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Old 06-08-2010, 10:49 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Just because they are registered doesnt mean they are purebred you know that. paper hanging is a fun hobby for some.
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Old 06-08-2010, 10:51 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by gamer View Post
Just because they are registered doesnt mean they are purebred you know that. paper hanging is a fun hobby for some.
I litterally about fell over backward for sure....
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Old 06-09-2010, 02:26 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
Yeah I don't know what I'm talking about, my dog Hooch's dam was Bingo she was also Crenshaw Gator who I had a chance of owning myself,
Everyone had a chance at Gator when Shaw was selling him.
Jackel was off Bingo and Bliss (off Jeep and Tabby Girl sister to Tab and Rodney's dog Ch. Tramp).

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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
The closest match/twin(not exactly in paperwork but in dog) to Hooch I have ever seen was Mayday and he was a 70lbs dog when I seen him,,
I will repeat, Gr. Ch. Mayday's "Pit Weight" was 59. Not:
"(check out Mayday and Bingo were 75lb pit weight dogs)"
I know this as fact, I had $ down. I know!
He didn't want any of Harley. I also know who made Mayday a champion and grand champion and no it wasn't conditioned or handled by V.A....
I seen Bingo many times when he was at Steelfire Kennels with Yankee Greg and at Brian's in IL. Bingo's chain weight wasn't even 75 lbs besides his pit weight.
Firehazard, haven't you figured out by now how I know the things that I do?
Many things you say I can agree with but there is also information that is wrong. Information is like water, closer to the source, fresher the water.....

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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
as I seen him, and Lukane who you know the owner if you know Dave, ,
I too know V.A. owner of Mayday and J.B. of STP, hell I know what STP stands for and knew the people involved.

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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
Don't Norrod and Castillo both claim OFRN??? different lines yes~ but they claim the same OFRN
IRONLINE KENNELS HOME OF THE WORLD FAMOUS NORROD RED DEVIL STRAIN SINCE 1969

Don't know what Art claims but yes I.K. dogs are from the strain of OFRN as many other bloodlines who also carry it.
All modern combat dogs for the last 50+ years has OFRN in them including Dibo.
BTW once again that isn't Norrod website url! It is:

w w w. ironlinekennels .com

BTW it is spelled "Louis Colby" not Lewis Colby.......;->

Last edited by Tx Red Dog; 06-09-2010 at 02:32 AM.
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Old 06-09-2010, 05:01 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tx Red Dog View Post
Everyone had a chance at Gator when Shaw was selling him.
Jackel was off Bingo and Bliss (off Jeep and Tabby Girl sister to Tab and Rodney's dog Ch. Tramp).



I will repeat, Gr. Ch. Mayday's "Pit Weight" was 59. Not:
"(check out Mayday and Bingo were 75lb pit weight dogs)"
I know this as fact, I had $ down. I know!
He didn't want any of Harley. I also know who made Mayday a champion and grand champion and no it wasn't conditioned or handled by V.A....
I seen Bingo many times when he was at Steelfire Kennels with Yankee Greg and at Brian's in IL. Bingo's chain weight wasn't even 75 lbs besides his pit weight.
Firehazard, haven't you figured out by now how I know the things that I do?
Many things you say I can agree with but there is also information that is wrong. Information is like water, closer to the source, fresher the water.....



I too know V.A. owner of Mayday and J.B. of STP, hell I know what STP stands for and knew the people involved.



IRONLINE KENNELS HOME OF THE WORLD FAMOUS NORROD RED DEVIL STRAIN SINCE 1969

Don't know what Art claims but yes I.K. dogs are from the strain of OFRN as many other bloodlines who also carry it.
All modern combat dogs for the last 50+ years has OFRN in them including Dibo.
BTW once again that isn't Norrod website url! It is:

w w w. ironlinekennels .com

BTW it is spelled "Louis Colby" not Lewis Colby.......;->
First of all this thread is directed to find out why people a half whopper dog a bully..

