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Old 08-17-2009, 07:33 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Grow up! I guess I will continue to find a good forum where immature people who fly off the handle are not allowed to be given the privilege of being a mod.
Youre so right. Im off my rocker, and I just post trivial information. None of it comes from veterinarians, it all comes from folklore and Orijen websites. None of my reputation on here has come from saying what needs to be said, or for contributing or showing how much I'm learning. I became a moderator cuz I paid the staff off and even though I'm financially set and have my priorities straight, I have not yet grown up. I am just disagreeing with you to be a dickhead, because you obviously went to school to be a nutrionalist, and your buddy having a APBT does obviously prove a lot of points. I'm sorry to see you go to another forum, because you have shared nothing but useful, unbiased information and you are obviously implementing your techniques with your dog who you can't control. Wish there was a pill for high drive just like there's a pill for the effects of pms.. cuz theyre both to be expected, right mike?
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Old 08-17-2009, 07:37 PM   #32 (permalink)
 

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Hey Oz, go see your doctor dude and ask for Lithium! You have lost it.
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Old 08-17-2009, 07:39 PM   #33 (permalink)
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does anyone have anything useful to conribute?
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Old 08-17-2009, 07:41 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Great thread Oz...

Wonderful information and a great read...
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Old 08-17-2009, 07:45 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Great thread Oz...

Wonderful information and a great read...

Thank you!
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Old 08-17-2009, 07:57 PM   #36 (permalink)
 
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if you boys don't behave I will put you in the corner! lol

I feed a food that has grain in it and I do not have issues with my performance dogs. Sometimes I have had to add crabs to make certain dogs gain weight. I think the food market is one of the biggest rip off in the pet market. I think finding a good food your dog does good on is the most important part of feeding. I have my kennel on Kirkland from costco and my dogs do great. I also have my Boston terrier and Tasha who have to eat grain free. General will get the runs and Tasha will itch. They eat taste of the wild and do great but they only eat that because they do good on it.

JMO but dogs are so far removed from wolves that comparing their eating habits I think is pointless. My Boston terrier is nothing like a wolf and nether is their system. Each has their own nutritional requirements and i do not want to compare apples to oranges.

I do not remember either of your points because it got argumentative.
PMD you really know how to get under someones skin, and Oz don't let him get to you.
PMD I have seen this many times in a thread where you will keep posting to get the last word and ruin a good thread. Oz again don't let him get to you.

What I'm I going to do with you boys! lol
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Old 08-17-2009, 08:00 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I wanted to add about kidney failure in this thread, but didn't know if it related enough. What my vet told me is that high glucose levels in dogs can actually lead to formations of "crystals" which i guess turn into stones? She used more advanced terminology but stated that excess sugar in the blood can cause seriously adverse effects, kidney failure being one of them. And that high protein doesn't directly affect the kidneys, but what makes a difference is the quality of the meat. so technically, we absorb less amino acids in red meat then we do in fish, making fish healthier and more easily digested. It's protein sources that arent processed by the body as easily that contribute to kidney failure. Obviously the lack of water will do it as well, but water should be an obvious one.
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Old 08-17-2009, 08:17 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by performanceknls View Post

JMO but dogs are so far removed from wolves that comparing their eating habits I think is pointless. My Boston terrier is nothing like a wolf and nether is their system. Each has their own nutritional requirements and i do not want to compare apples to oranges.

sorry to take this out of context.. you stated it is just your opinion. and from your opinion, pmd went off on the fact that dogs have evolved. I don't believe that they have evolved, but then again that is my opinion.

A boston terrier, just like the majority of dogs today, is just one of the breeds bred from different outcrosses finally achieving the traits desired. Same with a apbt. Except i think that certain breeds are more active, and for that reason, grain is trivial because it adds no energy to the diet. in a dog that is a house pet, a feed with less protein will be a better choice, as the animal does not burn off the calories associated with high fat and high protein. But normally lower levels of protein in foods means the presence of grains. So the dog gets just as full (not as long though), but absorbs less energy because of it. I am not saying that grain free is the best way to go, or that raw is, but what I'm saying is compared to other ingredients, grains are not essential.

