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Old 08-04-2010, 01:20 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Shes Got Heart View Post
When the American Staffordshire Terrier was created, it was only a name change. There was nothing added. The dogs may have been bred for exaggerated features and show ring. But thats basically just a new bloodline. Even APBT's very in look and temperament through bloodlines. I am not one to agree that a dual reg pitterstaff is a mix breed. If nothing was ever added to the blood, than American Staffies are APBT's. Thats my opinion on the whole situation. Amstaff is just a name for a different style of pit bull in my opinion. Although I will call them as such.
I'd have to agree with this. And everything came from somewhere and has been mixed with so much "other" blood it's diluted to the point of everything and everyone is a "mutt" really. Just as we are. LOL
I use to laugh at people that boasted their horse "has Three Bars" in their pedigree, well he got bred to just about anything and everything. He is a foundation sire but not recognized as foundation blood. Because he's not a QH. Or my horse is out of so and so when it was so far back in the line that he may have one tenth of one drop of blood in him. I know some registries that is devoted to preservation goes back four generations and some ten. Either case if certain blood is there for all those generations it's not only registered but foundation. I'd think a UKC or ADBA or whatever or AS or APBT would be the same.
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:40 PM   #47 (permalink)
 

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The AST and APBT for the most part are the same dog, except for one key factor that makes an APBT, GAMENESS. It's about the same as having a beagle bred for the show ring and a beagle bred for field trials. One is bred for looks and the other is bred for what the breed was intended for.
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:57 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ralford08 View Post
The AST and APBT for the most part are the same dog, except for one key factor that makes an APBT, GAMENESS. It's about the same as having a beagle bred for the show ring and a beagle bred for field trials. One is bred for looks and the other is bred for what the breed was intended for.
How can the dogs be the same if they serve two different functions? it's like saying a labrador and a hogdog are the same but they do different jobs.
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Old 08-04-2010, 03:05 PM   #49 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by davidfitness83 View Post
How can the dogs be the same if they serve two different functions? it's like saying a labrador and a hogdog are the same but they do different jobs.

Not the same.
Certain traits are bred in from certain dogs,( hard mouth, smaller size, more correct head, etc) Some of these traits are more important to one job over the other. Doesn't deviate enough from the standard to make one a different breed. Function isn't the only qualification of a breed, I'm sure some Huskies have never pulled a sled. Doesn't make them poodles.
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Old 08-04-2010, 03:13 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bullydogla View Post
Not the same.
Certain traits are bred in from certain dogs,( hard mouth, smaller size, more correct head, etc) Some of these traits are more important to one job over the other. Doesn't deviate enough from the standard to make one a different breed. Function isn't the only qualification of a breed, I'm sure some Huskies have never pulled a sled. Doesn't make them poodles.
Have you seen what an amstaff looks like compared to a APBT? Or how they differ in temperament? How can anyone claim an amstaff is the same as an APBT?
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Old 08-04-2010, 03:19 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bullydogla View Post
Not the same.
Certain traits are bred in from certain dogs,( hard mouth, smaller size, more correct head, etc) Some of these traits are more important to one job over the other. Doesn't deviate enough from the standard to make one a different breed. Function isn't the only qualification of a breed, I'm sure some Huskies have never pulled a sled. Doesn't make them poodles.
don't knock the poodle they hold the record in the ukc in weight pull for body weight.
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Old 08-04-2010, 03:22 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BLUE PIT BULL MAN View Post
don't knock the poodle they hold the record in the ukc in weight pull for body weight.
Hell a poodle is top 3 of the smartest breeds in the world. Are you serious about that by the way?
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Old 08-04-2010, 03:24 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by coppermare View Post
I'd have to agree with this. And everything came from somewhere and has been mixed with so much "other" blood it's diluted to the point of everything and everyone is a "mutt" really. Just as we are. LOL
I use to laugh at people that boasted their horse "has Three Bars" in their pedigree, well he got bred to just about anything and everything. He is a foundation sire but not recognized as foundation blood. Because he's not a QH. Or my horse is out of so and so when it was so far back in the line that he may have one tenth of one drop of blood in him. I know some registries that is devoted to preservation goes back four generations and some ten. Either case if certain blood is there for all those generations it's not only registered but foundation. I'd think a UKC or ADBA or whatever or AS or APBT would be the same.
Which is why the breeding of the apbt really needs to be left to the people who are dedicated to preserving the breed, who can line breed and bring out the good traits and know enough not to line breed to close on certain lines.