The things you say sound like they have merit and I know you know what your saying however they also sound like the words of a drunk who doesn't have all his facts straight and has to re check his mental notes(I follow your posts), I know that Mayday had a pit weight over sixty during that little scuffle when the to gents couldnt decide on a weight that was even They also argued because it was basically the same dogs going up.. You should know of whom and when I speak, that was a big deal. A dogs pit weight isnt the same every time and YES I made a mistake the only dog mentioned that was any where near 70lb at pit weight was Jocko and Lukane, weren't they pushin 66lbs?.... I should have said "pit dogs that weighed 75lbs) Actually the purest water is filtered through all the layers of sht and earth and flows from volcanic rock, I wouldn't drink any water today from its source LOL its all full of sht. all kidding aside I was gonna go get few good dogs from Xprss back in the day then he got shut down, he and I talked for a good while, all about tilted scales and dogman politics that most people don't think about. Its a small world and the reality is you and I have brushed shoulders and didn't think nothing of it.. I just showed you the pedigrees where the chain weight was 75lbs, we all know what a chain weight dog is, it aint fat.. WE all know a conditioned dog is usually 12-15lbs lighter some instances they pushed for more because of wind or bite or whatever, for advantages and all that crap, talkn with DT was very enlightened for me, as a good part of my yellow dog knowledge comes from him. Im not far off in my thinking, some people say mayday was a 60lb dog the truth is all the above, as the life of a game dog is just like a prf boxer; weight and skills vary and wind is matched against weight thrown yadaydaydyadyada. I admited I mispoken however I stand firm that those dogs were 75lbs dogs, just not pit weight. That still changes nothing exc, big boy game dogs can straighten up a pullin dog line and add drive strenght etc.. As I was told the big game dog should be pullin as well as everything else they do, and we should still breed for game, however a big game dog sold to someone with big pullers will only IMPROVE their stock... So other than I was out of context which YES misconstrues ones perception; we have nothing to argue about..
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Old 06-09-2010, 05:05 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
First of all this thread is directed to find out why people a half whopper dog a bully..
So you want to know why people think a dog that is crossed with whopper dogs are considered a bully? Well I consider them straight mutts. No matter what breed you mix with a whopper dog its still gonna be a mutt

What does gameness have to do with pulling? It doesnt take gameness to do WP what would you gain by throwing in a game bred dog?
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Old 06-09-2010, 02:38 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Seriously... Really??? Game does not improve drive, or the sound temperment of an APBT that has not be game bred? ehh.. Large game bred dogs could have a weight title as well as others and it would clear up the blood.. Hooch could pull my 1500 85 scottdale, thats why his dad got stolen from me, showing them whopper pulling dogs up when those guys would stop by out in Nowata.. before you know there were whopper dogs coming up with jocko conformation.. your paper ringing coment hits home with me, because if you and tx are as smart as you seem then you can spot a rung dog, so I will honor your opinions because at this point anything is possible and I can think of Tudors, Carver, Eli, Boudreaux, Crenshaw, Redboy, rung dogs or dog rung with those papers rather
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Old 06-09-2010, 04:34 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
Seriously... Really??? Game does not improve drive, or the sound temperment of an APBT that has not be game bred? ehh.. Large game bred dogs could have a weight title as well as others and it would clear up the blood.. Hooch could pull my 1500 85 scottdale, thats why his dad got stolen from me, showing them whopper pulling dogs up when those guys would stop by out in Nowata.. before you know there were whopper dogs coming up with jocko conformation.. your paper ringing coment hits home with me, because if you and tx are as smart as you seem then you can spot a rung dog, so I will honor your opinions because at this point anything is possible and I can think of Tudors, Carver, Eli, Boudreaux, Crenshaw, Redboy, rung dogs or dog rung with those papers rather
Drive and gameness are two way different things, you can breed two dogs with great drive and two game dogs and look at those litters and I bet ya the drive litter has produced more drivey dogs then the game dogs produced game dogs. So in short no I dont think gameness will improve drive they are different Breeding for gameness was (talking historically since game testing is a no go anymore in the US) very difficult to breed for and was a crap shoot many times. Which I know you know just putting it out there. So what I am saying is do you think all weight pull dogs are game? That is what I was saying it doesnt take a game dog to pull I mean you have this dog Toy Poodle in Weight Pulling Contest - Oddities News - redOrbit is he game

oh BTW this is just healthy discussion I am not fighting with ya
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Old 06-09-2010, 07:10 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
First of all this thread is directed to find out why people a half whopper dog a bully..
Then why are you including other kennel names in this thread which don't have "Bully Dogs" or bloodlines which are from cross bred dogs or dogs that exceed 70 lbs. chain weight?

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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
The things you say sound like they have merit and I know you know what your saying however they also sound like the words of a drunk who doesn't have all his facts straight and has to re check his mental notes(I follow your posts),
No not merit, facts, there is a difference. Funny you say that because after reading your rambling and misinformation about others and their dogs, I thought the same thing. It might read this way to you because you have no clue of the dogs or the people you make reference too.
You been on this board less time then I have and you've spam this board with needless information hundreds of more times then me.