The whole point of the thread was to give examples of how fatty acids are obtained. I learned that flaxseed oil isnt absorbed by our dogs as well as fish oil, so i made the switch. the thread was supposed to give members information if they want it, not to be debate!
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:42 PM   #39 (permalink)
 
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I can find a study that will say dogs digestion has changed I can also find a study saying that they have not and a Chihuahua is just the same as a wolf. Again you find a study supporting almost anything it just depends on who paid for the study.
But back to the op, too much fish oil can cause birth defects in pregnant bitches. It is too much Vitamin A that really does it. I prefer wheat germ oil but I have posted that before. Not arguing just offering an alternative to fish oil.
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:51 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:01 PM   #41 (permalink)
 

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I do not remember either of your points because it got argumentative.
PMD you really know how to get under someones skin, and Oz don't let him get to you.
PMD I have seen this many times in a thread where you will keep posting to get the last word and ruin a good thread. Oz again don't let him get to you.

What I'm I going to do with you boys! lol
My apologies. Please remove all my posts in this thread. I was up all night working graveyard shift and not thinking too clearly and got argumentative. I am sorry I ruined your thread Oz.
I am however not going to apologize for my rebuttal of your "facts" as I still think they are incorrect.

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Old 08-18-2009, 03:08 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:09 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Myth: WOLVES INGEST THE STOMACH CONTENTS OF THEIR PREY.

This claim is repeated over and over as evidence that wolves and therefore dogs are omnivores. However, this assumption is just that--an assumption. It is not supported by the evidence available to us, and is therefore false!

Wolves do NOT eat the stomach contents of their prey. Only if the prey is small enough (like the size of a rabbit) will they eat the stomach contents, which just happen to get consumed along with the entire animal. Otherwise, wolves will shake out the stomach contents of their large herbivorous prey before sometimes eating the stomach wall. The following quotations are taken from L. David Mech's 2003 book Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation. Mech (and the others who contributed to this book) is considered the world's leading wolf biologist, and this book is a compilation of 350 collective years of research, experiments, and careful field observations. These quotes are taken from chapter 4, The Wolf as a Carnivore.

"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site." (pg.123, emphasis added)

"To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system." (pg.124, emphasis added).

This next quote can be found on the Hunting and Meals page at Kerwood Wildlife Education Center.

"The wolf's diet consists mostly of muscle meat and fatty tissue from various animals. Heart, lung, liver, and other internal organs are eaten. Bones are crushed to get at the marrow, and bone fragments are eaten as well. Even hair and skin are sometimes consumed. The only part consistently ignored is the stomach and its contents. Although some vegetable matter is taken separately, particularly berries, Canis lupus doesn't seem to digest them very well."

From the mouths of the wolf experts themselves, who have observed countless numbers of kills: wolves do NOT eat the stomach contents of their large prey, and are carnivorous animals. Additionally, Neville Buck from the Howletts and Port Lympne Zoological Parks in Kent, England, notes that virtually no small carnivore (which includes varieties of cats, wolves, wild dogs) eat the intestinal contents of their large prey. The contents are spilled in the enclosures and are often rolled in by the animals, but very little is eaten (if any is eaten at all). His observations can be found in Appendix B of Raw Meaty Bones.

Myths About Raw: Do wolves eat stomach contents of prey?
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:14 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Myth: DOGS ARE TOO FAR REMOVED FROM WOLVES/HAVE BEEN CHANGED TOO MUCH, AND THEREFORE CANNOT HANDLE A RAW DIET .

