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Old 11-26-2012, 11:22 AM   #61 (permalink)
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hotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scale
hotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scale
Your dodging every point I make. Stand by something, anything you say. First, you said your bulldog took down a moose. I begged you to repeat it, to stand by your claim that your bulldog took down what any knowledgeable hunter or outdoorsman considers the most dangerous animal in North America, an animal that outweighs your dog by at least 1,000 pounds. You didn't repeat it.

Instead, you went off on another tangent, one that may not be as far-fetched, but is equally absurd.

You said that moose ravage pasture and elk don't. Have you ever seen a herd of moose in someone's hay field? Of course not. Moose don't gather up. Why? For the same reason your dog didn't kill one. They don't need strength in large numbers. If you spend a winter in a mountain valley you'll see hundreds of elk come down from the hills and get into people's hay.

Your information couldn't be more backwards, a fact your refusing to stand by what your said attests to.

Now you're saying you "started in wolf rescue." Started when, when you jumped off the Greyhound with your slacks and colored contacts? Enough with your resume. Want credibility? Stop making appeals to authority (if you know so much about debate, you surely know that it's completely invalid logic -- especially when you're siting yourself as the source of authority).

And since we're splitting hairs over the semantics of words, there is no "irony" in you claiming to be an expert on wolves; it's par for the course. You claim to be an expert on pretty much everything you've dipped your hand in since you moved out of the city.

I've seen a million guys like you and they're damn near all the same. Big on talk, not worth their water in action. They move to the mountains, buy a "yella truck" and a swayback horse that they ride with their gator skin boots and aussie cut hats and talk too loud and introduce themselves to anyone they can corner insisting, "everyone calls me 'Big Country' round these here parts,'" thinking it makes them sound local and not foolish.

Really Big Country? How many horses have you broke? What's your family's brand? How many miles of fence have you built? How long has the oldest rifle you own been in your family? How many generations back has your family been in the area?

Let me guess: zero, don't have one, zero, don't have one, zero... you're the definition of greenhorn.

You want to be the genuine article city boy? You're going to have to tone down the tall tales and stop repeating everything you hear at the breakfast joint. Regurgitating hyperbole to impress is the first sign of a sucker.

Pits have been in my family for 5 generations. That's my appeal to authority and I'm telling you, you're story is a moose tale.

Last edited by hotchkiss; 11-26-2012 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:47 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotchkiss View Post
Your dodging every point I make. Stand by something, anything you say. First, you said your bulldog took down a moose. I begged you to repeat it, to stand by your claim that your bulldog took down what any knowledgeable hunter or outdoorsman considers the most dangerous animal in North America, an animal that outweighs your dog by at least 1,000 pounds. You didn't repeat it.

Instead, you went off on another tangent, one that may not be as far-fetched, but is equally absurd.

You said that moose ravage pasture and elk don't. Have you ever seen a herd of moose in someone's hay field? Of course not. Moose don't gather up. Why? For the same reason your dog didn't kill one. They don't need strength in large numbers. If you spend a winter in a mountain valley you'll see hundreds of elk come down from the hills and get into people's hay.

Your information couldn't be more backwards, a fact your refusing to stand by what your said attests to.

Now you're saying you "started in wolf rescue." Started when, when you jumped off the Greyhound with your slacks and colored contacts? Enough with your resume. Want credibility? Stop making appeals to authority (if you know so much about debate, you surely know that it's completely invalid logic -- especially when you're siting yourself as the source of authority).

And since we're splitting hairs over the semantics of words, there is no "irony" in you claiming to be an expert on wolves; it's par for the course. You claim to be an expert on pretty much everything you've dipped your hand in since you moved out of the city.

I've seen a million guys like you and they're damn near all the same. Big on talk, not worth their water in action. They move to the mountains, buy a "yella truck" and a swayback horse that they ride with their gator skin boots and aussie cut hats and talk too loud and introduce themselves to anyone they can corner insisting, "everyone calls me 'Big Country' round these here parts,'" thinking it makes them sound local and not foolish.

