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Old 01-04-2012, 01:40 AM   #46 (permalink)
 
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Simba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scale
Simba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scaleSimba is off the scale
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Originally Posted by ames View Post
what you are saying? Its a freaking clip that says EXACTLY what we all have been saying. Never once does he condone dog parks, never once does he say he lets the dog go on their own instincts, he has to WATCH and TEACH him. THIS IS WHAT WE ARE TELLING YOU and you can't do it in a dog park dude. Seriously, you just made the case against yourself with this clip, lmao. And Junior isn't an APBT.
That's bull
Alot of you been saying the same .."It's in their genes" "It's part of their dna" " They were bred to fight"... Ok. I got the park thing already and it's understandable but I made it clear that a balanced dog starts with the owner...Go back and read. My argument was that if you structure your dog and socialize him you won't have all those issues. I understand that you could have a well trained dog and some idiot might have his as a trophy and teaches him aggression and may get mine in trouble but that could be any breed in any situation. I also understand dogparks are in you alls opinion "bad news".. I get it. but i don't wanna keep a dog always tied down and muzzled away from other dogs. He's a dog for god's sake. He needs to be social and play with other dogs. I don't know any dog owners in my area and it puts me here debating with you all about it. I rather be out throwing a tennis ball and watching him run around with some little friends or something.

Look guys, I didn't mean to open this can of worms to get into arguments with you all. I just expressed my dislike for the system and how it's set up. Apparently some of you all have made the decision to live with it and not do much about it. Dogs will be dogs but us humans can make a diference in their lives. Simba and I will be attending obedience training and hopefully Simba can be an example in my community. I think the key is educating the public and setting up doggy boot camps for new owners so that cases like the ones some of you have experienced can be avoided.
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:51 AM   #47 (permalink)
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It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who completely ignore the breed's history. There is a clue in the name American Pit Bull Terrier. Someone earlier in the thread made the very good point that we have different breeds for different purposes and if they were all the same, we wouldn't have different breeds. That's really about as complicated as it gets.

Breeds with a fighting history shouldn't be in dog parks. Not really a difficult concept to understand.
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:55 AM   #48 (permalink)
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my dog went to classes and I also had a paid trainer come to my house after I realized he (and I) needed one on one help to MANAGE his Dog aggression. Your argument is wrong. That is not an opinion, its a fact. Every breed has this in them, but most will not fight until death. A lab will get all pissed off, hurt a dog real bad, but they will get tired and bored and not FINISH the fight. a Pit bull will ALWAYS FINISH no matter who starts.

until you realize that, its in their genetic history, its a PART OF THEM please do NOT go out representing my breed of choice, do NOT go out playing the hero and how great your dog is and how you are his leader and you can go to all the dog parks everywhere no matter what. Give your dog a chance to grow before you are on the news saying this crap and you never thought it would happen. If this is your first pit bull type dog, why are you not willing to learn from people who have experience? Its a good thing to not allow pit bull type dogs at a off leash dog park. If it changed too many people might bring their dogs to an off leash dog park and make the mistake others have made before them. LEARN from history, it often repeats itself!!
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Last edited by ames; 01-04-2012 at 01:59 AM.
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:56 AM   #49 (permalink)
 
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That's bull
Alot of you been saying the same .."It's in their genes" "It's part of their dna" " They were bred to fight"... Ok. I got the park thing already and it's understandable but I made it clear that a balanced dog starts with the owner...Go back and read. My argument was that if you structure your dog and socialize him you won't have all those issues. I understand that you could have a well trained dog and some idiot might have his as a trophy and teaches him aggression and may get mine in trouble but that could be any breed in any situation. I also understand dogparks are in you alls opinion "bad news".. I get it. but i don't wanna keep a dog always tied down and muzzled away from other dogs. He's a dog for god's sake. He needs to be social and play with other dogs. I don't know any dog owners in my area and it puts me here debating with you all about it. I rather be out throwing a tennis ball and watching him run around with some little friends or something.

Look guys, I didn't mean to open this can of worms to get into arguments with you all. I just expressed my dislike for the system and how it's set up. Apparently some of you all have made the decision to live with it and not do much about it. Dogs will be dogs but us humans can make a diference in their lives. Simba and I will be attending obedience training and hopefully Simba can be an example in my community. I think the key is educating the public and setting up doggy boot camps for new owners so that cases like the ones some of you have experienced can be avoided.
It is not just a dog it's a bulldog. and anyone that doesn't understand how that separates them from just any other dog should not have one.
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:05 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Simba View Post
That's bull
Alot of you been saying the same .."It's in their genes"
My argument was that if you structure your dog and socialize him you won't have all those issues.
He's a dog for god's sake.
He needs to be social and play with other dogs. I don't know any dog owners in my area and it puts me here debating with you all about it. I rather be out throwing a tennis ball and watching him run around with some little friends or something.