This is a decent pedigree not all scattered

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Old 08-04-2010, 03:25 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ralford08 View Post
The AST and APBT for the most part are the same dog, except for one key factor that makes an APBT, GAMENESS. It's about the same as having a beagle bred for the show ring and a beagle bred for field trials. One is bred for looks and the other is bred for what the breed was intended for.
Actually an AKC registered American Staffordshire Terrier that has no UKC blood in it ped is no longer an APBT. That AST has been out of the APBT gene pool since 1936 and breed to a different standard and for a different purpose. Ask 99% of AST owners and breeders if their dog is a Pit Bull they’ll proudly say “No, it’s an AmStaff”. You also won’t see AKC registered Breeders trying to sell their AST’s a Pit Bulls. The late Jane Rebello a rather well know AST breed back in the 70’s & 80’s was always very bothered by Dual Registered Dogs. She said those were Pit Bulls and not an AST.

Last edited by Elvisfink; 08-04-2010 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 08-04-2010, 03:29 PM   #55 (permalink)
 

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Genetically the AST and APBT are the same, but in my personal opinion they are not. I don't like anything that is bred for show and show only. If I wanted to spend money on something that just looks good I would buy a statue. Most breeds of dogs in the world are capable of doing more than one task, look at the APBT and all the different jobs it does. That's why you have different bloodlines in a breed, becuase people desire certain traits more than others so they breed their dogs accordingly.

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Old 08-04-2010, 03:29 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by davidfitness83 View Post
Have you seen what an amstaff looks like compared to a APBT? Or how they differ in temperament? How can anyone claim an amstaff is the same as an APBT?
I see the difference in looks now but from what I'm learning they started out the same dog. The same bloodlines. Then they were developed over a period of time differently. This is what is confusing to me now. If they all had the same blood to begin with then how can someone say some are mutts while others are not. Unless of course somewhere people mixed another breed entirely into the mix. I've been researching (or trying to it's really confusing to me) bloodlines and beginnings of the "bullies" and such but theres just not enough info with so many different registeries and so many different opinions and therories. I read something today that led me to believe some of the very old lines did indeed have blue in them and the "game people" culled them even though they had a lot of gameness in them while the people that went towards Amstaffs and AKC kept them therefore it was bred out.
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Old 08-04-2010, 03:45 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ralford08 View Post
Genetically the AST and APBT are the same, but in my personel opinion they are not. I don't like anything that is bred for show and show only. If I wanted to spend money on something that just looks good I would buy a statue. Most breeds of dogs in the world are capable of doing more than one task, look at the APBT and all the different jobs it does. That's why you have different bloodlines in a breed, becuase people desire certain traits more than others so they breed their dogs accordingly.
Genetically Manny Paquiao and my self are the same because we are both human but that doesn't mean I am a proffesional boxer.

All dogs share the same DNA i tink 98% but someone please feel free to correct me on this number, for the most part a toy poodle and a Central Asian Ovcharka have very similar DNA but that doesn't mean they are the same.
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Old 08-04-2010, 03:53 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I'm finding this website very interesting. And from the looks of some of the old pics, and pics I'm seeing in pedigrees, there seemed to be a HUGE variation in breed standard.

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Old 08-04-2010, 03:59 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by gamer View Post
Which is why the breeding of the apbt really needs to be left to the people who are dedicated to preserving the breed, who can line breed and bring out the good traits and know enough not to line breed to close on certain lines.

This is a decent pedigree not all scattered

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That could be good or bad I guess. So many people have so many different opinions as to their likes, dislikes, and needs. We are human you know, no matter what a standard is. If quarterhorses were left to only those wanting to preserve the breed which would we pick to preserve it...the one's that want only the ole bulldog type, steeldust type horse which they consider foundation and probably could not do various other sports demanded of them now days or the appendix type people that believe introducing the TB blood gives them that athletic ability to compete in jumping, larger barrel racing patterns, faster times, and various other sports demanding a leaner taller build??
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Old 08-04-2010, 04:10 PM   #60 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by BLUE PIT BULL MAN View Post
don't knock the poodle they hold the record in the ukc in weight pull for body weight.
There's a famous sled guy who ran a team of standard poodles in the Ididarod many times. They were outlawed in the race after a few years because it was deemed cruel as they do not have a coat designed to protect them in those elements, and I believe several died or lost toes and such. I personally don't care for poodles, but they are excellent working dogs, and extremely versatile.

I have found that the general consensus of akc people is that the ASTs and APBTs are the same breed (most likely actual AST breeders would disagree, but people in other breeds are who I'm referring to). My grandmother, who was an akc show breeder told me they are the same, and that APBTs were dogs that had no papers because they were from fighting lines, so a fake registry (UKC) was created to register them. She thoroughly believes this, she is not just saying it to be mean or difficult, as do her friends, and they think that UKC is a crap registry. I think one of the reasons for this bias is that the AKC seems to attract an older crowd and they were passing this kind of info on based on word of mouth, because when they were learning there was internet to easily and quickly research things. Even the younger generation probably believes some of this stuff because it has been "common knowledge" for so long that no one would think to question it. My grandmother in her 80s, as well as several of her friends in the same age group, plus my handler trainer who is also in his 80s all believe AST and APBT are the same.
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