Really Big Country? How many horses have you broke? What's your family's brand? How many miles of fence have you built? How long has the oldest rifle you own been in your family? How many generations back has your family been in the area?

Let me guess: zero, don't have one, zero, don't have one, zero... you're the definition of greenhorn.

You want to be the genuine article city boy? You're going to have to tone down the tall tales and stop repeating everything you hear at the breakfast joint. Regurgitating hyperbole to impress is the first sign of a sucker.

Pits have been in my family for 5 generations. That's my appeal to authority and I'm telling you, you're story is a moose tale.
Okay, this conversation has gotten off topic and has now turned into a "mine's bigger than yours" contest. While it's true that nobody has to prove themselves here, we all know and can appreciate Firehazard for what he does around these parts, for the breed, for his dogs and for the forum. I'm just going to say this... Everyone seems to be of the same consensus here: You seem to be very "green" yourself when it comes to these dogs and their capabilities. The more you open your mouth, the more uneducated you sound. Either put up, or shut up! The original topic you posted about was about breeders lining up pedigrees versus breeding for form/function. Now we're discussing the locale in which we live (off topic). You hit the nail on the head, and admitted you recognize that Firehazard is authority around here. All of us with burgundy/maroon colored names are staff members, the bold faced names are moderators. I'm in no way threatening you, but I do recommend you mind your manners and tread lightly. I'm also recommending we turn this conversation around and get it back to the original topic at hand or it will be shut down. Firehazard is right, your posts are begging for this thread to be closed just based on your display of sheer lack of knowledge. However, I will allow it to stay open and active, given we can get it back on topic, as this can be a great learning experience for other new people. You wanna have a pissing match with someone, take it to PMs, that's what the private messaging (PM) system is for. This is the only warning I will give. Thank you, in advance, for EVERYONE'S cooperation.
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"In this breed, there's no such thing as an expert! The day someone says they're an expert, they need to walk away from the dogs, because someone's going to get hurt. You should be learning something new every day." John Maynard-Circle M Kennels

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Old 11-26-2012, 02:18 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Hahaha... more drama ... what are you upset about? People who anger you control you.. just sayin. This is a waste of time and (SIGH) ....

Dodged your points? you haven't made any. Just slinggin .. I've answered every question.

By the way I don't breed for pedigree I breed for the dog.. Pedigree is the DNA map of the dog and should be honest to the dog.

You done making a vain and calloused attempt at calling me out? I have documented a good deal here on GPB, my methods and way of managing dogs works 9 of 10 times. When I give simple advice it works because it simple truth. I've been in genetic debates with some of the old timers here and proved everyone wrong even myself. I've answered anything you can throw at me..

Really Really off topic ... because of your personal feelings towards me.. Stay on topic and keep your personal conflict to yourself.
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Last edited by Firehazard; 11-26-2012 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:35 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
Hahaha... more drama ... what are you upset about? People who anger you control you.. just sayin. This is a waste of time however I'll answer your post just so I don't dodge you calling me out on my moose stories.. and (SIGH) ....

Dodged your points? you haven't made any. Just slinggin .. I've answered every question.

By the way I don't breed for pedigree I breed for the dog.. Pedigree is the DNA map of the dog and should be honest to the dog.

You done making a vain and calloused attempt at calling me out? I have documented a good deal here on GPB, my methods and way of managing dogs works 9 of 10 times. When I give simple advice it works because it simple truth. I've been in genetic debates with some of the old timers here and proved everyone wrong even myself. I've answered anything you can throw at me..

Really Really off topic ... because of your personal feelings towards me.. Stay on topic and keep your personal conflict to yourself.
Yet again, I have to spread the love before I can rep you (much like you, I don't hand it out that often)... but I just have to say... lol. I smell a dirty cur somewhere on the yard! You don't have to prove yourself, you chose to do that long ago, and that's how you got where you are now. Trust me, I know from experience too. And when I get rep from you, I know I've earned it. Thank you for gracing us with your presence and knowledge.
__________________
You didn't lose your girl, you just lost your turn!