.
Thank you so much! This is the ONE single point we all try to make. THIS IS NOT A PET ANIMAL that should "run around. Many other great breeds for that.. AND YES, THIS BREED IS SWEET AND LOVING AND LOYAL AND AFFECTIONATE AND .... like Mike Tyson, will devestate with his sweetheart self, and you dont want to be the person with the pitbull that attacked the other dog in the park you were throwing your ball with yours off the leash in.. think about this.. get a retriever and stop letting another pitbull of their leash in public.. YOURE KILLING OUR BREED

(ps .. notice my avatar.. they are sweethearts, and I know this, but come see her at a show.......)
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:40 AM   #51 (permalink)
 
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Do NOT go out representing my breed of choice, do NOT go out playing the hero and how great your dog is and how you are his leader and you can go to all the dog parks everywhere no matter what.
Your suppression of your dog in my opinion is wrong. On top of that who are you to tell me what I can and cant do with my dog. If I choose to go to my daughter's school and talk to a group of children about the breed and how we can prevent people like you from suppressing them and making them out to be worst then what they really are then to me that's doing the breed some justice. Did someone inject them with killing juice and it's over? Did someone install a fighting chip on every pit bull? In my opinion, Hell no. If Simbas parents and grand parents weren't raised to fight and were part of a family setting where they were loved and lived normal loving and social lives, you mean to tell me that those traits are less then those of a dog raised only to fight?

Let's compare 2 dogs.
Killa was a dog bred to fight and came from a bloodline of nothing but fighters. His life was in cages, chained to a pole, trained daily only to kill. Sometime he would get a few muts to spar with. Killa doesn't get affection and never was given the chance to be around other dogs.. Killa was retired then used for mating for more fighting generations.

Red was a puppy from good owners with lots of love and attention to give. Always exposed to other dogs and taught to ignore dogs with no balance. Like daddy and Jr. Red loved children and was always exposed to different situations. The all around good house dog. Red had puppies and care for them and even passed down and taught the puppies her ways.

I can understand how some traits would be passed down from a dog like killa. But what about Red's traits. You gonna treat every puppy as if they all came from killa? You mean to tell me that I have to keep my dog suppressed because of the traits another dog posses? If the dog was trained to fight at the turn of the 19th century and was bred to do only that then what about people who didn't bread them for that matter? Is that trait lost? Is that breed not worthy of the same treatment and judgment as a dog that wasn't raised to fight? So what is there to get? What am I missing? Somebody please explain to me how training a dog to fight can be handed down to his offspring if the owner is not raising him to fight but to be a member of a family home. So if I train Simba to bring me a beer from the fridge his offspring are gonna be born with that trait?

What Im not getting is how people rather sit behind and let an uneducated public treat their dogs as if they were an untamed beast. What I don't get is how If a member of this site says they wanna make a difference in the breeds reputation he would get bashed as if he said he's fighting them. What I don't get is the lack of voices saying "We can change this"... I think I owe it to my dog to provide him a fair and balanced life. I refuse to keep my dog secluded from society as if he was a freak or something. Im more pumped now than ever to go out and make a difference.

If i could strap 80lbs of gear and weapons and go across seas and defend my country from extremist groups trying to kill my fellow Americans and what we stand for, then it shouldn't be so hard for me to defend my dog in my own country. Anybody who know me can tell you that I don't lay on my back and take it. Now you can sit on your ass and settle or you can get up and do something about it.

"It isn't the breed alone, but the human behind the dog that determine behavior". Cesar Milan
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:07 AM   #52 (permalink)
 
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Your suppression of your dog in my opinion is wrong. On top of that who are you to tell me what I can and cant do with my dog. If I choose to go to my daughter's school and talk to a group of children about the breed and how we can prevent people like you from suppressing them and making them out to be worst then what they really are then to me that's doing the breed some justice. Did someone inject them with killing juice and it's over? Did someone install a fighting chip on every pit bull? In my opinion, Hell no. If Simbas parents and grand parents weren't raised to fight and were part of a family setting where they were loved and lived normal loving and social lives, you mean to tell me that those traits are less then those of a dog raised only to fight?

