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Old 03-31-2016, 08:42 PM   #16 (permalink)
 

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Originally Posted by rjhirdes View Post
No i dont think that and am not irresponsible but i came her for advice and and what to do not a long hate column

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And I have given advice in both of my above postings with no hate in my words.

I have not seen you acknowledge the advice, but you pointed out Goemon's harshness.

Being somewhere across the internet from you, I can only deduce that my advice will not be considered, and that you are looking for some magic wand to wave.

There is no easy fix here. There is no training the fight out of the dogs, there is only management of the situation, which is separation (crate and rotate) or downsize the families dog count in which ever way suits you best.
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Old 03-31-2016, 09:54 PM   #17 (permalink)
 

rjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scale
rjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scale
I acknowledged the advice and started to crate and rotate today thank you everyone just stessful hearing someone telling you to put your dog down or get rid of her sorry

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Old 04-01-2016, 02:17 AM   #18 (permalink)
 
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I know some of the comments here seem harsh, but these people love this breed and don't want to see another story in the headlines.

I would be hesitant to have two female pitbulls who are fighting, not to mention a deaf one, around my small child. Not because I believe this breed is dangerous, but because of what could happen if she was in the middle of one of their scuffles.

I love animals and I love the under dog, but I realize not every one should be kept as a family pet.

I hope I that you are able to find a solution that keeps everyone safe. Stick around this forum if you are open to learning. I have learned a lot here.
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Old 04-01-2016, 04:54 AM   #19 (permalink)
 
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Ok

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rjhirdes, take heed of the message not how the message is delivered. These folks know what they are talking about. I just visited the emergency room with an injury to my right hand from two dogs fighting. My hand has stitches and is majorly scarred and I am in a lot of pain. You do not want this for your child.
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Old 04-01-2016, 02:31 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Help! Two female pits wont stop fighting

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjhirdes View Post
Shes never alone with them and kobe is a happy dog that loves people and lived with 4 other dogs its just paisley she has a problem with



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Sometimes I don't like everyone I hang out with all the time either. Sometimes you grow apart sometimes a dog just don't like another dog. Find a good trainer to work with you to mange them or start rotating. Dogs can live long wonderful lives without ever interacting with another dog. If the issue is just around food or toys then stop having free food or toys. Your daughter should be kept away from them while they or she eats. Separated when given toys it's very manageable you just need to be diligent and give them their space when toys and food are involved and get some help from an experienced trainer to work on it.

When you say brain damage what do you mean? Did he get into an accident that caused a traumatic brain injury? How was the "brain damage" diagnosed? Just because a dog is deaf doesn't mean they have brain damage.
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Last edited by ames; 04-01-2016 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 04-01-2016, 02:53 PM   #21 (permalink)
 

rjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scale
rjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scale
Thanks for the reply, and she has brain damage diagnosed by 2 vets and they figure from inbreeding

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Old 04-01-2016, 10:06 PM   #22 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by rjhirdes View Post
Thanks for the reply, and she has brain damage diagnosed by 2 vets and they figure from inbreeding

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That is not true. "Inbreeding", known in the breeder world as line breeding, does not produce defects.

Vets do not know as much as people may think. Having known life long breeders of bloodlines, some created and built from just three different dogs, over 40 years ago, are still alive and breeding today. Tight line breeding.

My current dogs have been tight line bred for over 20 years and I will never outcross them with any other blood.
Breeding a family line of dogs keeps the genetics in a "closed circle." As a breeder the job is to eliminate any faults through selective breeding and culling.

When faults such as deafness occur, it is hereditary, from dogs being bred with genetic faults. Back yard breeding by novices who only breed for money and sell by taking advantage of people's love for puppies, are the cause of these hereditary faults in dogs.
Concerning ApBT's, the major health problems come from the all white dogs and blue dogs most of all, although I have never considered the blues to be ApBT's, as they were never pit dogs.

