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Old 03-11-2012, 11:11 PM   #16 (permalink)
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In a perfect world these hounds would not be put under such extreme circumstances to find out.. Of course when people think of "game testing" they immediately go to the era of the [] for answers, which in retrospect is probably the best example of not only testing but proving as it is about as raw of combat form there is.

In order to know a dog possess game is for that said dog to be put in the mental and physical situation deemed impossible to walk away from, in essence life or death. Only then will the dog show you, either instincts will kick in and will attempt to flea, cur, quit, etc.. OR they will defeat all odds and at least attempt to win or finish the tasks regardless of what the cost is to their own well being.. It goes against what nature instilled, if you will.

No sport offers this and aside from the illegal method already mentioned i believe there are only two other avenues.. 1. Catch dog and 2. Protection.. The reason i say this is because in my opinion these two are the only working avenues that can potentially offer the extreme conditions of which game is tested and/or proven.. Though i will say, it is not typical. I would not call a superior catch dog one that possesses game if that said dog has never endured such a stressful, challenging situation.

With the APBT there really is only one method that has proved to work and that is what the breed was bred and designed to do.. While Bulldogs are all arounders and can really exceed at virtually all abilities you must remember there is only 1 of those that the breed was perfected for. There is reason the saying "Its not the size of the dog, its the fight in the dog" is based on the APBT.

As time moves on it is increasingly harder to proven game (especially in this country) legally AND responsibly, no one in their right mind is going to just throw their dog in the position of "well, either he comes back or he wasn't game". These "other venues" are far more risky than "traditional" methods of testing as you don't NEED a hound to possess game to excel in hunting or protection however it just so happens that both have the potential of proving so.
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:29 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:40 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I would not call a superior catch dog one that possesses game if that said dog has never endured such a stressful, challenging situation.
I guess then a catch dog who's trampled on by a 350lb hog because a junior hound backed down and left an opening -- and yet picked himself up, despite some serious scratces [no broken bones], to keep at the hunt -- would kind of fall into this group of "game"
One year later he wasn't broke either we still hunt hog and bear.
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:08 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KMdogs View Post
In a perfect world these hounds would not be put under such extreme circumstances to find out.. Of course when people think of "game testing" they immediately go to the era of the [] for answers, which in retrospect is probably the best example of not only testing but proving as it is about as raw of combat form there is.

In order to know a dog possess game is for that said dog to be put in the mental and physical situation deemed impossible to walk away from, in essence life or death. Only then will the dog show you, either instincts will kick in and will attempt to flea, cur, quit, etc.. OR they will defeat all odds and at least attempt to win or finish the tasks regardless of what the cost is to their own well being.. It goes against what nature instilled, if you will.

No sport offers this and aside from the illegal method already mentioned i believe there are only two other avenues.. 1. Catch dog and 2. Protection.. The reason i say this is because in my opinion these two are the only working avenues that can potentially offer the extreme conditions of which game is tested and/or proven.. Though i will say, it is not typical. I would not call a superior catch dog one that possesses game if that said dog has never endured such a stressful, challenging situation.

With the APBT there really is only one method that has proved to work and that is what the breed was bred and designed to do.. While Bulldogs are all arounders and can really exceed at virtually all abilities you must remember there is only 1 of those that the breed was perfected for. There is reason the saying "Its not the size of the dog, its the fight in the dog" is based on the APBT.

As time moves on it is increasingly harder to proven game (especially in this country) legally AND responsibly, no one in their right mind is going to just throw their dog in the position of "well, either he comes back or he wasn't game". These "other venues" are far more risky than "traditional" methods of testing as you don't NEED a hound to possess game to excel in hunting or protection however it just so happens that both have the potential of proving so.
Sorry KM, it says I need to spread the love before I give you some rep...not that you need it anyways lol
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We always have to humanize dogs actions, we feel oh the dog is tall so we are helping when in reality its more natural for a dog to eat on the ground... And healthier
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:08 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I guess then a catch dog who's trampled on by a 350lb hog because a junior hound backed down and left an opening -- and yet picked himself up, despite some serious scratces [no broken bones], to keep at the hunt -- would kind of fall into this group of "game"
One year later he wasn't broke either we still hunt hog and bear.

I wouldn't consider that game. In the pit, the only time I've seen a dog labeled game is with several broken bones and inches from death and still fighting.