Let's compare 2 dogs.
Killa was a dog bred to fight and came from a bloodline of nothing but fighters. His life was in cages, chained to a pole, trained daily only to kill. Sometime he would get a few muts to spar with. Killa doesn't get affection and never was given the chance to be around other dogs.. Killa was retired then used for mating for more fighting generations.

Red was a puppy from good owners with lots of love and attention to give. Always exposed to other dogs and taught to ignore dogs with no balance. Like daddy and Jr. Red loved children and was always exposed to different situations. The all around good house dog. Red had puppies and care for them and even passed down and taught the puppies her ways.

I can understand how some traits would be passed down from a dog like killa. But what about Red's traits. You gonna treat every puppy as if they all came from killa? You mean to tell me that I have to keep my dog suppressed because of the traits another dog posses? If the dog was trained to fight at the turn of the 19th century and was bred to do only that then what about people who didn't bread them for that matter? Is that trait lost? Is that breed not worthy of the same treatment and judgment as a dog that wasn't raised to fight? So what is there to get? What am I missing? Somebody please explain to me how training a dog to fight can be handed down to his offspring if the owner is not raising him to fight but to be a member of a family home. So if I train Simba to bring me a beer from the fridge his offspring are gonna be born with that trait?

What Im not getting is how people rather sit behind and let an uneducated public treat their dogs as if they were an untamed beast. What I don't get is how If a member of this site says they wanna make a difference in the breeds reputation he would get bashed as if he said he's fighting them. What I don't get is the lack of voices saying "We can change this"... I think I owe it to my dog to provide him a fair and balanced life. I refuse to keep my dog secluded from society as if he was a freak or something. Im more pumped now than ever to go out and make a difference.

If i could strap 80lbs of gear and weapons and go across seas and defend my country from extremist groups trying to kill my fellow Americans and what we stand for, then it shouldn't be so hard for me to defend my dog in my own country. Anybody who know me can tell you that I don't lay on my back and take it. Now you can sit on your ass and settle or you can get up and do something about it.

"It isn't the breed alone, but the human behind the dog that determine behavior". Cesar Milan
First off thanks for what you do for our country, real talk. Second off Man you just don't know anything about the breed. It is crazy this two dog example is a joke I already told you about my dog in this thread. it is not something that can be trained. I don't see why you do not understand that. If you want to do something for the breed keep your dog on a leash when not on private property, and have respect for the stopping power our breed has. Take your dog to public places were he is going to be confronted by dogs he does not know is not good for the breed. Nor is Cesar Milan, He fills the masses with these thoughts but fails to tell them that some dogs you can not take the DA out of.
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:25 AM   #53 (permalink)
 
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I think taking the dog to your daughters school and talking to them about your dog and the breed is great. People need to leave the stereo typical myths and get to the facts. I always walk my girls down to the school they love the kids and the kids love them. Parents have even come around and talked to me about the dogs and hopefully I have changed some minds on them even if just slightly. I think socializing with strange people is a great idea. Dogs on the other hand should be in a controlable environment. But im out of breath on this thread I think if you dont get it yet you probably wont until you find yourself in the situations we are all trying to warm you about. So as you said we cant control what you do with your dog , good luck hope everything is full of rainbows and lollipops like you seem to think it is
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:04 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Ok, I think we are starting to slide down the slippery slope here. The OP has stated that they understand the dangers of Dog Parks and Uncontrolled environments and the risks inherent to those.

However. we do need to be careful, especially on public forums, of making our point by stating they are unlike other dogs (dog aggression is a common trait among many breeds and crops up in dogs within breeds not generally associated with it) They are not akin to wild animals like lions (this gives credence to the wack jobs over at dogsbite.org who use our own words against us in the fight to ban our breed, they like to use direct quotes from websites like this and others to 'prove' that even we Pit Bull Apologists think they are untrainable and uncontrollable) Can you tell I'm a bit paranoid, since they have quoted me before?

It's quite simple, really. Do not put your dog in situations you can not control. Don't let it make it's own decisions at places like a dog park and KNOW your particular dog.... not what you WANT your particular dog to be, but how will he or she react in a given situation. Learn to read dog body language and be aware that DOGS become less tolerant of rude behavior as they mature and it is your responsibility to prevent them from being in a situation where they need to handle it themselves. That's your job.