Although you may have thought my earlier posts were harsh, it was truly for the safety of your daughter, and for the good of the dog.
Can you really afford to pay for special training of a deaf dog?

I responded so harshly due to memories of people who ignore warnings and then an innocent victim has to suffer for it.

I've never had to deal with a deaf dog, or one with brain damage, but I have seen and heard of drastic results of inexperienced people having dogs like these.

If I had a litter of pups that had a deaf one or another serious fault, I would cull it, to save it from a life of suffering, and to prevent this fault from ever being passed on.
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Last edited by Goemon; 04-01-2016 at 11:21 PM.
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Old 04-02-2016, 01:39 AM   #23 (permalink)
 

rjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scale
rjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scale
She runs in a circles literally almost all day and i trained her she sits stays lay paw and release

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Old 04-03-2016, 03:17 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Help! Two female pits wont stop fighting

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Originally Posted by rjhirdes View Post
Thanks for the reply, and she has brain damage diagnosed by 2 vets and they figure from inbreeding

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Still seems a bit weird IMO. What testing was done by the two vets to determine this? Brain damage is not something you look at and confirm. Also every dog breed was created by inbreeding. Inbreeding and line breeding is used all the time by breeders. I'm not saying it not possible I am just wondering if maybe the dog has OCD or anxiety or some other brain disorder that is treatable. Wait she is deaf? I missed that. Even being deaf doesn't mean she has brain damage. Just trying to understand.
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Last edited by ames; 04-03-2016 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 04-03-2016, 04:06 PM   #25 (permalink)
 

rjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scale
rjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scalerjhirdes is off the scale
I know that but just looking at her you can just tell she looks lost sometimes

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Old 09-03-2017, 08:17 AM   #26 (permalink)
 

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Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
That is not true. "Inbreeding", known in the breeder world as line breeding, does not produce defects.

Vets do not know as much as people may think. Having known life long breeders of bloodlines, some created and built from just three different dogs, over 40 years ago, are still alive and breeding today. Tight line breeding.
I know I am necroposting. But just have to respond so this doesn't stand unchallenged. It is false! Inbreeding is associated with health defects. Especially defects that are hard to detect, or that shows up after a dog is old enough to be bred on. If you have inbred a line with no genetic defects, then, yes, you will get less defects. But as a general rule, inbreeding does increase genetic defects in some respects. Cheetahs (the cat) are really, really inbred. They had a severe bottle neck somewhere in history. But that purified the species, though it reduced variation greatly and caused them to be vulnerable to environmental changes. Dog aggression is due to inbreeding. By some, the process of inbreeding to spread DA is seen as purification, to others, who want the dogs in a family setting, it is often seen as defect. Deafness is commonly caused by inbreeding. And other cognitive defects too. And defects of the heart, hip etc. So, please, stop spewing bs just because you inbred with no poor outcomes. Inbreeding is the very way you breed dogs, but excessive inbreeding, or inbreeding of wrong lines, will cause issues. Vets do know what they are talking about, since they have often read biological courses on zoology, population genetics etc. Backyard breeders and other people know by "hear-say" or anecdote, often. So stop undermining professional opinion just because YOU haven't had THAT issue pop up in YOUR kennel.

Anyways, love this forum. And sorry for necro-posting
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Old 09-03-2017, 11:42 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Petbawler View Post
I know I am necroposting. But just have to respond so this doesn't stand unchallenged. It is false! Inbreeding is associated with health defects. Especially defects that are hard to detect, or that shows up after a dog is old enough to be bred on. If you have inbred a line with no genetic defects, then, yes, you will get less defects. But as a general rule, inbreeding does increase genetic defects in some respects. Cheetahs (the cat) are really, really inbred. They had a severe bottle neck somewhere in history. But that purified the species, though it reduced variation greatly and caused them to be vulnerable to environmental changes. Dog aggression is due to inbreeding. By some, the process of inbreeding to spread DA is seen as purification, to others, who want the dogs in a family setting, it is often seen as defect. Deafness is commonly caused by inbreeding. And other cognitive defects too. And defects of the heart, hip etc. So, please, stop spewing bs just because you inbred with no poor outcomes. Inbreeding is the very way you breed dogs, but excessive inbreeding, or inbreeding of wrong lines, will cause issues. Vets do know what they are talking about, since they have often read biological courses on zoology, population genetics etc. Backyard breeders and other people know by "hear-say" or anecdote, often. So stop undermining professional opinion just because YOU haven't had THAT issue pop up in YOUR kennel.