There's even the good ol' story of the dog that was unable to move it's front legs but still scratched and got up on two legs to go after the other dog. From what I recall the dog wasn't the best fighter, but he made up for it in tenacity and determination.
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:10 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I wouldn't consider that game. In the pit, the only time I've seen a dog labeled game is with several broken bones and inches from death.
If that dog you are mentioning is still moving forward or scratching...would be considered dead game.
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We always have to humanize dogs actions, we feel oh the dog is tall so we are helping when in reality its more natural for a dog to eat on the ground... And healthier
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:15 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I wouldn't consider that game. In the pit, the only time I've seen a dog labeled game is with several broken bones and inches from death and still fighting.

There's even the good ol' story of the dog that was unable to move it's front legs but still scratched and got up on two legs to go after the other dog. From what I recall the dog wasn't the best fighter, but he made up for it in tenacity and determination.
Yep and then as El Cuco said it's dead game [I'd rather have my dog alive than watching it's death throes for some punk's fun]... that's not game that's animal cruelty and no whimpering to defend that's why the breed was made will change my mind.

How about the only legal way to test game. Pits might have been bred for dog fighting but all I see in the sport is a bunch of thugs [Vick and his sort of people] who have to make themselves feel "big" by how many dogs their can defeat; reason why that sort of game testing is illgeal after all isn't it?

Take one of your dogs out and see if it'll tree a cougar / puma / mountain lion by itself - a trait not even all hog and bear dogs will willingly do - and maybe then I'll be interested in listening.


Oh and I think I should add though I love the breed I do not love the purpose behind pits. Humans make animals fight to the death - we do it with dogs, and in some countries they do it with horses - for our own sick pleasure.

Last edited by BoneMan; 03-12-2012 at 12:42 AM.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:20 AM   #23 (permalink)
 
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There is no true way to test game any more. End.of story. The only way to know a dog was game was to pit it into another game dog. Hog even pumas will eventually run the only thing going to keep fighting is another game dog. Gamness is simply a endless battle were the fighter does not give up no matter the damage it has encountered. So you can never truly find this with opponents that will quit long before the limits have been pushed for the bulldog. This was the only way to do so and now all that can be done is to run a dog till tired then take him for a hard hunt on a hog. BONeman This is as close to game as you can get these days a dog that has been thrashed by its prey and still fights to make the catch. But still it is prey not an equal opponent.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:38 AM   #24 (permalink)
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There is no true way to test game any more. End.of story. The only way to know a dog was game was to pit it into another game dog. Hog even pumas will eventually run the only thing going to keep fighting is another game dog. Gamness is simply a endless battle were the fighter does not give up no matter the damage it has encountered. So you can never truly find this with opponents that will quit long before the limits have been pushed for the bulldog. This was the only way to do so and now all that can be done is to run a dog till tired then take him for a hard hunt on a hog. BONeman This is as close to game as you can get these days a dog that has been thrashed by its prey and still fights to make the catch. But still it is prey not an equal opponent.
I've had hounds forelegs broken by hogs, gutted by hogs, and my GingerSnaps [Snaps' adoptive mother] was blinded by a cat but that didn't stop her as she was still in the pack [didnt realize her condition till after] - so yeah hunting can get pretty damn hairy. But then most people "hunt" with big guns and think themselves men... try bow hunting big prey.


Oh I understand the concept and find it.... less then manly [and absolutely sickening in the lack of respect given to a loyal breed]. But then my mindset comes from my daughter's pit mix without a single dog aggressive bone was stolen out of the backyard where she was staying for college - was used as a "bait" or whatever you call it to encourage aggression in a pedigreed / better dog; beaten [by humans] and eventually left to starve to death because of its "uselessness".

No where in nature do you find an animal willing to fight to the death because they have brains, they want to survive another day - if it's just another day due to injuries. But you throw two dogs together in a "pit" with no means of escape except until one is down / if not dead and that is to show what? That the winning dog had better training? Was in better condition? That those involved in the event ultimately don't see their dogs as any more than a means to brag in having a better "killing machine"?

