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Old 01-21-2016, 02:42 PM   #46 (permalink)
 
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An old member Sade posted this a long time ago. And it really hit home when I read it.

So I copied and pasted the original post and the link to the thread is underneath it.


"A Day At The Park

He is just like other dogs I would always say; He loves to go to
the dog park to play every day

Everyone loves him there, so it's ok; My dog won't fight--he
wasn't raised that way

But then one day, right before dark, A troubled young man
came into the park

He had by his side the biggest dog I'd ever seen, And
unfortunately for us, both were quite mean

We asked very nicely if they would just go; The dog answered
with a snarl and the man with a harsh "NO!"

Well his dog was a terror, threatening to all; Then he started a
fight with a Lab over a ball

They fought pretty hard and the man would not intervene;
Then here comes my dog and pushes right in between

He grabbed that big dog and thrashed him around; And with
one quick jerk threw him down on the ground

The Lab was able to escape; I heard everyone cheer; But my
dog was now in a frenzy and would not let me near

When he finally let go, what I saw stopped my heart; That big
mean dog had been torn apart

The authorities were called, the big dog was now dead; But
they didn't take the big dog; they took my dog instead

We all tried to explain that my dog saved the day; But because
of his breed he was taken away

You see my dog was a Pit bull and they don't get any breaks;
One small incident is all that it takes

A dog had died; And though he hadn't started the fight, My dog
was held responsible for what happened that night

He was deemed a danger to all and sentenced to death; And I
hold him now as he takes his last breath

It's my fault that my dog is being killed today; Please listen for
a moment to what I am going to say

Everyone warned me about his potential to fight; I said it won't
happen, I am raising him right

And now my dog is paying the ultimate price; Because I was
stubborn and wouldn't take the advice

He only did what he was bred to do; Learn from our story;
don't let it happen to you."


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Old 01-28-2016, 03:27 AM   #47 (permalink)
 

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I'm sorry but as someone that's worked at a Doggy daycare for years, this is incredibly offensive to me. Many of our best dogs are pitbull, and I've never had anything remotely similar to a dog 'changing his mind' that dogs are friends. Certainly new behaviors crop up between the age of 0 and 2, but dogs are dogs and they always tell you what they're capable of if you listen.
We've had to kick out a number if dogs, but we've actually never had to kick out a Pit, at least not since I've been there. I'm certainly not saying every APBT belongs at a dog park, or that ANY dog with high prey drive doesn't need to be monitored closely, and meet with a behaviorist to access behavior around other dogs. But it's stuff like this that leads to dog parks and daycares from banning all breeds, and so many of yours get and GIVE so much from being with Doggy pals that a I cannot not reply to this.
Maybe more pure-bred show line APBTs are dog aggressive, but some pits and Pit mixes can get on well with other dogs, and aren't all Pit advocates for judging a dog based on personality rather than Breed?
If we have elderly Pit mixes who have literally never had an incident at the park or daycare they regularly frequent (rare with any dog of any Breed!), how is it right to suggest they should no longer be a part of that enriching peice of their life because you are letting Breed trump personality?
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Old 01-28-2016, 03:34 AM   #48 (permalink)
 

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Okay I confess I got angry and posted before finishing the OP. If the issue is with dog parks, I get that. I've been to afraid to takey girl to a dig park even though she's wonderful at daycare. I'm worried about the owners who think they have a friendly dog, but miss the subtleties of dog interaction.
I just to make we don't think the issue is friendly pits in a multidog environment. That can be wonderful. Dog parks are the issue not pits being dogs, that is what is being conveyed then?
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Old 01-28-2016, 04:29 AM   #49 (permalink)
 
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Both. You have a breed with a genetic tendency toward dog aggression, that also has other specific traits that make fights even more potentially deadly, then you have an uncontrolled, chaotic environment. Bad combo.
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Old 01-28-2016, 05:00 AM   #50 (permalink)
 

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Okay fair enough. I must say though a lot of Breed traits can make things more deadly. One of the reasons I'm afraid to take Wren to dog park: there have been TWO deaths at are local dog park, and it's a very good dig community. One was greyhound that grabbed and broke the neck of a small fluffy dog (if you're familiar with Breed, this will make sense.) I just feel strongly that any dog, pitbull or no, who socializes well with other dogs has the opportunity to do so in a controlled and relatively stable environment, although the environment may not be a dog park. I have heard that some dog parks are well poloced though, so I don't think it's quite right to condemn every Pit at every park, although I confess I'm leary of them in general.
One other thing: there is no breed that inheritely does well in a dog park. Labs are to hyper and over-bearing, Goldens too nerve-y, Boxers just insane in general, Collies try and herd. One of my worst bites was a Lab that got me accidentally trying to go after a Pit without provocation, my boyfriend briefly worked with me and his only noteworthy bite was from a Tree-Walking Hound that bite him HARD and ON PURPOSE that resulted in an ER visit.
My point is any Breed can be dog aggressive, or just aggressive, just as a dog of any breed can be great with dogs or humans.
That being said I'm not saying I think dog parks are a splendid or safe idea.
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Old 01-28-2016, 05:02 AM   #51 (permalink)
 

