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Old 08-10-2010, 08:10 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LionsGate View Post
For those that are interested...

Iron Cross was banned because a DNA challenge was filed on a litter that was registered to Roman Vaughn, owner of Iron Cross Kennels. The DNA challenge proved that the sire he listed on the paperwork was not the actual sire of the litter.

It had nothing to do with the UKC questioning whether their dogs lineage were "true" or not.

I know this for fact, because I filed the DNA challenge. And I may be filing another one very soon.

Also, for those who want to bash on all "XL Bully Breeders" - note that some of us are very up front about the fact that there was mixing that went on in pretty much every bloodline that is considered XL or XXL at some point. There are those of us who are willing to admit what WAS done, and are trying to move forward and bring the look back to the dogs, rather than continue the problem and breed more bandogges into our blood....to that point, I say this - one of the first APBT's I ever owned was a 42lb red/rednose game bred rescue. One of the best dogs I ever owned. I know full well what a true APBT is. And I love everything about them. But I wanted them on a larger frame, without sacrificing the movement, agility, drive, or attitude of the true APBT...I certainly have not yet perfected my vision, but I am working on it.

Oh, and if you don't believe my dogs can move, check my YouTube - Search 'lionsgatekennels'.
You have large working bulldogs, but they aren't game dogs and APBTs are game dogs.



Colby's says in his book, "there are ppl taking the largest APBT inbreeding them to form what they call the American Bulldog..."

Colby is saying that they are inbreeding the largest APBTs together, that is selective breeding just for size.. Large game dogs come up too but not steady because they are breeding for game a mentality not SIZE, we see out of BINGO, OFRN, and other game dogs and lines there are dogs 75 and a lil more, IMO I agree with Stratton, & Flieg, if a ABPT is over 80 then we should consider it a mastiff... ALL APBTs that push 90+ and WHoppers and XXL are definitely mastiffs IMO (bandogs if you need a softer term) they aint game dogs that for sure and the little fircracker with level a big dog in minutes, and sorry for the lingo but APBTs are game, period.. That was proven with Parkers Bouncer who was the sire to the WHopper dog lineage, and who was defeated by a little 45lbs stick of dynamite.
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Last edited by Firehazard; 08-10-2010 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 08-10-2010, 08:20 PM   #122 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by kg420 View Post
I totally agree here 100%

Yes it has been proven that they did lie and hang papers. They proved it with the DNA-P test. They were the ones being shady hanging papers and ripping people off, false advertising and faking stats.
I think they shouldn't register any pups off of any of those dogs.
with which of their dogs?.. all of them, one of them? i'm not trying to argue i'm just curious.
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Old 08-10-2010, 08:31 PM   #123 (permalink)
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The Whopper dogs, they way I understand it, is just another example of blatant misrepresentation on the UKC's part. Like I said, they've been letting this go on for years and years. ICK is not the first.
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Old 08-10-2010, 08:31 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by j-crash View Post
with which of their dogs?.. all of them, one of them? i'm not trying to argue i'm just curious.
Many a dog men feel the same way about whopper, and any other dog carrying APBT paperwork or founded by APBT paperwork.. Just FYI, Tudors, Carver, and several others were rumored to have rung dogs, but I guess it didn't matter for those dogs who had to be PROVEN to be APBTs and the AKC AST use to be virtually the same dog with certain cosmetic requirements.. PEOPLE and what WE think we can perfect perfection..
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Old 08-10-2010, 08:35 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
Many a dog men feel the same way about whopper, and any other dog carrying APBT paperwork or founded by APBT paperwork.. Just FYI, Tudors, Carver, and several others were rumored to have rung dogs, but I guess it didn't matter for those dogs who had to be PROVEN to be APBTs and the AKC AST use to be virtually the same dog with certain cosmetic requirements.. PEOPLE and what WE think we can perfect perfection..