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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
I know that Mayday had a pit weight over sixty during that little scuffle when the to gents couldnt decide on a weight that was even They also argued because it was basically the same dogs going up..
OTC is one thing, conditioned contract is another. What part don't you understand when I said "I was hooked at 59 with him?" Do you comprehend?

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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
You should know of whom and when I speak, that was a big deal...
Not for me and my business. This is my only interest. My only concern is information on certain subjects which you have yet to recognize. You speak of people and dogs which you don't know. Follow my responses. When I do.
Better yet, search the handle "fancier" then you get a better understanding of my knowledge of the subjects which I make references too.
Here is my last bit of information for you to understand of the information of which I type about.
See the picture of the dog next to my handle. Do you recognize her? If you don't then I will inform you how to find out. She was a Grand Champion. I buried her. You can find her name in the book "World of the American Pit Bull Terriers" on page 169! NOW YOU KNOW. So in the future don't try to correct me of information which I know is factual.

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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
A dogs pit weight isnt the same every time and YES I made a mistake the only dog mentioned that was any where near 70lb at pit weight was Jocko and Lukane, weren't they pushin 66lbs?.... I should have said "pit dogs that weighed 75lbs)
I know they are never the same when the dog is showed at catch weight but a dog at catch weight doesn't change from 59 to 75 lbs.! Dog below catch weight often never changes but a pound or so when they mature.
I have been bulldoggin a long time, long before most knew what a APBT was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
Its a small world and the reality is you and I have brushed shoulders and didn't think nothing of it.. I just showed you the pedigrees where the chain weight was 75lbs, we all know what a chain weight dog is, it aint fat.. WE all know a conditioned dog is usually 12-15lbs lighter some instances they pushed for more because of wind or bite or whatever, for advantages and all that crap, talkn with DT was very enlightened for me, as a good part of my yellow dog knowledge comes from him.),
If we have then you should know my tales when typing or responding. I doubt that we have. I've known every top dogman for the last 40 years. Chain weight depends on what condition you keep a dog in when he is not in shape. Chain weight and condintion weight depends how well your dog responds when you take a small or a large amount of weight off in a period of time.
No, we don't know that. I would never let a show dog get 12 to 15 lbs over his best weight. This statement alone tells how much conditioning and campaigning you have done. You haven't talk to D.T. in years because he is doing 30+ years. Yellow has been dead since the 90's. BTW I do rememeber F.C. showing Ch. Jocko and his brother Ch. Argus and neither was 66 lbs.
Hell I remember when Red Boy beat Jocko's grandfather Cable's Fang.
J.B. of STP stated to me he had went through a hundred dogs off Mayday and last bunch he got was the last he was going to take.
Just so happens Lukane worked out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
Im not far off in my thinking, some people say mayday was a 60lb dog the truth is all the above, as the life of a game dog is just like a prf boxer; weight and skills vary and wind is matched against weight thrown yadaydaydyadyada. I admited I mispoken however I stand firm that those dogs were 75lbs dogs, just not pit weight. That still changes nothing exc, big boy game dogs can straighten up a pullin dog line and add drive strenght etc.. As I was told the big game dog should be pullin as well as everything else they do, and we should still breed for game, however a big game dog sold to someone with big pullers will only IMPROVE their stock... So other than I was out of context which YES misconstrues ones perception; we have nothing to argue about..
A dog's best weight is his best weight. Even in catch weight you don't change from your best weight. The difference is who is willing to spot weight.
You don't go up in weight to take the action. You stay at your best weight and hope the advantage isn't to much for your dog to handle. You don't try to match your dog weight with another when showing at catch weight. This is why they call it catch weight! Not pound for pound. My encounter with Mayday was pound for pound at 59 pounds! 59 to 60 lb. was Mayday's best weight and this is the weight he was showed at. Fact son, because I was close friend with A.L. who worked and handle number 3,4 & 5 for Mayday.

Now you've changed your statement that they were 75 lb chain weight and not pit weight.
:lol: funny when people run into some one with more knowledge and corrects their information they find a way to crawfish in a different direction.
My I suggest you do the same in the future when you make reference to other people's bloodline?

I understand this thread started talking about Bully dogs and many of them were crossed. So true, but why bring Mayday, Lukane, Zebo, Davey Adam's dogs or Norrod and Castillo dogs into your threads? None of these bloodlines have dogs which continually produce dogs in catch weight range?
Castillo bloodline is a recently new bloodline and little is known of the quality but the others have been around 30 to 40+ years. These bloodlines except Castillo all have produced R.O.M. dogs.