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Please excuse my grammar still learning to type on my phone... apologies....
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Old 01-28-2016, 02:09 PM   #52 (permalink)
 
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I'm anti-dog park in general, so I get what you're saying.
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Old 01-29-2016, 07:25 PM   #53 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy.klo View Post
.
My point is any Breed can be dog aggressive, or just aggressive, just as a dog of any breed can be great with dogs or humans.
That being said I'm not saying I think dog parks are a splendid or safe idea.
Sure, any dog can show aggression towards other animals, but that's not the point. As you probably know, all dog breeds are a product of selective breeding. Border Collies were bred to herd, Labs were bred to retrieve, Dobermans were bred to guard. The APBT is no different. Yet, people constantly deny the breed's heritage. The APBT was bred for dog on dog combat. Whether you like it or not, your dog's ancestors weren't "nanny dogs" or farm dogs. They were pit dogs.

Now, contrary to common belief pit dogs weren't really "trained" to fight. The fighting instinct was already there, embedded in the dog. I've heard of breeders having to separate APBT pups as young as 6 months old, because they kept squabbling. No matter how hard you try, you will never be able to undo centuries of selective breeding.

Does this mean that every APBT is dog aggression? No, of course not. But, these dogs are the exception, not the rule. You shouldn't be surprised when an APBT shows dog aggression, you should be surprised when he doesn't.

Now to throw some personal experience in here, let me tell you about my dog, Bindi. Bindi is a mutt. She wasn't bred for any purpose. She's a result of two random stray dogs deciding to do the dirty. As a puppy, I socialized her about as much as I possibly could. I introduced her to other dogs, let kids pet her, took her places, you get the point. Everything was great, until one day. I was introducing Bindi to a friend's shih tzu, when she decided he needed to die. She lunged at him, teeth bared and basically tried to eat him. I felt like an absolute failure as a dog owner. Like the little Victoria Stillwell wannabe I was, I decided to "rehabilitate" her.

Yeah. Bad idea. Bindi wanted no part of it. Bindi was still convinced that every dog in existence was terrible and needed to die. After several failed attempts, I realized that I wasn't getting anywhere. So, I ended up just training her to ignore other dogs and I stopped forcing her to interact with other animals. Worked like a charm.

My point is, if I can't get rid of dog aggression in my scatterbred mutt, how on earth could someone get rid of dog aggression in an APBT that comes from countless generations of fighting dogs?

Sorry for the wall of text. Got a little carried away.

tl;dr: always expect a bulldog to fight.
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Last edited by Kenaii; 01-29-2016 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 01-29-2016, 09:34 PM   #54 (permalink)
 
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Thanks for taking the time to explain it Kenaii. Good post. Hopefully, it won't fall on deaf ears.

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Old 02-13-2016, 01:46 AM   #55 (permalink)
 

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Kenaii, I do totally get what you're saying. And I agree that pure-bred pits from a stringent breeding program are somewhat more likely to be dog-aggressive. I've seen this as well, absolutely.
You should also know many pure-bred herding breeds, high-strung breeds, and certain high-energy breeds are also less likely to be good with other dogs as well, not to mention Northern breeds whom are more pack oriented in a way that does not befit having casual dog friends, and any Breed with wild dog or wolf content. I've actually had to fail more dogs based on herding instincts than flat out dog aggression.
The reason in my opinion? Before any dogs were bred to be dog aggressive, there was millions of years that evolution 'bred' wolves and dogs to not try and kill any member of their species. Even a few thousand years of rigorous dog-aggressive breeding couldn't fully 'cancel' that out. The need to NOT kill every member of the dog family is too thoroughly engrained. Anyway, APBT s have only been around for a few hundred years, an incredibly new breed.
Also, most 'pits' I'm talking about were NOT rigorously bred. Maybe their ancestors of a hundreds years ago were for a few generations, but the even the everyday APBT is the result of back-yard breeding that gives no credence to gameness, or any other factor really. Most aren't even purebred.

