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Old 03-31-2010, 06:54 AM   #16 (permalink)
 
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maybe he got it from eating poop.. either way if your looking for an alternative here ya go

nuthin but pumpkin seeds for a whole day as food. i will get pummeled for this by other members here, but if your dog is healthy enough for a fast , put him on a pumpkin seed fasting. half a cup of pumpkin seeds in one shot , if by the end of the day he's not touching it, mix it with a little goat milk

...has worked for thousands of years... advice from middle eastern shepherds is golden i swear to you, this time being a dog owner i will write everything down on my next trip should conversation be directed around canine health and training.

laugh if you want but they've ( shepherds) have been in the game for 10,000 years.

but of course , you need to find pumpkin seeds in the beginning of spring and a friendly goat.

Last edited by NinaThePitbull; 03-31-2010 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 03-31-2010, 11:44 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NinaThePitbull View Post
maybe he got it from eating poop.. either way if your looking for an alternative here ya go

nuthin but pumpkin seeds for a whole day as food. i will get pummeled for this by other members here, but if your dog is healthy enough for a fast , put him on a pumpkin seed fasting. half a cup of pumpkin seeds in one shot , if by the end of the day he's not touching it, mix it with a little goat milk

...has worked for thousands of years... advice from middle eastern shepherds is golden i swear to you, this time being a dog owner i will write everything down on my next trip should conversation be directed around canine health and training.

laugh if you want but they've ( shepherds) have been in the game for 10,000 years.

but of course , you need to find pumpkin seeds in the beginning of spring and a friendly goat.
NOTE CLAIMING IT WORKS OR DOESNT WORK

But need to point out
- GOATS MILK = powder 25. dollars / liquid 3. to 6. dollars (if you can find it most grocery stores do not carry it as it is not a regular milk to drink.)
- Pumkin Seeds = well since NO pumpkins hmm NO seeds. DO NOT purchase the ones you are readily get to eat as seeds b/c they have sodium on them NOT GOOD FOR DOGS

Nina thank you for sharing this one. I am going to look into it as I have NEVER heard of it. But my one questions so you....
Dogs not use to goats milk will get the runs from even a cup of it, how do they claim for this not to happen?
How does this method get rid of worms?
Nothing in there to get rid of them?
Where did you get your information from? BOOK? INTERNET?

Thanks for letting me know
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Old 03-31-2010, 09:21 PM   #18 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geisthexe View Post
NOTE CLAIMING IT WORKS OR DOESNT WORK

But need to point out
- GOATS MILK = powder 25. dollars / liquid 3. to 6. dollars (if you can find it most grocery stores do not carry it as it is not a regular milk to drink.)
- Pumkin Seeds = well since NO pumpkins hmm NO seeds. DO NOT purchase the ones you are readily get to eat as seeds b/c they have sodium on them NOT GOOD FOR DOGS

Nina thank you for sharing this one. I am going to look into it as I have NEVER heard of it. But my one questions so you....
Dogs not use to goats milk will get the runs from even a cup of it, how do they claim for this not to happen?
How does this method get rid of worms?
Nothing in there to get rid of them?
Where did you get your information from? BOOK? INTERNET?

Thanks for letting me know
the goat milk is only little amount less than anounce just to make it palatable...
yes i should have stated not canned or preserved pumpkins, the real deal.
thats why i had said, good luck finding pumpkin seeds in the beginning of the spring. I definitely should have stated NO SODIUm, even though i thought that would be a given, not smart when someone is asking for advice.

I have actually seen this many times ( when I say many , I dont mean once or twice, Pakistan, Turkey, Iraq, Afghanistan, the dogs there are covered in fleas, the street dogs get no love, but a shepherd's dog is part of the family and workforce, Ive seen some gorgeous Kangals and will try to get to the Sivas kangal festival if schedule permits , I will send you photos and let me know if you would be interested in one from a working family...anyhoo..

back to the pumpkin seeds...