Dogs aren't 'trained' to fight in the normal sense of the word, and I think that is where you (OP)are getting off track here. They are put in situations where aggression (defensive or offensive) is encouraged and rewarded. Natural instincts, brought to the fore) I've had dogs like Killa in your scenario, straight off fight busts, who were absolutely stupendous dogs. Given little to no socialization with much of anything, they were solid little dogs who even learned to tolerate or ignore other dogs.

I own a dog raised like Red in your scenario and she, despite her socialization, since 8 weeks old, is always looking to throw down with any dog. She's quite devious about it too. No amount of obedience training will EVER take that out of her, it is who she is. She knows not to act a fool now, but give her an opportunity and she will take it. She is sitting 2 feet away in a crate while my foster dog gets some run right now, looking like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth. Will even play bow as the other dog tries to entice her to play through the crate. She's the same dog who pushed open a door I didn't check close enough and kicked that dogs ass in a brawl that took me a break stick and a sliding door to end. (my mistake, obviously) She's great with people and kids (as a Pit Bull should be) even loves the vet, but she requires a great deal of management. This has nothing to do with her 'training' she is actually trained just as well as my competitive obedience male, she just can't compete because she would pose a danger to other peoples dogs. She would hold a Down Stay amongst other dogs, but other dogs don't always hold theirs. They enter 'her' space and it's on. So, I would never put her in THAT situation.
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:07 AM   #55 (permalink)
 
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First off thanks for what you do for our country, real talk. Second off Man you just don't know anything about the breed. It is crazy this two dog example is a joke I already told you about my dog in this thread. it is not something that can be trained. I don't see why you do not understand that. If you want to do something for the breed keep your dog on a leash when not on private property, and have respect for the stopping power our breed has. Take your dog to public places were he is going to be confronted by dogs he does not know is not good for the breed. Nor is Cesar Milan, He fills the masses with these thoughts but fails to tell them that some dogs you can not take the DA out of.
First of all...your welcome.. Second, it's people like you and what ever her name is that hurt this breed after the fact. My understanding of the history they were first bred to bring down bulls for show, then that got band and breeders turned to fighting them in pits. But it seems like that's the only trait that remained was the fighting part because it seems that the part where they are also really smart and loyal got lost in the blood. It seems like we're mixed up with breeding and socializing. At what point do they separate? Why can you breed them to fight but you can't breed them to be social. It's my understanding that bull dogs and terriers are both loving and social breeds. So why should I believe that putting them together you get a monster? IMO breeding and training are 2 different things. Yes the pit is the choice to fight because of their strength and dominance but pit fighter traits are programmed into the dog by humans. I don't believe there is a fighting gene in the pit that's different from any other dog. Any dog in any situation where he feels he needs to defend him self will, some till the end. Not all thou. Some will ensure their dominance and the other has to except the higher power. The difference in the pit is his strength and that's why the breed. Not because his daddy was a killa. That's just my view. Of course if a breeder is running an underground training camp for all the puppies from his fighters then I would have to agree. But not all breeders are fighting their pits.

It's easier to blame the dog for our human errors. I think it's time for the breed to be looked at for what they really are, Loving affectionate, loyal and smart dogs. Not the ex killer. If us humans can't take responsibility for our actions then the suits will make uneducated decisions based on a 1989 law.

Here is some food for thought... German Shepards are bred and trained to attack humans. When their not working, should they no be around the public?
it is in their dna isn't it?
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:52 AM   #56 (permalink)
 
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Here is some food for thought... German Shepards are bred and trained to attack humans. When their not working, should they no be around the public?
it is in their dna isn't it?[/QUOTE]

You make some Ok points. But you are mistaken in a few things you said. First off yeah they were bull baiting dogs. Started out as a working purpose, Butchers at the time believed it made the meat more tender if it were worked by bulldogs, then turned to sport then when it was banned. That is when the dogs were pushed heavily into the pit. I am not by any means say the dog are not loyal. They are and it is even said that the gamiest dogs were bred away from Human aggressive behaviors. this is why this is a great breed it's will to please it's family. Along with that the dog was bred to be Game, never quit attitude in the pit. Sadly this is the reason that Like a working GSD these dogs must have special owners ons that know the right and wrong ways to do things. A bulldog should always be on a leash in public like I said.

I do some Training, some people even paid me to train their dogs and them. (not saying I am the best trainer, but I know a thing or two) So say what you will about people not being able to control their dogs. NO THIS breed is not like other dogs. And not every one should own them just like not everyone should own a working GSD. It is not the other people I am worried about it is other dogs. A "pitbull" attacks Family Yorkie" Who's fault does the media point to? The person who thought they could undo CENTURIES of breeding, and was not a responsible APBT owner. Then the hole bulldog community and the breed suffers. Thats all I am saying. Tell me what you have done for the breed?