Very true. IMO the pit bull is a type of dog. Not a breed.
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Old 08-10-2010, 09:06 PM   #126 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by coppermare View Post
Probably because of the downhill spiral of crap it will cause. How many people will demand money back, dump dogs, sue, fight, whoaaaaaa what a mess it would be!!! I understand how you feel about it not being right, but they aren't willing to go through the red tape it would cause maybe.
There is a solution though if they tried hard enough.
Not UKCs fault that they were duped, Maybe requiring DNA on stud dogs and bitches that have more than one breeding a year or something will help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by j-crash View Post
the problem is though, that if they think ick i lying about certain dogs ped's (which they most likely are) they still can't prove it. or what about some of their earlier dogs maybe there was not mixing then, and maybe you have one of those dogs several generation back in your ped (hypothetically) it would be unfair to pull your papers
... innocent until proven guilty, and the problem is they can't really prove them guilty. stop allowing them to register new pups i agree with, but pulling papers from dogs that are several years old (heck some are probably dead) seems silly.
The proved it on these two dogs and I am sure they wont stop there everyone is going to want to have their dogs tested
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Old 08-10-2010, 09:55 PM   #127 (permalink)
 

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Originally Posted by Shes Got Heart View Post
Than one can say, since the original function of these dogs is now banned in their homeland the APBT... than the true APBT ceases to exist.... If that is your opinion on the entire matter. And any true proven APBT's through illegal practices are very elusive.

Sorry guys... rip up your APBT paper work if your not fighting your dogs...
Yes, this is true!

That is why is is so important to at least use pure bred APBTs' to breed with!
At least they have a chance of preserving the gameness.
Unless you go to another country. Where they do not treat their dogs like Vick, but honor their drive and do not cause any unnecessary harm. Look up game dog breeds web board. This is a true statement.

I would never put my dogs in harms way, even if their ancestors won the equivalent to the ultimate strong man competition.

You understand.

Most "pits" are not pure bred APBT. One can argue (rightfully so), mine are now going the way of Stafies because I would never game test my family members.

Most true old Bull Dog breeders would not even want a show dog in their pedigree. They say, "its one of those dogs".

I was given flack for using Grand Champion Scruffy because he is a show dog.

If you want to catch Foxes, you do not use show stock Fox Terriers, you use dirty catch dog's one someones farm. Or, you water down your line.

The dog Grand Champion Scruffy had good lines like Snooty, this is why I used him. He still is a show dog, like my dogs, on their way to being Staffies.
Again, this is why it is so important to use old school dogs that truly represent the breed.

Old books from Greenwood are worth their weight in gold.
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Old 08-10-2010, 09:57 PM   #128 (permalink)
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I believe the dogs that they DNA-P'd that didn't match up with the pups was Disciple, Stale Fish, and Osiris.



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Old 08-10-2010, 10:07 PM   #129 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalTim View Post
Yes, this is true!

That is why is is so important to at least use pure bred APBTs' to breed with!
At least they have a chance of preserving the gameness.
Unless you go to another country. Where they do not treat their dogs like Vick, but honor their drive and do not cause any unnecessary harm. Look up game dog breeds web board. This is a true statement.

I would never put my dogs in harms way, even if their ancestors won the equivalent to the ultimate strong man competition.

You understand.

Most "pits" are not pure bred APBT. One can argue (rightfully so), mine are now going the way of Stafies because I would never game test my family members.

Most true old Bull Dog breeders would not even want a show dog in their pedigree. They say, "its one of those dogs".

I was given flack for using Grand Champion Scruffy because he is a show dog.

If you want to catch Foxes, you do not use show stock Fox Terriers, you use dirty catch dog's one someones farm. Or, you water down your line.

The dog Grand Champion Scruffy had good lines like Snooty, this is why I used him. He still is a show dog, like my dogs, on their way to being Staffies.
Again, this is why it is so important to use old school dogs that truly represent the breed.

Old books from Greenwood are worth their weight in gold.
Greenwood was the first dogman I talked to and then of course his daughter helped me a good deal with my breeding program.