I have seen shepherds mash it down into a powder in a bowl, the goat milk was because goat milk was more accesible than anything else, im would assume it is the pumpkin seeds itself that contain the ingredient that kills or flushes out the parasites, but let me look into what exactly it is... wwithout doing research i would assume zinc, but that is an uneducated guess. let me get back to you in 15-20 minutes.
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Old 03-31-2010, 09:56 PM   #19 (permalink)
 
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Anthelmintic activity of pumpkin seeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by geisthexe View Post
NOTE CLAIMING IT WORKS OR DOESNT WORK

But need to point out
- GOATS MILK = powder 25. dollars / liquid 3. to 6. dollars (if you can find it most grocery stores do not carry it as it is not a regular milk to drink.)
- Pumkin Seeds = well since NO pumpkins hmm NO seeds. DO NOT purchase the ones you are readily get to eat as seeds b/c they have sodium on them NOT GOOD FOR DOGS

Nina thank you for sharing this one. I am going to look into it as I have NEVER heard of it. But my one questions so you....
Dogs not use to goats milk will get the runs from even a cup of it, how do they claim for this not to happen?
How does this method get rid of worms?
Nothing in there to get rid of them?
Where did you get your information from? BOOK? INTERNET?

Thanks for letting me know
Okay, I was able to find some sources ...
not Ehow, or internet gospel souces..lol that make claims without citing sources, but information availabe in the

United States National Library Of Medicine's
National Institute of Health


This study conducted by professors in Iraq on the anthelmintic activity
(as you probably know anthelmintic means drugs that expel parasitic worms (helminths) from the body, by either stunning or killing them. They may also be called vermifuges (stunning) or vermicides (killing)
of cucurbitae family (pumpkins and squash)

The porfessors are affiliated with
Scientific Research Council,
Biological Research Centre, Jadiriyah, Baghdad, Iraq,
College of Veterinary Medicine, Baghdad University, Baghdad, Iraq

This is the most notable source I have found, yet there are others and i will provide them. It does not surprise me that this study was done in a land where shepherding flourished before all others, as well as agriculture. ( North Africa not included)

In our modern age, we have to acknowledge the fact that these academic professionals in the field of medicine, see the holistic approaches used by the native people for generations and study them on a biological level.

The shepherds are not aware of the biological effects that the pumpkin seeds have on parasites, they just know it works. ..Knowledge passed on by generations, knowledge that has been lost by tragic effects or even deliberately oppressed for the monetary benefit of billion dollar pharmaceutical companies... but before i go into a rant on Big Pharma, let me provide you with the links to the literature.

The Anthelmintic Activity of Some Iraqi Plants of the Cucurbitaceae - Pharmaceutical Biology

...here are some other notable scientific publications

Screening of the antimalarial activity of plants o... [Mem Inst Oswaldo Cruz. 1991] - PubMed result

I will not refute modern medicine, that would be ignorant of me and disrespectful of the saviors we still have in the medical field, I am just disappointed in the takeover of medical research by biased sources.
U.S. only funds research in which the outcome will be a monetary benefit to pharmaceutical companies.
Our doctors are not healers anymore, they are drug pushers. Doctors of MEDICINE, butnot healing.

I remember an episode of Nurse Jackie when Jackie told someone " Doctors don't heal, they prescribe, WE heal" ( meaning RNs) Coming from a long line of nurses, I enjoyed that comment, but I digress...


one more publication - I do not have the time to read this , so I apologize in advance if it is a misrepresentation of my argument.

Screening of indigenous plants for anthelmintic ac... [Indian J Physiol Pharmacol. 1975 Jan-Mar] - PubMed result


Listen to the shepherds people, they know what they are talking about. Have a conversation with an organic farmer if you find yourself so lucky to come across one.

I love when your on this forum Deb, you bring out the best in all of us, and I learn so much from you. I do have some questions for you regarding emergency canine care, when I am able to write them in an intelligable ( misspelled) manner I would love to present them to you. You ARE the Health and Nutrition part of this forum, hands down.



How are the Presas doing? Did you check out my Bandogge thread?

Last edited by NinaThePitbull; 04-01-2010 at 12:08 AM.
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Old 03-31-2010, 10:08 PM   #20 (permalink)
 
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PS
headed back to Hajiland in perhaps a month, not sure yet ( im not military). I will try this out on a few dogs in Iraq, or Turkey. I will document it with video and would love to post it in this board.