Do I think an actual well-bred pure APBT, Bull Terrier or AmStaff is more likely to be dog aggressive. Yes. Is a pure-bred Border Collie even more likely to be unsuitable for other dogs because of their intense herding instincts? Also yes.
However, most current breeds are very new in terms of evolution, ESPECIALLY pits, and evolution can never be fully cancelled out, not even close in a few hundred years. I recognize that some Pit dogs may be dog-aggressive despite the best possible environmental factors, but if we're talking ALL pits, this is NOT the norm.

It is also my belief that the characteristics that made pits able to fight well was just as often a willingness to follow their human, whatever was asked, or a high prey drive paired with high-energy and game. These traits would occur much more often than a desire to kill every member of his or her species, a trait that would be very uncommon due to it making it more or less impossible to pass on one's DNA.

I have many personal anecdotes as well, too many to type, but I'd be happy to share some if you would like. I'm sorry that you happen to have one if the few unlucky mixes that happens to have pure dog-aggression, despite perfect socialization. I know this sometimes occurs, and can with any Breed, but it is not the norm.

This being said, any breeds characteristics should always be kept in mind, as well as a breeds intended purpose.

Tl;Dr; Evolution millions of years in the making is not going to be written over in a few hundred years of crappy breeding.
Give me a few hundred years of the most strict breeding, I still won't be able to create a green dog...

Last edited by Sandy.klo; 02-13-2016 at 02:15 AM.
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Old 02-13-2016, 07:40 PM   #56 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy.klo View Post
Kenaii, I do totally get what you're saying. And I agree that pure-bred pits from a stringent breeding program are somewhat more likely to be dog-aggressive. I've seen this as well, absolutely.
You should also know many pure-bred herding breeds, high-strung breeds, and certain high-energy breeds are also less likely to be good with other dogs as well, not to mention Northern breeds whom are more pack oriented in a way that does not befit having casual dog friends, and any Breed with wild dog or wolf content. I've actually had to fail more dogs based on herding instincts than flat out dog aggression.
The reason in my opinion? Before any dogs were bred to be dog aggressive, there was millions of years that evolution 'bred' wolves and dogs to not try and kill any member of their species. Even a few thousand years of rigorous dog-aggressive breeding couldn't fully 'cancel' that out. The need to NOT kill every member of the dog family is too thoroughly engrained. Anyway, APBT s have only been around for a few hundred years, an incredibly new breed.
Also, most 'pits' I'm talking about were NOT rigorously bred. Maybe their ancestors of a hundreds years ago were for a few generations, but the even the everyday APBT is the result of back-yard breeding that gives no credence to gameness, or any other factor really. Most aren't even purebred.

Do I think an actual well-bred pure APBT, Bull Terrier or AmStaff is more likely to be dog aggressive. Yes. Is a pure-bred Border Collie even more likely to be unsuitable for other dogs because of their intense herding instincts? Also yes.
However, most current breeds are very new in terms of evolution, ESPECIALLY pits, and evolution can never be fully cancelled out, not even close in a few hundred years. I recognize that some Pit dogs may be dog-aggressive despite the best possible environmental factors, but if we're talking ALL pits, this is NOT the norm.

It is also my belief that the characteristics that made pits able to fight well was just as often a willingness to follow their human, whatever was asked, or a high prey drive paired with high-energy and game. These traits would occur much more often than a desire to kill every member of his or her species, a trait that would be very uncommon due to it making it more or less impossible to pass on one's DNA.

I have many personal anecdotes as well, too many to type, but I'd be happy to share some if you would like. I'm sorry that you happen to have one if the few unlucky mixes that happens to have pure dog-aggression, despite perfect socialization. I know this sometimes occurs, and can with any Breed, but it is not the norm.

This being said, any breeds characteristics should always be kept in mind, as well as a breeds intended purpose.

Tl;Dr; Evolution millions of years in the making is not going to be written over in a few hundred years of crappy breeding.
Give me a few hundred years of the most strict breeding, I still won't be able to create a green dog...
Of course. Dogs are social animals and, to an extent will always display those social behaviors. The thing is, the APBT can show those behaviors, but is also likely to show dog aggression. I am not saying that an APBT is incapable of being friendly with other dogs, I'm simply saying that you can't really know when an APBT is going to act like a social pack animal or a fighting dog. And you can't really know until it's too late. Because of this, it just too risky to put your dog in that position.
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Old 02-15-2016, 03:41 AM   #57 (permalink)
 