Why not just dissect the "Bully Bloodlines" and not bring in the rest because it only adds confusion to your position.

Last edited by Tx Red Dog; 06-10-2010 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 06-09-2010, 07:43 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Firehazard,
It appears I will have to be very direct with you and more so then I want too on an open forum.

Gameness is drive. Prey drive is what gameness is all about. Dogs never fought for survival, they fought to win and conquer. To dominate.
Their prey was the other dog not a weight pull cart.
Gameness is showed when a dog is tired, hurt and frustrated.
A cart doesn't fight back, it doesn't give a dog a reason to quit.
Breeding game stock in to pull stock will not improve the ability of a pull dog to improve its abilities on a track.

These over size mutt bred pull dogs are not game dogs and since they are crossed, they aren't true American Gamedogs aka APBT. Breeding those mutts into these kind of dogs only will produce is more over size untrustworthy mutts.

UKC has taken the position to have the APBT get back to the traditional size of the APBT by closing single registration April 30, 2010. I understand there might be a new "Bully Breed" for these over sized mutts. It depends if they can breed true of which the American Bulldog couldn't do and was another spin off of the APBT like Bandogs, etc.
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Old 06-09-2010, 07:46 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Drive and gameness are two way different things, you can breed two dogs with great drive and two game dogs and look at those litters and I bet ya the drive litter has produced more drivey dogs then the game dogs produced game dogs. So in short no I dont think gameness will improve drive they are different Breeding for gameness was (talking historically since game testing is a no go anymore in the US) very difficult to breed for and was a crap shoot many times. Which I know you know just putting it out there. So what I am saying is do you think all weight pull dogs are game? That is what I was saying it doesnt take a game dog to pull I mean you have this dog Toy Poodle in Weight Pulling Contest - Oddities News - redOrbit is he game

oh BTW this is just healthy discussion I am not fighting with ya
for sure...

for me game is the "drive" to tackle any bull, bear, "dog", be able to be worked to point he's just holding on a whooped mess, and then he comes back to handle his business and work down his opponent.. All my jocko dogs are fire, they love to grab a dog, even after an intense run and hunt they don't mind grabbing each other up, always on watch. What I am saying is that our own personal preferences have destroyed what the dog men left for us. The APBT is a function breed, that should always be gamebred... SHOULD BE.. heres an example of pulling game dogs ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [173332] :: BLEVIN'S BAD DADDY (STACY'S BUDDY),
My Turok was 1/4 CHbullshit/FredT and he was a good puller as well.
heres another..
ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [14282] :: <font color=vaiolet>GR CH ACE MAX DUGAN VITALI

Pulling is an excercise that is trained as much as it is encouraged..conditioned.

What do you think about Rios Dogs? 80lbs chinaman/gator dogs? Males
would these dogs be game bred as they were taken from game stock or would they be pulling dogs. As a breeder I culled, because thats the way I was taught and the way I read it was done. Bleeding hearts and tender feet is the death of this country, let alone good bulldogs/APBTs. These dogs should be for the few the elite dogmen/women that have what it takes to keep up with what it takes to raise deep game dogs, they love to fight; you have to teach them not to fight, fk what the media and public opinion say, you already know. So we just need to clear some things up and it will clean up the name of the APBT... Louis Colby LOUIS, lol, said "no one wants a man bitting fighting dog." So therefore the game bred dog(BRED AND CULLED PROPERLY) will clean up the pulling dogs and show dogs should come from those game dogs that are picture perfect not bred to be picture perfect, with show titles promoting a game bred dog, like the ADBA show stock, OR we need to DIVIDE THE BLOODLINES AS BREEDS ALL TOGETHER... That won't happen but either it all should be game or the game dog breeders need to isolate themselves in an American Game Dog type Assoc and figure out how to salvage the name; or the dog by changing the name. Personally I think an elite attitude and availablity would be the best thing to salvage the game dog which is the true APBT, everyone take a game name renames it and makes a play on their own, I was no diferent really with pulling out the oldest traits of pit stock genetics, other than I breed my bitches only once and sterilized as I went along including the final product.



IMO the APBT should only be game bred and the right specimens go to the show ring, pulling ring and over seas or down in spanish america for the []. Breeding for anything other than game first trashes the blood, JMO
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Old 06-09-2010, 07:58 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I hope you know Fred T quit with the Yankee Boys.