Deb, I am just as skeptical about a lot of the hippidy dippity holistic nonsense spewed by people who have no knowledge of Pharmaceutical biology, but I can only tell you what I've learned and seen myself.



Get back to me about the Kangals Deb, ( thousands of years old working bloodlines )


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Old 04-01-2010, 06:48 PM   #21 (permalink)
 
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Interesting... can a person use dried pumpkin seeds that came right from the pumpkin? So, you just give 1/2 cup of seeds for that entire day? I never have a problem with worms, knock on wood, but the information seems interesting and harmless enough. My husband usually grows pumpkins and our neighbors raise goats.
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Old 04-01-2010, 07:12 PM   #22 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by kimber View Post
Interesting... can a person use dried pumpkin seeds that came right from the pumpkin? So, you just give 1/2 cup of seeds for that entire day? I never have a problem with worms, knock on wood, but the information seems interesting and harmless enough. My husband usually grows pumpkins and our neighbors raise goats.
I am guessing the active ingredient is cucurbitacin
Cucurbitacin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so i would imagine if that amino acid is still present in a dried pumpkin than it would be beneficial. I do not see how having dried it would not retain its parasite stunning/killing properties beacuae people have been using it for so long, a pumpkin seed being fresh/raw for only a few days.

all i can say is what i have seen and what i have been researching latelythrough medical iterature, common sense tells me this amino acid is still found in the seed.

this is a steroid that plants produce to defend against herbivores, so it makes sense that it would be toxic to certain organisms, which would give it it's anthelmentic nature.

the goat milk is just to make it palatable you probably wont need it , or you may find a more natural solution to make it palatable, i only worry about too much would of anything other than the seeds would be detrimental.
Ive seen it ground into a bowl, a few times goat milk ( very little) put in , the dogs Ive seen it used on were not picky eaters, they would feed predominently on goat meat, sheep meet ( forgot what you call that...mutton?) and basically lots of barley and left over veggies.
i do not recommend the barley , and am not yet decided if veggies are needed in a canine diet ( although my dogs eat veggies)



these shepherd do not have the access to drugs, either financially or geographically, they rarely vaccinate their dogs against anything other than rabies ( some do not even do that ... which i do not recommend ), yet these dogs are extremely intelligent and healthy, but i do also give credit to great breeding selection and genetics. their diets are moderately nutritious to say the least in my opinion, but than again, my familyhas not been raising working dogs for the last 500 years, who am I to judge.


ok i am rambling...
its PROBABLY cucurbitacin, although I am hardly deep into the study conducted in Iraq, so I can not say ( reading medical journals are as exciting as law journals in sanskrit)...
the fact that people store pumpkin seeds and eat them is because the dried seeds still contain nutrition, so i can only guess that it is fine, thats what i saw was being used. but fresh/raw is almost always the best regarding nutrition and health.

i enjoyed growing pumpkins and squash last year, hop to do it agin this summer.
what kind of pumpkins do you grow ? what kind of goats do you neighbors have?

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Old 04-01-2010, 07:36 PM   #23 (permalink)
 
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I know my dog would not chew the pumpkin seeds but would simply swallow them whole (likely meaning this would not work). I'd have to grind up the pumpkin seeds.
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:36 PM   #24 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Aximus Prime View Post
I know my dog would not chew the pumpkin seeds but would simply swallow them whole (likely meaning this would not work). I'd have to grind up the pumpkin seeds.
it would be better ground anyway, i would imagine.

also that fact that this sterpid is produced to fight herbivores, i would love to find or a study that has grown pumpkin in a test area and introduced herbivores within the proximity to see if it produces more, I would now imagine that if presence of herbivores is a factor in producing cucurbitacin to beneficial levels for comsumption than another case for organic farming. If you spray chemicals in the patch to prevent herbivores than perhaps the pumpkin will not produce as much, even lose significant production capabilities after a few generations............. just wondering.

If so, even more reason to go organic, and leave the chemicals alone.
I would strongly reccomend the following documentaries
Monsanto
Food Inc.
The Future Of Food
i can link them if anyone is interested.