This is MOSTLY false. The only truth found in this statement is that humans have changed dogs. BUT, we have only changed their external appearance and temperament, NOT their internal anatomy and physiology. The claim that dogs cannot handle a raw diet because they are so domesticated is only true in that we have been feeding them commercial diets for so long that a dog's system is not running up to par. The result of feeding dogs a highly processed, grain-based food is a suppressed immune system and the underproduction of the enzymes necessary to thoroughly digest raw meaty bones (Lonsdale, T. 2001. Raw Meaty Bones). This does NOT mean, however, that the dog does not "have" those enzymes. Those enzymes are present, and once the dog is taken off the grain-based, plant matter-filled food those enzymes quickly return to the proper working level that allows for optimal digestion of raw meaty bones.

Dogs are so much like wolves physiologically that they are frequently used in wolf studies as a physiological model for wolf body processes (Mech, L.D. 2003. Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation). Additionally, dogs and wolves share 99.8% of their mitochondrial DNA (Wayne, R.K. Molecular Evolution of the Dog Family). This next quote is from Robert K. Wayne, Ph.D., and his discussion on canine genetics (taken from www.fiu.edu/~milesk/Genetics.html).


"The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mDNA sequence..."

Dogs and wolves can freely interbreed and produce fertile offspring—even little dogs like Westies and Chihuahuas are capable of this! This is a dramatic indication that dogs and wolves are very closely related and are compatible in terms of genetics (incompatible animals do not produce viable, fertile offspring, such as donkeys and horses. Their offspring—the mule—is a sterile animal.). The genes for different coat colors, lengths, conformations, and structural differences are present in the wolf population to a certain degree (otherwise wolves would not have been able to give rise to the different dogs we have today. In order for a phenotypic change to occur, there has to be a genetic basis off which to work. If the genes are not there, then the phenotypic change is not going to "magically" occur), but are selected against by nature because they are not advantageous to wolf survival. Humans are the ones that manipulated the breedings to "create" smaller dogs and dogs of varying colors, shapes, and sizes.

Additionally, dogs that are left to their own devices in the wild will form packs and hunt other animals, exhibiting a similar range of behaviors like those seen in wolves. Phenotypic differences like size, ears, etc. will often return to a more "wolf-like" state as the animals outcross and breed freely (for example, Chihuahuas will increase in size if left to breed without specific human selection for size); breed characteristics have been specifically selected according to human whim, and in order to retain those characteristics like dogs must be continually bred to like dogs until the genes for those characteristics are sufficiently 'fixed' within that population of dogs (which is how we came upon the different dog breeds today). One can rightfully question what dogs would end up looking like if they just bred for generations without human interference. Would they gradually look more and more like their ancestral predecessors?

Lastly, dogs have recently been reclassified as Canis lupus familiaris by the Smithsonian Institute (Wayne, R.K. "What is a Wolfdog?" 2. Canid Genetics), placing it in the same species as the gray wolf, Canis lupus. The dog is, by all scientific standards and by evolutionary history, a domesticated wolf (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 472.). Those who insist dogs did not descend from wolves must disprove the litany of scientific evidence that concludes wolves are the ancestors of dogs. And, as we have already established, the wolf is a carnivore. Since a dog's internal physiology does not differ from a wolf, dogs have the same physiological and nutritional needs as those carnivorous predators, which, remember, "need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system" to "grow and maintain their own bodies" (Mech, L.D. 2003. Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation.). The next myth will discuss a dog's "changed needs" to cooked food more fully.

What about the argument that dogs may have weaker digestive enzymes than wolves? Some argue that dogs may not be as efficient as wolves in digesting raw meat and bones. This argument has been recognized by wolf researchers (Mech, L.D. 2003. Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation.) but is generally not considered in their dog model studies. Why? From mouth to anus, dog and wolf physiology and basic anatomy are almost precisely the same. What is the significance of this? This means dogs should still be fed a carnivorous diet to meet their needs. What does it matter if they don't have the same digestive capabilities as a wolf? How does that justify feeding them an even harder-to-digest meal of commercial pet food or cooked food? How does that justify feeding them any differently from a prey model diet that has been proven by nature to be completely sufficient?