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Respectfully, I disagree. A lot of people on these forums have 'pits' that are of questionable bloodline, or mixed breeds and even of those that are solid bloodline APBTs, many of them would do great in a multidog environment.
I can't help but think you are personally biased based on your experience with Bindi. Certainly, sometimes a well socialized dog will start displaying new aggressive tendencies once reaching adulthood, but it is generally mild and 'curable,' and I have never ever seen anything even close to what you say happened with Bindi. To be honest, I think there must be SOMETHING you are missing in regards to her sudden and complete transformation from dog-friendly to dog-aggressive... When dogs begun displaying new dominant or aggressive traits because of the onset of adulthood, it is usually VERY gradual.
I've seen hundreds of puppies grow into full fledged adults, and pits don't do it any differently than the other breeds. They have high energy, and are very into leadership, like many of the breeds, both traits have their own set of obstacles, and some dogs of every breed may BECOME incompatible with multi dog environment when they reacted well as a young adult. In my experience it's actually more likely to be the working dogs rather than any dog of the Terrier class.
What I'm saying is any dog of certain breed may have breed-specific qualities that make the dog unable to socialize with multiple dogs at once, but that doesn't mean none should. It means it should be done carefully, and with great care.
People often mention to me how dogs are so 'unpredictable.' This is NOT so. People who say this are people that have little insight into the language of dogs. I absolutely don't believe that any well-behaved dog of any Breed will 'snap' out of nowhere and go crazy with aggression, and I have never ever been proved wrong. There are many Pit clients I work with that U would stake my life upon never fighting another dog. In my years working in a multidog environment, not one of those pits or the other dogs I feel the same about has done so.

That being said I'm not sure I support the average dog park for any dog, I just think it's wrong to tell people that their dog who has displayed a consistent pattern for years may all of a sudden decide it wants to kill other dogs. That is not true.
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Old 02-15-2016, 03:51 AM   #58 (permalink)
 

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I'm sorry to type so much but this is ludicrous to me. I wouldn't allow any pro-BSL folks to tell me you can never know when a Pit will become aggressive, and I'm sorry, but I'm not okay with a Pit owner saying it either.
When owning ANY large powerful dog you need to be aware of your dogs limitations, cautious, knowledge about factors that may cause changes (such as age), and above all you need to know your dog.
I'm very sorry if things happened with Bindi like you claim, that she all of a sudden out of nowhere, in one very very short time period went from loving all dogs to wanting to kill all of them. However, I suspect there is more to it, or at the very least some exaggeration. I respect that you want to warn other people about a fear you have, but at the very least you need to understand that if things happened like you said with Bindi, that is so uncommon it's almost unheard of.
Can dogs become aggressive? Sure. If you take the appropriate precautions is it still safe to allow your dog to socialize in very controlled environment? Heck yes.
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Old 02-15-2016, 04:18 AM   #59 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy.klo View Post
I'm sorry to type so much but this is ludicrous to me. I wouldn't allow any pro-BSL folks to tell me you can never know when a Pit will become aggressive, and I'm sorry, but I'm not okay with a Pit owner saying it either.
When owning ANY large powerful dog you need to be aware of your dogs limitations, cautious, knowledge about factors that may cause changes (such as age), and above all you need to know your dog.
I'm very sorry if things happened with Bindi like you claim, that she all of a sudden out of nowhere, in one very very short time period went from loving all dogs to wanting to kill all of them. However, I suspect there is more to it, or at the very least some exaggeration. I respect that you want to warn other people about a fear you have, but at the very least you need to understand that if things happened like you said with Bindi, that is so uncommon it's almost unheard of.
Can dogs become aggressive? Sure. If you take the appropriate precautions is it still safe to allow your dog to socialize in very controlled environment? Heck yes.
Oh boy. Where do I begin?

First of all, I'm not "Pro BSL". I absolutely love this breed. Just because I'm willing to admit that the APBT has certain tendencies, doesn't mean I love the breed any less. For Christ's sake, it's in the breed standard for an APBT to show some level of dog aggression.

Of course any dog can develop dog aggression, APBTs are just much more likely to display it. Why? Because they were bred specifically for fighting. Not all of them display it, but most do. It's a very common trait in the breed and it always has been.

I didn't exaggerate my story about Bindi at all. As for it being uncommon, similar things have happened with other dogs I've owned and I've heard countless stories of it happening to other people. In drivey dogs, it's far from uncommon. Bindi's a great dog and I love her to death, but if I unhooked her leash and another dog happened to walk by, she'd go after the dog without hesitating. Same thing would happen with a cat, rabbit or any other animal. Luckily, I'm a (mostly) competent dog trainer and I know how to handle her.

Again, I'm not saying all APBTs are dog aggressive. I'm simply saying that it is a very common trait in the breed and as a responsible owner, you shouldn't be surprised when/if it pops up.
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Old 02-16-2016, 12:38 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Sandy, I'm not saying your dog is agressive or not. You may handle the dog just fine, but don't think for a minute that if another dog started something with yours, your dog will step up and finish it. Then you are responsible and your animal is just another statistic and worse.... Not to mention your wallet will be a whole lot emptier
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