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Old 12-31-2011, 02:39 AM   #16 (permalink)
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OP, here are some great links to help you understand dog aggression in petbulls.

Dog Aggression in Pit Bulls | PitBulls

Dog/Dog Tolerance | BAD RAP

I would highly suggest you read what they have to say and take it to heart. If you notice, neither of those links say you can't have your dog around other dogs -- BUT they DO say that you have to be aware of your dog's tolerance level and the potential that it can change no matter how much socialization you give your dog as a puppy. Even the most minor changes in body language and your dog's responses to another dog is evidence that their tolerance may be changing.

My dog Kane has changed in his tolerance level as he's matured. I took him to the dog park all the time when he was a puppy and then to doggy daycare as well. He was socialized out the wazoo with other dogs, strange dogs, familiar dogs, every dog we saw. Around 14 months of age, I started noticing little things. He was still laid-back and easy-going with most dogs, but he started to get snippier earlier if another dog was rude to him. He would let the first couple of tackles or humps or barks in the face go, but if the other dog didn't listen to him telling them to knock it off or back off, that's when he would step it up again and I could tell that if they ignored his next warning, he would back up his warning with a physical telling off, such as snapping at them or what have you.

And this is normal for ANY dog as they reach maturity. Most dog's tolerances change as they get older. They don't need or want to be friends with every dog they meet; they tend to stick with the ones they already know. Just like when we were little kids and anyone could be our friend, as we grew up, we changed and came to expect that strangers would have a certain level of politeness and manners. If they don't, we treat them the same way as dogs--we give them "looks" or other warnings.

Now, at 2 years, Kane still loves to play with other dogs and is eager to greet them. But he does have a certain amount of dog intolerance insofar as his temper is shorter for rude dogs. BUT I realize that and can manage it by setting him up to play with dogs who know appropriate play styles. If I had my head in the sand and denied that he was aggressive to some dogs at all, then it could lead to an accident that would be MY fault and could lead to Kane's DEATH.

edit: I also wanted to point out that both of these websites say that MOST pit bulls have some level of dog aggression in them, even if it's not necessarily a dog that goes ballistic at the sight of another dog--like Kane who has a lower tolerance for rude dogs. That's still dog aggression.

Last edited by k8nkane; 12-31-2011 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 12-31-2011, 06:19 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Ah, welcome to the world of owning a Pit Bull type dog. I do not disagree with the dog park ban, I find dog parks to be great places for your dog to catch disease, get blamed for a fight it did not start or learn piss poor dog behavior.

One should not discount the fact that the breed was selectively bred for over a 100 years to fight other dogs. While it is true that dog/dog aggression is a trait that, genetically, is hard to fix (and harder to maintain) as it does nothing to further the survival of the dog, it is also true that it has been bred for and it will crop up.

Dog parks are great places for negative socialization to play on the genetics in your pup. I believe in socialization to as many people, objects, places and dogs you can MANAGE as your pup matures, but the key here is MANAGE. You can NOT manage your dogs interactions in a dog park, there are too many variables. Stupid people, aggressive dogs. Do not set your pup up for failure. Instead, get him out and about, and preferably into training classes and small play dates, where you and the other dogs/pups owners can MANAGE the play.

Keeping your dog at home, afraid to go out, or on a chain, does just as much damage to the development of his dog/dog skills (and dog/world skills) so don't think I am saying that. Just be in control of what your pup experiences and make his interactions positive.

PS Bitches are the worst when it comes to fights.
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:02 AM   #18 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by k8nkane View Post
Dog aggression has a genetic component. It's true there are some dogs that never display dog aggression. But to say that your dog is only dog aggressive because you didn't socialize it enough is false. There are some dogs you can socialize out the wazoo and they still will not like other dogs.

And, unfortunately, your dog will always be judged because of someone else's irresponsibility, simply because of the type of dog he is. It's a fact of life you have to acknowledge and come to terms with as an owner.
When you say your dog is naturally aggressive because of genetics, you already threw all the good qualities this dog's genetics posses. Someone up there mentioned if I knew the history of the breed, yes I do. I also know that they were the first choice in american homes in the 19th century. I know the story of a dog named stubby who helped our military in ww1. I haven't heard of one science report that says that the pit bull breed has more aggression then any other breed in the world. Until someone shows me that report. I will continue to fight for my dogs right to be treated equal to every other breed out there.
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:57 AM   #19 (permalink)
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HUMAN aggression and DOG aggression are not two sides of the same coin. "Pit bull" breeds are, by nature, dog aggressive due to hundreds of years of breeding for fighting in the pit, hence the name, American PIT bull terrier.

When it comes to pit bulls, aggression cannot be viewed as all encompassing. No one is saying that DA makes our dogs monsters, or killing machines, but you have to understand that to own any of the "pit bull" type dogs you cannot go in thinking that your dog is just like any other dog. That right there is the problem and a huge mistake.