GR CH ACE MAX DUGAN VITALI was a conformation show dog.
These weren't truly deep game dogs.
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:09 PM   #27 (permalink)
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What do you think about Rios Dogs? 80lbs chinaman/gator dogs? Males
would these dogs be game bred as they were taken from game stock or would they be pulling dogs.
Well if the parents were tested and proven game (of course anyone can say anything these days since there are no matching in the lime light and even discussing game testing your dogs can land you in jail, thus making e champions the flavor of the year) they would be game bred, but until proven other wise they are simply over sized dogs in someones yard. Weight pulling is not a way to prove gameness it just isnt there is no comparison to pulling and a dog going back when he could barely walk and has just had his butt handed to him in the box. As far as his dogs I would like to see some DNA testing because both FB and GB said it is virtually impossible that a chinaman dog would go that large. I love talking to the old dogs in the breed because we get good laughs out of all this my 90 pound dog is pure chinaman crap people pull from their rears.
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:20 PM   #28 (permalink)
 
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What do you think about Rios Dogs? 80lbs chinaman/gator dogs? Males
I don't believe in dogs that big, I've read, been taught other wise. Especailly the 110 lb dog. But I'm not goin to bash a mans dogs but I don't believe in APBTs being that big.
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:24 PM   #29 (permalink)
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or me game is the "drive" to tackle any bull, bear, "dog",
So if I have say lab and I decide to fight him and he runs in with drive and attacks the dog but then decides he is losing and starts howling and scambling for the wall he is game because he had the drive to get into it with another dog?

Or say I take a border collie out and he runs in and pulls a bull down to the ground but sustains no injuries and the bull gave in to him and went down without a fight then that border collie would be game?
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Old 06-09-2010, 11:53 PM   #30 (permalink)
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http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...e&dog_id=14282
Sired by a 9x winner, alot of wins for dog thats not game~ some good blood...

No~ once again, (for me game is the "drive" to tackle any bull, bear, "dog", be able to be worked to point he's just holding on a whooped mess, and then he comes back to handle his business and work down his opponent.. )for a dog to engage into a known threat as powerfull as a bull or a bear with no fear, and WITH OUT CURRING, consistantly engaging, even when its just a winded bag of bones, then bounces back with the drive or more drive than he/she had when entered the challenge. However a APBT can out herd a Border Collie and out retrieve and jump a Labrador, unfortunatley those dogs can't out do the APBT at what it was bred to do. Hooch has curred out many dogs just by his presence, including apbts of boudreaux and sorrels lines, had those dogs circle owners feet trying to get out of site, LOL... That was just on coyote hunts before and after hunts.

When raising any catch dogs, or bear dogs, or for cats(mt.lions) even hounds have kennel fights and sometimes even killing each other, its important you find a state that supports your lifestyle, hunting predators with dogs is big in Idaho, so dog fighting is a misd and there has to be a witness and gambling invovled. Because so many people have bear dogs, hounds, game dogs(very few), catch dogs(cur dogs), etc to hunt predators, while working for the vet made many calls to stitch up peoples hounds and such..Although they aren't game dogs they are pugnacious so the laws support the peoples consitutional rights. So I don't worry about kennel disputes anymore, just patch em up, though they are slim to none these days, no pit fighting going on here, just intense little dogs of prey. IN no way do I believe weight pulling can prove a game dog, rather its excercise for him/her, like strength training a boxer
As far as the big dogs we already agree that a game dog should be small as I bred my foundation 75lb 3/4 Jocko male down to 35lbs. I brought up those big chinaman dogs because people swear that big dogs from "game" lines are rung or mongerals... So I just wondered what ya'll thought about that, I didn't think chinaman dogs went over 50 hell 45lb as far as what I have seen, but Im not keen on those dogs and big dogs and occur, I got a lil shot of G&G spike in my 30lb zebo dog thats about it from garner. Mind you Chavis Jocko(my bag) was big dog and his sire was a 40lbs dog, so big dogs can occur from small dogs (begging the question). Fred T was Tudors and Useltons, thats all I needed to know, a well bred dog that I don't see around much, I used heavy Tudors dogs because Tudors gathered dogs and through them all together so the way I see it those lines have some good stuff waiting to resurface especially tossed in with Jocko, all kinds of good stuff popped up.. Genetics is everything~
The original dogmen took game dogs to show, to weight pull, etc.. SO why should we do any different? Whats that Heinzel said? "When we start breeding for looks?~ yadda yadda" We should breed for game which is a mentality, the rest just falls in place. JMO
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Last edited by Firehazard; 06-10-2010 at 12:37 AM.
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