Anyways, love this forum. And sorry for necro-posting
I'm sorry Petbawler, but you're the one who is actually wrong here. True breeders inbreed and line breed all the time, especially in some lines like my favorite the OFRN. True breeders cull their lines and litters to be rid of defects and have been very successful doing so.

The biggest thing I want to address is where you state 'dog aggression is a result of inbreeding' - this could NOT be further from the truth, especially in bulldogs. If you know anything about the breeds, you know they were originally for dog fighting and bred to bait bulls and then each other in the 'pits' hence the name "American Pit Bull Terrier" - the only TRUE 'pit bull'. DA is in their genes from their creation and cannot be bred out, even through outcrossing with other lines/breeds. It just is.

As for vets, yes they do know a lot and I trust my vet with everything; however, they don't know everything. I love my vet and trust him but when Kaos and Nala started to knuckle, he told me it was a genetic fault and could not be fixed. I found the recipe to fix the knuckling on THIS SITE and guess what? Both dogs now have nice and straight legs. My vet was wrong and when he asked me how their legs straightened, I actually taught him something I learned here. Vets are people too; some are better than others and they make mistakes; nor do they know everything.

Your last comment, defending BYB, leads me to believe that you may be a BYB yourself. I hope not, but if so, you won't find much support here for the practices of BYB's.

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Old 09-03-2017, 12:03 PM   #28 (permalink)
 

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I'm sorry Petbawler, but you're the one who is actually wrong here. True breeders inbreed and line breed all the time, especially in some lines like my favorite the OFRN. True breeders cull their lines and litters to be rid of defects and have been very successful doing so.

The biggest thing I want to address is where you state 'dog aggression is a result of inbreeding' - this could NOT be further from the truth, especially in bulldogs. If you know anything about the breeds, you know they were originally for dog fighting and bred to bait bulls and then each other in the 'pits' hence the name "American Pit Bull Terrier" - the only TRUE 'pit bull'. DA is in their genes from their creation and cannot be bred out, even through outcrossing with other lines/breeds. It just is.

As for vets, yes they do know a lot and I trust my vet with everything; however, they don't know everything. I love my vet and trust him but when Kaos and Nala started to knuckle, he told me it was a genetic fault and could not be fixed. I found the recipe to fix the knuckling on THIS SITE and guess what? Both dogs now have nice and straight legs. My vet was wrong and when he asked me how their legs straightened, I actually taught him something I learned here. Vets are people too; some are better than others and they make mistakes; nor do they know everything.

Your last comment, defending BYB, leads me to believe that you may be a BYB yourself. I hope not, but if so, you won't find much support here for the practices of BYB's.