There is a reason that pit bull rescue organizations, shelters and any other group well versed in the pill bull nature will recommend that pit bulls should be the only dog in a household or with a compatible dog of the opposite sex.

In the same way you cannot get a herding breed to stop herding no matter how many generations removed they are from an actual herd of sheep, and you cannot get a terrier to stop digging and burrowing and you cannot get a pointer to stop pointing even though it may spend its life on a couch. Those who truly appreciate the APBT understand that the good characteristics: extreme loyalty, eagerness to please, eagerness to work, etc come hand in hand with the "bad": dog aggression. We accept it and respect it. All the breed's traits combined are what make up our breed of choice and to change one part would be to change the whole.
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Old 12-31-2011, 01:56 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I will continue to fight for my dogs right to be treated equal to every other breed out there.
All breeds are NOT equal, though. That's why they are BREEDS. Each dog has qualities that come from their breeds that you have to keep in mind, respect, and sometimes manage.

If you get a herding breed like a border collie, most bc's will want to herd everything when they're a puppy. You have to teach them what is and is not appropriate to herd or you'll have problems down the line.

If you get a small terrier breed like a Jack Russell, you have to keep in mind that it's likely your dog will have a high prey drive and manage that by not having your dog off-leash in an unfenced area and by keeping any small rodents you may own as pets separate from your dog.

It's the same with pit bulls. It is a FACT that you will find discussed with EVERY SINGLE REPUTABLE pit bull rescue (you know, the organizations that deal with hundreds and thousands of these dogs every year) that you should be prepared for Dog Aggression in this "breed". They tell you to be prepared for it because most pit bull type dogs display it to some degree or another, even if it's just an intolerance for rude dogs.

That's why I gave you the links I did, to show you the spectrum from reputable sources. BAD RAP is the pit bull rescue that took in the Vick dogs. You think they aren't aware and knowledgeable about dog aggression? They explicitly state that is a fact of life you have to be aware of when having a pit bull type dog.

Again, we're not saying your dog WILL be dog aggressive, but we are saying that it's likely he will be and you need to be prepared for that. Otherwise I fear for you and your dog and what can happen.
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Old 01-01-2012, 03:31 AM   #21 (permalink)
 
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Sounds like a bunch of excuses for not being able to control and properly train your dog. If you have a dog that attacks other dogs on view then the problem is not the dog. It's your fault for not properly training your dog. Aggression against other dogs is a social problem for not letting them interact with other dogs because you assumed that because it was used for fighting eons ago that it will do it again." Ohh, Im not bringing my dog around other dogs because he's gonna attack" Wrong, Your hurting the dog by not training to be social as a puppy. Every time you tighten the leash when another dog comes around you are sending the dog a signal. You need to assume authority and be the dog owner. Not the dogs bitch. These dogs are so smart that they take training really good. But if your a lazy a$$ and settle for false statistics then you shouldn't own a dog and you actually are putting society at risk. .

You need to be able to read your dogs body language and redirect the mind untill he/she gets it. I understand there are some that have behavioral issues but isn't it like that with every breed? Even humans?

They are how you raise them.
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Old 01-01-2012, 03:42 AM   #22 (permalink)
 
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Ok well now you are putting members down here, members who have years upon years of experience with this breed you have what a couple months? I suggest you open your mind a bit and listen to what the experienced owners have to offer you and listen . Im sorry but the clown who sold you a dog of this breed did the breed an injustice and obviously didnt care who he /she sold a dog too. With the mentality you have this breed isnt for you. I think you have watched a lil too much ceaser milan. Its genetic in these dogs, did anyone say dont socialize? no , every one of us on here have socialized our dogs ,alot of them dont have DA and manage just fine with other dogs the issue is with dog parks. Its an area uncontrollable , the best way to socialize with other dogs is one on one in a controlled setting where is play gets out of hand you can intervine quickly and effectively. People mistake socializing to only being with other dogs thats false. It needs to be done with new environments, people more then anything, and new experiences. Da can still kick in no matter how you raise them or how much you socialize its GENETIC, it can also be selective to only one sex or maybe even selct dog or 2 or canbe full on any dog in there path. I just dont get how you have had this dog for such a short time but already know it all? You really wont do you or your dog any justice if you think that way , there is always things to learn and when you are being offered knowledge and then throwing it in those peoples faces thats pretty disrespectful. Hopefully you never experience DA with your dog but maybe if you did it may open your eyes to it not being how you raise them , maybe then you will be so lucky as to have someone call you lazy ass.
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Old 01-01-2012, 04:43 AM   #23 (permalink)
 