Last edited by Rudy4747; 01-04-2012 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 01-04-2012, 06:18 AM   #57 (permalink)
 
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Everyone here is trying to better the breed and help fight discrimination...But we also understand our dogs history and that genetics do play a part in DA (not ALWAYS but sometimes)...

All we are saying is dont take a bulldog breed to an off-leash park...we didnt say dont socialize your dog...by all means...get to know others, have playdates that are supervised, your dog will be plenty happy with that.

My girl alexa is a rescue mutt with bulldog in her lineage somewhere lol...and I still would not take her to a dog park...I wouldnt even take any other breed to one! theres worms, parasites, and just unruly untrained dogs running there. Even if your "pitbull" doesnt start the fight, they will try to finish it...and if they do then it supports and strengthens BSL...

I have plenty of family and friends with dogs, I take alexa to play with them all the time, but do i take my eyes off of them??? NO

We are not trying to be the "blind bad guys"..we know what we are talking about. It has happened too many times...
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Old 01-04-2012, 10:06 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Simba View Post
IMO breeding and training are 2 different things. Yes the pit is the choice to fight because of their strength and dominance but pit fighter traits are programmed into the dog by humans. I don't believe there is a fighting gene in the pit that's different from any other dog. Any dog in any situation where he feels he needs to defend him self will, some till the end. Not all thou. Some will ensure their dominance and the other has to except the higher power. The difference in the pit is his strength and that's why the breed. Not because his daddy was a killa. That's just my view. Of course if a breeder is running an underground training camp for all the puppies from his fighters then I would have to agree. But not all breeders are fighting their pits.
i really want to bite my lip and just wait for this thread to fizzle. oh well.
i understand your frustration with public views of our dogs. i understand your desire for it to be different. and i give you props for taking an active role in changing the sentiment of your community.
but it seems to me your opinions, views, and beliefs are based on what you want your dog to be. and not what your dog is. it also seems you don't really grasp the genetics behind animal behavior. (nobody really has a firm grasp on inherited behavior but there are some basic rules) i will spare you the details but genetics is something i have background in. there is no single gene for any behavior. this includes aggression. it's not as simple as crossing A and B to get C. behavioral traits are way way way more complex than physical traits. too many variables.
"training" a dog to fight only gives it skill. your military experience may give you some perspective here... there are well trained fighters with great skill. and then there are those who are truly talented. individuals born with natural ability and instinctual prowess. in the case of pit bulls, historically, talent = dog aggression. sometimes talent and skill come together to create something exceedingly rare.
now imagine if only the talented and skilled individuals were allowed to reproduce for generation after generation. how that would shape not only the form but the general behavior of a population. at this point, the most fundamental building blocks of a population have been permanently changed. now there aren't any more UNtalented individuals.
that's where our dogs come from. it isn't "training" that put aggression in your dog. it was selective breeding. and "training" can't take it out. yes, behavior modification will suppress unwanted traits. but training is not passed on to offspring... "talent" is.
in my mind it's almost a contradiction that i'm still working out. but the origin of our dogs is a reality and a burden that i must accept in order to preserve it. preserving a burden is the part that i'm still working on in my head. i just don't have the words for it yet. but it's somewhere in the respect for nature. i don't want my dog to be aggressive. but i don't want him to be anything else than what he is.
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Old 01-04-2012, 10:14 AM   #59 (permalink)
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... and if you're asking yourself "what the hell is this dude talking about?" it's okay. lol. its 3am and when i read this in the morning i will probably ask the same question.
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:58 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Simba View Post
If i could strap 80lbs of gear and weapons and go across seas and defend my country from extremist groups trying to kill my fellow Americans and what we stand for, then it shouldn't be so hard for me to defend my dog in my own country. Anybody who know me can tell you that I don't lay on my back and take it. Now you can sit on your ass and settle or you can get up and do something about it.

"It isn't the breed alone, but the human behind the dog that determine behavior". Cesar Milan
If you woulda joined the Corps you woulda got more than 80lbs, and you mighta learned more.. dont make the assumption youre the only one here how has gone to fight for what we have..... both country and dogs..

youre too young to know everything.. and too old to think you still do...
why arent you listening to anyone that doesnt think like you??
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