"In this breed, there's no such thing as an expert! The day someone says they're an expert, they need to walk away from the dogs, because someone's going to get hurt. You should be learning something new every day." John Maynard-Circle M Kennels

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Old 11-26-2012, 02:45 PM   #65 (permalink)
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hotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scale
hotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scale
Insulting me doesn't not disprove the validity of my argument. It's called an ad hominem argument. Adjective like "uneducated" and "green" do nothing to contradict what I've said. In fact, it gives what I've said more weight because it means you can not discredit my claims by further the merits of yours, so you resort to personal attacks.

But, to get back on track I'll simplify my original post and break it down into a deductive argument. If any sentence below is false, the conclusion of my argument is invalid. Tell me which sentence is false.

1) Fighting dogs in the U.S. is illegal.
2) Without testing or matching a dog, you can't evaluate gameness in the traditional sense of the word -- hog and bear hunting dogs are a different conversation.
3) So, unless a breeder is doing something illegal or importing their dogs from a country where fighting is legal, that breeder can't honestly say whether the dogs in their yard do or don't have game.
Conclusion: No breeder that doesn't break the law or import their dogs can say whether their dogs are or aren't game.

In addition, I made the following argument:
1) Game was the desired trait, far more so than structure, when dogs were bred to fight.
2) As a result, form followed function -- if a dog had heart and could finish it was bred. So, the gene pool was filled with winners and winners only.
3) Today, form is the desired trait -- dogs that look like they can win, because breeding for game is illegal, a consequence of matching dogs being an illegal act (see argument above).
4) Conclusion: as a result of today's breeding directives -- form, not function, we have bastardized the breed into things like Staffies and Bullies and Lap Hippos...
5) Meanwhile people are still saying, "the UKC APBT is the only true pit bull" when in reality, the true pit bulls only resides in those countries where form is determined by function -- fighting -- not selective human breeding.

Now, see if you can counter those two arguments without using colorful adjectives to attack me -- a person you know nothing about. Attack the argument. Attacking me with colorful adjectives doesn't validate your contentions.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:48 PM   #66 (permalink)
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hotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scale
hotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scalehotchkiss is off the scale
Ahhh, how romantic! Definitely on topic! You two should get together and share some chocolate mousse! You're dogs can bake it for you!

Last edited by hotchkiss; 11-26-2012 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:56 PM   #67 (permalink)
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You were warned............................................ .... and you attempted to get back on track however it is clear your emotions are not gonna let that happen...
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Last edited by Firehazard; 11-26-2012 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:55 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Wow you seriously miss read what people hear are saying and I think your confused. As I said before, the APBT is not a breed that's bred for form over function and if breeders are breeding that way they aren't breeding true APBTs. No one ever said the UKC "APBT" is the only real APBT. We all know that the UKC registers AmStaffs and AmBullies as APBT and most of us are quite aware of the differences in breeds. The ADBA is the better registry for APBTs, while,yes, they do duel reg. dogs, when going into the show ring the judges hold true to the original APBT standard and your not going to see AmBullies and AmStaffs champing out as they do in UKC because they are not APBTs and just don't fit the standard.

Just because matching dog in the US is illegal doesn't mean that they're aren't game dogs left in the world. Matching dogs is legal in many other countries, and yes dogs get imported all the time. Another thing, just because its illigal doesn't mean these dogs have no purpose left and are bred solely for structure. They are still a working breed. Many breeders are still breeding for working ability over structure so to say they are now just a breed with no purpose and are bred for form over function is incorrect. Wether it's Hunting, WP, PP, Agility ect., these dogs are still being bred to preform a function, not just to stand in a ring looking pretty. Structure is only part of the equation when breeding, not all of it. Of course if you have a dog with bad structure it can't perform a task as well as a dog with better structure but the assumption that this is all their being bred for is totally false.



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Old 11-26-2012, 04:34 PM   #69 (permalink)
 
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^^^great !

I am one who will always argue the importance of structure. But no it shouod never be the first thing bred for. While I firmly believe a good well buit dog would beat an equally good flawed dog. I do realize this is not apways the case. More often then not it is. Many of the greatest dog had a good build. No probabpy not perfect but were extremely flawed either. Sorry this thread had to turn bad could have been a good one...
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