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I raised and bred dogs. I've owned multi dogs and they are socialized. My DA dog (as of yet) is not my APBT, it's my Mastiff. He lived all his life with 2 other dogs with no issues. At 8y/o and living 6 mths with my APBT he attacked my APBT. Now mind you, my dogs are trained and know their commands but when DA pops up everything goes out the window. I was present with them in my yard when it occurred. I wasn't able to get there fast enough. All commands went out of the window. My husband and I tried everything to separate them. Damage was done and hundreds of $ in vet bills along with 3 months of healing. My APBT didn't start it, he was blind sided by my Mastiff but let me tell you he was willing and able to finish it. I was blessed it wasn't in a dog park with other dogs. My APBT would of been blamed no question. It can happen with any breed at any time. Do you want to put your dog in a position have to protect himself, then be blamed for it. I wouldn't. I am always present when my dogs are outside in the backyard. My dogs wear muzzles/use leashes in public not because it is the law here but because I don't want anyone to try and say your dog.....We live a C&R lifestyle for everyone's safety and happiness. They play, socialize, and enjoy our company but it is separate, they are content with that.
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Old 01-01-2012, 05:47 AM   #24 (permalink)
 
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I don't think I mentioned anybody in particular and I wasn't disrespectfull to you nor any member of this community. I give credit when it's do. Cesar Milan IS the real deal. I reference him because I've seen his work and respect his mind. You should too. Not my first time around the block either. I had a brindle name gambinii with no social issues. I can give him one command and he will sit there until I release him. No leash. I didn't say I knew everything, I just happen to disagree with the whole "I can't have my dog at a dog park that I helped pay for with my taxes like everybody else off leash and no muzzle just because of a law passed in 1989".

I enjoy educated discussions and Im sorry if I come out wrong but i get really frustrated by stupid assumptions without merits. Show me what gene in the dogs dna controls aggression. Then Show me side by side comparison where the pit's dna has a higher level of aggression to what you would consider a perfect dog gene and i will stand corrected. Until then all this is here is just a discussion.

My military experience has given me the opportunity to see structure in action. With the proper training and discipline you can achieve anything in life. I plan on raising a structured dog worthy of equal treatment.
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Old 01-01-2012, 06:11 AM   #25 (permalink)
 
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Old 01-01-2012, 09:00 AM   #26 (permalink)
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You should not assume that people who choose (wisely) to avoid the dog park do so because their dogs are 'untrained' or 'unsocialized' My dog has multiple Obedience and Rally titles, I would not risk exposing HIM to the idiots and untrained, unmanaged dogs he would have to interact with at a dog park.

What you are not getting is that it is YOUR job to protect YOUR pup from bad experiences that may negatively impact him and his social development and you can NOT do that in a dog park because you have no control over the other people and dogs who are there.

Your dog is a PUPPY, and it doesn't matter how freaking cute he is in whatever he is wearing, he going to grow into a DOG. Dogs will often settle or control conflict with other dogs with a show of teeth or a minor spat (much sound about nothing) or even a downright brawl. You do not have the luxury of owning a dog in which 'normal' dog behavior is excepted (should have gotten something fluffy if you wanted to go to the dog park and no one would care how bad you dog was) Instead, what you have represents all of us who struggle to keep our dogs, present our dogs in a positive light.

One slip up, a dog attacks your poor pup and he fights back (as he should, what self respecting dog takes that laying down?) it hits the news and BAM, all the work I do with my dogs is undone. No one reads about CGC's in the papers, no one reads about Titles either, but you damn well bet your ass they read about any 'pit bull attack' and that's what it will be deemed. It sucks, and it's not fair, but we play by a different set of rules.... and play by them we must, or we lose our dogs. It's that serious. No one reads about all the good things that happen at the dog park.

No one here is saying they think their dogs are aggressive or 'bad', what we ARE saying is 'do not set your dog up to fail' and do not drag us down with you.
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Old 01-01-2012, 12:22 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Simba View Post
Sounds like a bunch of excuses for not being able to control and properly train your dog. If you have a dog that attacks other dogs on view then the problem is not the dog. It's your fault for not properly training your dog. Aggression against other dogs is a social problem for not letting them interact with other dogs because you assumed that because it was used for fighting eons ago that it will do it again." Ohh, Im not bringing my dog around other dogs because he's gonna attack" Wrong, Your hurting the dog by not training to be social as a puppy. Every time you tighten the leash when another dog comes around you are sending the dog a signal. You need to assume authority and be the dog owner. Not the dogs bitch. These dogs are so smart that they take training really good. But if your a lazy a$$ and settle for false statistics then you shouldn't own a dog and you actually are putting society at risk. .

You need to be able to read your dogs body language and redirect the mind untill he/she gets it. I understand there are some that have behavioral issues but isn't it like that with every breed? Even humans?