If you were to believe the origins of the Molossian type - forefather of the APBT - they had an actual useful purpose in assisting butchers with unruly cattle / bulls led to slaughter. This, because of human boredom and dog aggression, became bull baiting / bear /monkeys, etc. baiting as a simple mean for human entertainment [same as gladiators]. Dog fighting followed suit only because it was more easily disguised.

The APBT is a very beautiful breed, very verstile, but it could have been a lot better had we not gotten so caught up with this concept of fighting the animals.

Last edited by BoneMan; 03-12-2012 at 01:43 AM.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:47 AM   #25 (permalink)
 
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I see your points defenently. But dog fighting was around even when bull baiting was leagal. I hear people say oh dog fighting came along cause it could be hidden. Well it was leagal so wht was the point of it needing to be hidden.
I also think you shoul know that the unfortunant event of the stolen dog while sad, has nothing to do with dog fighting in the essence of what the true dogger would have done in the day of the real ABPT. Beacaus they did not use bait dogs, it would be contradition to train your dog on a dog that was not game. I find it funny that people will say how great the breed is but it would be better". Well yes dog fighting did aid in the bad name o the breed, but It is gamensess and the non human agressing that was bred in by true dog men that make the breed great.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:48 AM   #26 (permalink)
 
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I've had hounds forelegs broken by hogs, gutted by hogs, and my GingerSnaps [Snaps' adoptive mother] was blinded by a cat but that didn't stop her as she was still in the pack [didnt realize her condition till after] - so yeah hunting can get pretty damn hairy. But then most people "hunt" with big guns and think themselves men... try bow hunting big prey.


Oh I understand the concept and find it.... less then manly [and absolutely sickening in the lack of respect given to a loyal breed]. But then my mindset comes from my daughter's pit mix without a single dog aggressive bone was stolen out of the backyard where she was staying for college - was used as a "bait" or whatever you call it to encourage aggression in a pedigreed / better dog; beaten [by humans] and eventually left to starve to death because of its "uselessness".

No where in nature do you find an animal willing to fight to the death because they have brains, they want to survive another day - if it's just another day due to injuries. But you throw two dogs together in a "pit" with no means of escape except until one is down / if not dead and that is to show what? That the winning dog had better training? Was in better condition? That those involved in the event ultimately don't see their dogs as any more than a means to brag in having a better "killing machine"?

If you were to believe the origins of the Molossian type - forefather of the APBT - they had an actual useful purpose in assisting butchers with unruly cattle / bulls led to slaughter. This, because of human boredom and dog aggression, became bull baiting / bear /monkeys, etc. baiting as a simple mean for human entertainment [same as gladiators]. Dog fighting followed suit only because it was more easily disguised.

The APBT is a very beautiful breed, very verstile, but it could have been a lot better had we not gotten so caught up with this concept of fighting the animals.


Also, that's awful about that poor dog that got stolen. Some people are just sick.
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Last edited by caninesrock; 03-12-2012 at 01:50 AM.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:59 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Yep and then as El Cuco said it's dead game [I'd rather have my dog alive than watching it's death throes for some punk's fun]... that's not game that's animal cruelty and no whimpering to defend that's why the breed was made will change my mind.

How about the only legal way to test game. Pits might have been bred for dog fighting but all I see in the sport is a bunch of thugs [Vick and his sort of people] who have to make themselves feel "big" by how many dogs their can defeat; reason why that sort of game testing is illgeal after all isn't it?

Take one of your dogs out and see if it'll tree a cougar / puma / mountain lion by itself - a trait not even all hog and bear dogs will willingly do - and maybe then I'll be interested in listening.


Oh and I think I should add though I love the breed I do not love the purpose behind pits. Humans make animals fight to the death - we do it with dogs, and in some countries they do it with horses - for our own sick pleasure.
I wasn't saying that's game, I was just mentioning the story as an example. The dog died, so of course it's dead game. Also partially hoping someone would mention the name of the dog since it's long escaped my mind.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:59 AM   #28 (permalink)
 
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It really is a sad thing to see what ingnorance has done to our great bree.
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:02 AM   #29 (permalink)
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It really is a sad thing to see what ingnorance has done to our great bree.
who yas talking to?
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:02 AM   #30 (permalink)
 
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I don't know which dog you are talking about Celest88 but the same type match happened with Ch jeep and ch homer wher home had injurys to both front legs and made his final scratch with out the use of them he did not he was picked up but still considered game since he still scratched.
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