~Jess
You are not contradicting what I stated. I didn't say that inbreeding leads to breeding on bad dogs, I am saying that inbreeding produces a higher percentage of recessive genetic flaws. Which is obvious. I am also not saying that all inbreeding increases this. All breeds are created from inbreeding, and inbreeding comes in degrees. All dogs have higher degrees of genetic flaws than, say, wolfes. Mastiff dogs have hip problems etc. Culling is the code word. Even if only 1 in 10 puppies need to be culled for genetic flaws, the one that got culled had flaws from inbreeding. And the vet told the poster that her dog had genetically induced neurological disease. If the genetics determining these issues are recessive and rare, then, usually, they are the product of breeding on related dogs caring those genes. And since, in the dog breeding world, dogs are inbred to stabilize production of selected traits, the most natural explanation is that two dogs from the same bloodline both ended up carying a recessive gene that, by breeding them, produced a flawed litter. If the breeder is good, he/she will cull the offspring and cross out the dog with the recessive gene with a line not carrying it. But we are not disagreeing, I think. I just wanted to point out that it is false that inbreeding blood carrying recessive traits that are disabilities won't produce disabled offspring. The VET is the professional that diagnosed the condition, and hence the VET should know better than you whether or not the condition is heriditary, and whether or not it is rare and requires inbreeding to show up. And 2 vets concluded that the disorder was a recessive genetical disorder, and there is no reason to defect from that professional opinion on account of anecdotes about succesful inbreeding (which even the vets will know about, since, du-uh, hehe).

Anyways, no hard feelings. I think we agree actually.

Edit: And sure, the vet might rightly conclude that some issue is genetical, and wrongly determine that nothing can be done. Usually a vet (and any other) will go "I don't know of a clinical solution, hence it can't be fixed". Deafness can be fixed by state of the art procedures in humans. So technically, it could probably be done on dogs. But it is not done. So the vet will go "you can't fix it, it is genetical disease". But if you were a crazy scientist, you could in fact fix it. But when it comes to the doagnostics of a disorder, you have no justification for rejecting a professional opinion. When you do, you will need another professional opinion to rest on. So, yeah, here 2 vets gave a diagnosis and agreed, and both found an explanation that is plausible. But hey, MAYBE it WASN'T do to inbreeding. Maybe 2 dogs from resonably distant lines both carried the genetic markor. But: Most likely not!

Last edited by Petbawler; 09-03-2017 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 09-03-2017, 12:59 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Thanks for the clarification! I do think we agree in most respects, now that I understand better where you were coming from.

I thoroughly enjoy constructive conversation, even conversations where people disagree but do it respectfully and constructively like adults. So certainly no hard feelings and hope I didn't make it seem like there were!

I just can't stand the drama and people looking for someone to wave a magic wand to "fix" their problems or people to only tell them what they want to hear. That's not how to operate, especially when dealing with strong-willed, physically capable dogs. We all adore the bulldogs here, but they are certainly not the breed for everyone. No breed is a perfect fit for everyone.

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Old 09-03-2017, 01:32 PM   #30 (permalink)
 

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Don't worry. I am really not sensitive. I know that people often interpret forum conversations in the most negative tone possible, so just wanted to make sure you knew I was taking it all as friendly discussion - which you did

And yes, the very value of discussion (and thus discussion boards like this) is constructive dialogue. I know, personally, I always get itchy when I see a discussion where I have some cents to add. So I love dialogue and can handle high tides, haha.

As for magic wands - very true, very true. It is all about (1) realistic assesment of the underlying "mechanics" of a given issue, (2) assessment of the costs of leaving it be, (3) the costs of fixing (if possible) and (4) whether the costs of leaving it be outweighs the costs of doing the work needed to fix it. And then of course (5) what size of hazard the issue poses and to who (the dog? The owner? Other dogs? Other people? All of them? etc.) and deciding if that hazard is bearable to you & others, and how much it can be influenced by realistic measures. Most often, magical fixes aren't available. For a strong breed with the traits as a pitbull, realistic risk assessment and evaluation of the space of solutions is crucial for the wellbeing of everybody involved - as well as for the population in which you live AND the population of dogs known as "the breed". Critical discussion is very much at the heart of this, since knowledge resides across individuals and is transmitted via talking to each other. And only critical examination allows us to discriminate between sound and wrong judgments. So LONG LIVE CONSTRUCTIVE AND HONEST DISAGREEMENT It is the BOMB! Haha

Anyways, thank you for the talk, much appreciated.
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