They are how you raise them.
The issue is that in a dog park, there is no leash. Your dog is at the whim of every other owners' training or lack thereof. There is no control. But when a fight breaks out, whether or not your pit bull starts it, it will be blamed. It has nothing to do with signals traveling down the leash.

Just tonight we had our neighbors over with their 11 week old golden retriever pup. The environment was controlled, and though it was my pit bull, Loki, I was the most concerned about with the pup, it was our sheltie mix that showed the most intolerance towards the pup. Loki more than exceeded my expectations but does that mean that I plan on taking him to the dog park tomorrow? No. Because i love my dog and I will not set him up for failure. Just because he is well behaved or tolerant toward one dog does not mean that he will be the same way with others.

Look, it is your choice on whether or not you take your dog to dog parks, but know that if an incident arises and your dog is involved in any way, it will not reflect well on the breed.

And the whole "it's all in how you raise them" gimmick is seriously old and a ridiculous cliche. You cannot love an inherent characteristic out of an animal just by sheer will. The sooner you recognize that the better off you an your dog will be. Pit bulls are great dogs, but they are not like every other dog breed and they are not for everyone. To think otherwise is foolish.
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Old 01-01-2012, 03:27 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I never said I didn't or don't socialize my dog. Have you read any of my posts?

I'm one of the ONLY members here who took their dog to the dog park and doggy daycare. Everyone here will tell you that they tried to persuade me of the dangers of letting my dog socialize in an uncontrolled environment. I was just like you, believe it's all in how they're raised.

Well, it's not. I never changed in socializing my dog, I continued to take Kane to dog parks and doggy daycares, I let him greet whichever dog he wanted to greet (which was, and still is, every dog he sees), but even though I didn't stop socializing him, he started to mature and his dog tolerance began to change. Kane went from a dog that was laid-back and let everything slide off his back to a dog that gave a warning for rude behavior and then backed it up physically if the other dog still didn't listen.

So, how do you explain that change in dog tolerance when 1) I didn't stop socializing him even as he got older and 2) he never had a bad incident with another dog to make him dog aggressive?

The answer is he changed as his genetics came into play.

To say that genetics have no effect on a dog, it's all in nurture is a fallacy and a lie. If that's the case, dogs must be SUPER SPECIAL!!!!! because they're the only known creature in the entire world, from microbes to blue whales, that have their behavior determined entirely by how they're raised. If genetics didn't play a role in how dogs behave, don't you think scientists would be writing article after article and doing experiment after experiment to see WHY they're like that?

Now, I'm going to go out on a limb and say there are several reasons I felt comfortable enough to take Kane to my local dog park:

1) It's huge. 4 acres of land with a lake in the middle and trails through a forested area towards the back. If I didn't like the way a dog played, I could take Kane with me to a different part of the park and we could have our own fun.

2) You had to pay a good chunk of change for membership to this park. Because of this, you didn't get any Joe Schmoe off the street walking in with their untrained dog. Most people who don't care enough about their dogs to train or socialize them properly won't bother to fork over the money to pay for a dog park when we have several others that are free in the area.

3) Following that, the (majority of) owners who went to this park CARED and were RESPONSIBLE and INVOLVED in their dog's playing.They didn't ignore their dog's bad behavior, they didn't stand to the side and just talk on their cell phones, etc.

The chances of finding all three of those in a dog park are slim. You might get one or the other, but the majority of dog parks are underfunded, not maintained, and too small for the number of dogs and people that go to them.

And despite my park's good qualities, a fight still broke out between two dogs that had been playing together for years. Not a snarly, back-off exchange, but a full-on, to the death fight. Both dogs and owners came away with injuries from breaking up the fight and from what I heard, the vet bills were a grand or two.

Those two dogs were a lab and a border collie. Now imagine if it was a pit bull. It would get immediate news attention: "PIT BULL ATTACKS DOG AT DOG PARK". People would put pressure on you and the city to put your dog down because he's "vicious" and "uncontrollable", even if he didn't start the fight.

Is that what you want to risk?
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Old 01-01-2012, 09:15 PM   #29 (permalink)
Educate, Don't legislate
 
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You obviously do not get it simba. Why take the risk? Many people have explained socialization. Others have explained why Cesar Milan on tv isn't the real deal. The real guy carries a breadstick because YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT COULD HAPPEN. The world is not as structured as the military and expecting it to be in regards of dogs is outrageous when others do not take this approach. Why out your dog at risk with other owners who you do not know. Forget about the dogs breed and worry about owners and potential for disease. Why put your dog (that I am assuming you love) at risk?
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Old 01-02-2012, 06:30 AM   #30 (permalink)
 
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Simba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scale
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Im Sorry if i seemed like a hard head. It just gets me so mad how people discriminate these dogs. I understand you alls concerned and feelings about dog parks. I agree, I wouldn't want an idiot to blame my dog. Plus I don't want fleas and ticks.
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