoming a rescue well-known for good representatives of a specific breed.
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Old 08-02-2014, 12:21 AM   #8 (permalink)
 
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A purebred greyhound without a ped doesn't have very many other breeds that it could possibly be, bull breeds do!!!! With some breeds you CAN tell if they are purebred, with bull breeds you can NOT. That is my opinion.

Yep, this.

And Carla, in regards to being able to tell different bully breeds apart, sure, when they're purebred! And even then, the general public still wouldn't. Most don't even know there ARE different kinds.

When they're mixed, it's basically impossible. Sometimes they present on trait or another that easily identifiable, but for the most part you'd never be able to guess exactly what goes in to them. My friend has a 60lbs what appears to be COMPLETELY purebred Amstaff, but she has tons of Mastiff in her! She took the physical appearance of an Amstaff, but she's not purebred at all. Understand what I'm saying?
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Old 08-02-2014, 12:29 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BCdogs View Post
I think that the reason many people on here, including myself, refer to bully-type dogs of unknown lineage as mutts is so that not all dogs with muscles and a big head are called a Pit Bull, even by their owners.

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Originally Posted by BCdogs View Post
The general public would be shocked to see what a true Pit Bull looks like.


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Originally Posted by BCdogs View Post
They consider anything and everything vicious to be a Pit Bull, so those who know better simply try and educate when we can that technically, they aren't Pit Bulls, they're mutts.
Man, it just seem you're all mighty worried about what others think and instead of being steady and dealing with truths, you are going to hide behind "mutts" and "there are no Pit Bulls in rescue".


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How many of the dog attacks that you see in the media come from registered APBTs? I'd guess almost none.
I honestly don't know. We rarely get pictures of the dogs involved or any registration history. I wish we did. IF we were ever to find out that none of the dogs were registered, but looked very very much like say, Coach's dogs, would you still say, "There is no problem with Pit Bulls"?

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See, the issue is that someone that labels a dog as a Lab isn't giving that dog a negative stereotype. But if someone labeled the same dog as a Pit Bull, the dog would automatically receive much different treatment by many people.
The problem is the someone that labels the dog incorrectly.

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So I understand that most people DON'T understand what a Pit Bull is, and they consider the term to be much more vague than I do. .
So, let's get the truth out there; and not hide behind "mutt". That just teaches them more vagueness!
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Old 08-02-2014, 12:37 AM   #10 (permalink)
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And Carla, in regards to being able to tell different bully breeds apart, sure, when they're purebred! And even then, the general public still wouldn't. Most don't even know there ARE different kinds.
So, let's just give in and state (vaguely) they are all mutts? Instead of teaching and in our conversations here, talking about the similarities and differences; that if you did have an APBT/SBT mix, it would probably look an awful lot like a small APBT; and since as breeds, their temperaments are similar, so this is what you can expect?

I guess not....nothing to see here but mutts...move along...
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Old 08-02-2014, 12:38 AM   #11 (permalink)
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You can't tell the difference between an APBT and SBT most of the time? Or a BT and an APBT or SBT or AST? Or between a Boston and the others?

Nope I can not. APBTs have so many bloodlines and different looks. I have seen plenty of true gamebred dogs that were no joke smaller than a Staffy bull with the same build, I've seen plenty that looked like AMstaffs, etc. Bull breed (or pitbull as the media calls them) also refers to many of the mastiff breeds like American Bulldog, Corso, dogo etc. and when those breeds are crossed with say a APBT or Ambully they look like Large versions of Amstaffs with wrinkles lol


What's wrong with determining what the cross might be (best guess) and go from there? What harm would that do?

There is no harm in saying "bull breed mix"-- but like I said to say that dog is a Staffy bull simply because it LOOKs like one isn't right for the breed because of the awful issues we face with BSL. It could be a APBT/Boston cross but yet it's labeled wrong. I have a friend that has a Jack Russell/olde English bulldoge and that thing looks very much like a Staffy bull cross! But it is not. What if this dog bit someone? Without a doubt, it would be labeled a "pitbull"


True, but are we doing ourselves any favors by demanding that our dogs have special favors? ("There are no Pit Bulls in rescue"). By firmly demanding that the dog that looks pretty much like your dogs, Coach, is NOT a Pit Bull? (How stupid does that make us look? Like we don't know squat about dogs is what it makes us look like!)

If some shelter had a dog that looked just like Pyra I'd assume "bull breed mix" --what is wrong with calling these unknown dogs what they are --bull breeds? Because there are so many that make up the term like I already said and BCdogs talked about. Actually people don't even think Pyra is full "pit" half the time because they think fat short dogs are "pits"

Again, people are people. They want a certain look. They want a certain behavior. Rescues HAVE to limit themselves (good ones anyway). I see nothing wrong with discriminating and becoming a rescue well-known for good representatives of a specific breed.
You feel that you can tell what breed a bull breed dog is my looking at it? I'd love to play a game with you then since you can tell.
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Old 08-02-2014, 12:39 AM   #12 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Carla Restivo View Post
Man, it just seem you're all mighty worried about what others think and instead of being steady and dealing with truths, you are going to hide behind "mutts" and "there are no Pit Bulls in rescue".

I honestly don't know. We rarely get pictures of the dogs involved or any registration history. I wish we did. IF we were ever to find out that none of the dogs were registered, but looked very very much like say, Coach's dogs, would you still say, "There is no problem with Pit Bulls"?

The problem is the someone that labels the dog incorrectly.

So, let's get the truth out there; and not hide behind "mutt". That just teaches them more vagueness!
We're not hiding behind anything. I just don't consider every shelter dog with a big head a Pit Bull. I'd say there are tons of BULLY-type dogs in rescue and very little true Pit Bulls.

In regards to your hypothetical question, none would be true Pit Bulls. I would still consider them dogs of unknown lineage which, again, brings a much higher chance of having an unpredictable adult temperament.

That's exactly what we're saying....

I still say it's better to refer to them as a mutt than a Pit Bull. The term Pit Bull has become as vague as it gets nowadays anyway, so the only difference is it doesn't pin every aggression issue on a specific breed.
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Old 08-02-2014, 12:49 AM   #13 (permalink)
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In regards to your hypothetical question, none would be true Pit Bulls.
What is a "true" Pit Bull?

(I've seen it used a few different ways, so that's why I'm asking).
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Old 08-02-2014, 12:51 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I don't often use the term mutt...I use "bull breed mix" because that gives folks enough of an idea of the kind of dog it is and what temperament to expect. Though bull breed covers a vast number of breeds and crosses of breeds. They just have to hope they don't get a APBT/Mastiff cross...a dog that has the drive and will power of the APBT but the HA of the mastiff is a very dangerous cross.
I love all dogs I really do, but these dangerous dogs that do attack people do not need to be labeled a specific breed that they are not because the owners have no idea how the dog is bred.

A true pit bull is the American Pit Bull Terrier.
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Old 08-02-2014, 12:58 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ::::COACH:::: View Post
I don't often use the term mutt...I use "bull breed mix" because that gives folks enough of an idea of the kind of dog it is and what temperament to expect.
I actually don't have too much of a problem with "bull breed" mix either. Although I think often they do look enough like a Pit Bull to be called one! (And I don't consider a Mastiff as a bull-breed; Bull Mastiff would be).
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