Let us forget the wolf-dog relations for a moment. Let us just look at the dog itself and listen to what its body can tell us about its diet. The dog has the anatomy and physiology of a predatory carnivore, of a hunter designed to subsist on other animals. It has the skull and jaw design of a carnivore: a deep and C-shaped mandibular fossa that prevents lateral movement of the jaw (lateral movement is necessary for eating plant matter). The jaw muscles are designed for crushing grips and powerful bites, with a jaw that hinges open widely to help gulp chunks of meat and bone. The teeth of the dog are pointed and specialized for ripping, tearing, shearing, and crushing meat and bone. Their saliva lacks amylase, the enzyme responsible for beginning carbohydrate breakdown; instead, they have lysozyme in their saliva, an enzyme that destroys pathogenic bacteria. They have highly elastic stomachs designed to stretch to capacity with ingested meat and bone, complete with incredibly powerful and acidic stomach acid (pH of 1). Their intestines are short and smooth, designed to push meat through quickly so that it does not sit and putrefy in the gut. Their external anatomy also shows development as a hunter. They have eyes situated in the front of their skulls rather than to the side like an herbivore. The body (prior to man-made manipulation of things like size and angulation) is built for chasing down prey, and its senses are acutely developed to help locate prey. By all accounts, this is an animal designed to eat other animals.

Dogs still are carnivores. They still need meat, bones, and organs. They still cannot utilize vegetables as efficiently as meat. Their nutritional needs have not changed much over their years of domestication. Do they need supplemental enzymes, then? The small amount of stool coming out the other end of a raw fed dog clearly indicates that there is no need for extra enzymes (medical conditions requiring extra enzymes not included here). The best, most highly digestible diet for our domesticated carnivores is a prey model diet based on a variety of raw meaty bones and whole carcasses.

Myths About Raw: Are dogs too far removed from wolves to be fed raw food?
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:16 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Even more....

Myth: DOGS HAVE BEEN DOMESTICATED SO LONG THAT THEY HAVE ADAPTED TO COOKED DIETS.

This is false! Yes, dogs were domesticated from wolves thousands of years ago, and then selectively bred by humans for desired sizes, shapes, and characteristics. However, they have NOT adapted to a cooked food diet, as evidenced by the millions of pets sitting in the waiting rooms of veterinary clinics with periodontal disease, skin diseases, cancers, organ diseases, diabetes, obesity—diseases that have strong connections to cooked and processed foods. No, a cooked diet has not been kind to our animals.

Kibbled foods (which are cooked and highly processed) have only been around for the last 100 years. Evolutionary adaptations require much more time than this. The evolutionary changes—from gross anatomy down to the molecular level—that would be required for the development of such different digestive capabilities would take MUCH longer than the time that wolves have been living with humans.

So what were pets eating before the advent of cooked, processed, kibbled pet diets? They received hardly any cooked food, as food was a precious commodity that very few people would waste on something like a dog (remember, dogs have not always enjoyed the same social status they enjoy now). Instead, they received the human "waste food"—things people would not use or eat, which may have included a small portion of table scraps. By and large, however, the dogs foraged and scavenged on their own, or hunted small prey animals to supplement what little food they received at home.

And before this? Wolf-dogs hunted with their masters and hung around the camps, knowing they would receive whatever raw meat, bones, and offal were left over (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 472.). Thousands of years ago, people did not cook for their pets. Why should they? The animals were fully capable of obtaining their own food and moreover were a good "disposal" for unused parts of animals. The dogs ate what they were designed to eat, and until the 1950s (some argue as late as the 1980s and 1990s), dogs were recognized as the carnivores they are.

For more about why home-made, cooked food diets are not a completely viable alternative to raw, please read the Cooked Food myth.

Myths About Raw: Have dogs adapted to cooked diets?
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