Thats why my dog is made up of wins OTC, because, ORIGINALLY the dog had to have 2 wins to be registered as an APBT and because the REAL BULLDOG went into the pit over a millinea ago and was forever dubbed "pit bull"

In this country the United States of American, THE PEOPLE are GOVERNMENT, dont forget that because you don't have time to protest cause you have to pay your bills,, YOU DON"T THINK there is a process to take away all freedoms? Hell right now we have so much freedom we are taking it away from ourselves... If we want CHANGE the PEOPLE have to do it, or we will all subcome to socialist and communitarian lifestyle. Well almost, I'll be kickin it up in the mtns, you'll need directions and 4wheel drive.
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Last edited by Firehazard; 08-10-2010 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 08-10-2010, 10:11 PM   #130 (permalink)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shes Got Heart View Post
Than one can say, since the original function of these dogs is now banned in their homeland the APBT... than the true APBT ceases to exist.... If that is your opinion on the entire matter. And any true proven APBT's through illegal practices are very elusive.

Sorry guys... rip up your APBT paper work if your not fighting your dogs...
The original function is a long one. Bringing down a Bull, taking care of the kids when they went somewhere, partnership with frontiersmen, on and on.
All requiring relentless drive and intelligence.
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Old 08-10-2010, 10:21 PM   #131 (permalink)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
Greenwood was the first dogman I talked to and then of course his daughter helped me a good deal with my breeding program.

Thats why my dog is made up of wins OTC, because, ORIGINALLY the dog had to have 2 wins to be registered as an APBT and because the REAL BULLDOG went into the pit over a millinea ago and was forever dubbed "pit bull"

In this country the United States of American, THE PEOPLE are GOVERNMENT, dont forget that because you don't have time to protest cause you have to pay your bills,, YOU DON"T THINK there is a process to take away all freedoms? Hell right now we have so much freedom we are taking it away from ourselves... If we want CHANGE the PEOPLE have to do it, or we will all subcome to socialist and communitarian lifestyle. Well almost, I'll be kickin it up in the mtns, you'll need directions and 4wheel drive.
Right on. I am not religious, however god (the powers that be) bless us all. Here in Humboldt there are many mentally ill people, they get shot by the police left and right (sometimes rightfully so). A guy just was shot for waving a rake end as a weapon. I sell trees, I am bringing them (the family - he was killed in front of their house by Hwy 101 and Hwy 299 in CA) a Japanese Maple on my next round of hauling Redwoods.

Peace out, all.
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Old 08-10-2010, 11:18 PM   #132 (permalink)
 
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They could just require all dogs being bred to have their DNA on file in order to register a litter. Not just the ones being bred multiple times. The only way I can think to keep people mostly honest would be to have the vet take the DNA sample. I'm sure either way and whatever they do people will still find a way to hang papers.
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Old 08-11-2010, 12:54 AM   #133 (permalink)
 

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Originally Posted by aimee235 View Post
They could just require all dogs being bred to have their DNA on file in order to register a litter. Not just the ones being bred multiple times. The only way I can think to keep people mostly honest would be to have the vet take the DNA sample. I'm sure either way and whatever they do people will still find a way to hang papers.
The humaniacs are now using DNA to "prove" your dog is born bad. If he is from old lines (which were known for their human friendliness), some crazies say he is a BAD DOG.
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Old 08-11-2010, 02:58 AM   #134 (permalink)
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We have a mare and stallion's DNA on file. When the foal is born you send in a piece of mane or tail sample from the foal and it's proven. Then again it's only one not a litter.
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Old 08-11-2010, 03:16 AM   #135 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by buzhunter View Post
The Whopper dogs, they way I understand it, is just another example of blatant misrepresentation on the UKC's part. Like I said, they've been letting this go on for years and years. ICK is not the first.
Actually it was ADBA that let Whopper in(the ADBA knew he was not pure pit, but allowed it). I saw him in person, and he did not look anything like a pitbull, he made the bullies look purebred.The ADBA papers were only supposed to be used for weightpull, but he ended up being bred, and the offspring registered. That was all ADBAs doing. He was not the first or last bandog registered as a pure pit with ADBA. In defense of UKC, there are just as many mutts registered with ADBA as UKC. ADBA also used single registration from handwritten pedigrees of unknown parentage, it is not funny. Back in the 80's and 90's there were so many huge dogs pulling ADBA it was sickening. It was not until they got rid of MWP award, that the size went down, at least at the weightpulls.
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