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Old 04-11-2010, 07:03 AM   #25 (permalink)
 
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Aximus, one more thing regarding ground seeds. I would suggest by hand always, blenders and electrical grinders create too much heat thorugh friction, and you dont want to cook away nutrients.
one of the best things to keep in your kitchen is a mortar and pestle

do it by hand, less clean, and no loss of nutrients.

and you could always use it for grinding down pharma drug to put in the food.
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Old 04-11-2010, 08:19 AM   #26 (permalink)
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If it is tapeworm you will need Droncit from your vet, plus you need get rid of all fleas, even one. Safeguard/Panacur is really good, but needs to be used 4 days in a row, then a week later. It does not work on all four cycles of a tapeworm, so not as effective. Strongid(Pyrantel Pamoate) is good, but only works for round worms and whip worms.

If you know it is tapeworm, go to your vet and get droncit. Praziquantel (tapeworm expeller) supposedly works over the counter, but again has to be used for a long time, as only kills 3 lifestages of tapeworm, and there are 4.

If a person only has 1 or 2 dogs, and is fairly new to the dogs, I always suggest a vet visit, rather than self medicating. It just makes sense to me. If you can not afford one or two vet visits a year, you do not need to own a dog.
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Old 04-11-2010, 10:11 AM   #27 (permalink)
 
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If it is tapeworm you will need Droncit from your vet, plus you need get rid of all fleas, even one. Safeguard/Panacur is really good, but needs to be used 4 days in a row, then a week later. It does not work on all four cycles of a tapeworm, so not as effective. Strongid(Pyrantel Pamoate) is good, but only works for round worms and whip worms.

If you know it is tapeworm, go to your vet and get droncit. Praziquantel (tapeworm expeller) supposedly works over the counter, but again has to be used for a long time, as only kills 3 lifestages of tapeworm, and there are 4.

If a person only has 1 or 2 dogs, and is fairly new to the dogs, I always suggest a vet visit, rather than self medicating. It just makes sense to me. If you can not afford one or two vet visits a year, you do not need to own a dog.
absolutely correct, which is the advice eevryone has given regarding what to do with a tapeworm. There is no harm in mentioning what people have done for hundreds or even thousands of years though, you do realize that most pharmaceutical drugs are derived from plants.

I am a bit confused about your statement:
If you can not afford one or two vet visits a year, you do not need to own a dog

... although this is a statement all of us will agree on, I was not able to find anything on this thread that had mentioned anyone saying they did not have the money to go to a vet or were seeking an alternative to it. The discussion of cucurbitacin merely arose from the thread.

If you travel internationally in areas that are not known to be tourist hospitable, nor do they have any medical facilities for dogs, you might find certain information ( like the study of cucurbitacin's anthelmintic properties which is found in the Nationaly Library of Medicine's archives) pretty useful.

To be honest, you would find lots literature written by educated individuals very useful - in all aspects.

Yet, if you do not travel much, and don't like to read I can see your point and respect it.

Although the mode of action of Praziquantel ( you call it Droncit ) is not known, hey, it works right, that's all that matters!?!

What is known is the following:

Side effects



* Central nervous system: Frequently occurring side effects are dizziness, headache, and malaise. Drowsiness, somnolence, fatigue, and vertigo have also been seen. Almost all patients with cerebral cysticercosis experience CNS side effects related to the cell-death of the parasites (headache, worsening of preexisting neurological problems, seizures, arachnoiditis, and meningism). These side effects may be life-threatening and can be reduced by coadministration of corticosteroids. It is strongly recommended that all patients with cerebral cysticercosis are hospitalized during treatment.
* GI Tract: Approximately 90% of all patients have abdominal pain or cramps with or without nausea and vomiting. Diarrhea may develop and may be severe with colic. Sweating, fever, and sometimes bloody stools may occur together with diarrhea.
* Liver: Asymptomatic and transient increases of liver enzymes (AST and ALT) are noted frequently (up to 27%). No case of symptomatic liver damage has ever been seen so far.
* Sensitivity reactions: Urticaria, rash, pruritus and eosinophilia in White Blood Counts.
* Other locations/Body as a whole: Lower back pain, myalgia, arthralgia, fever, sweating, various cardiac arrhythmias, and hypotension.



Side effects of cucurbitacin in the dosage we spoke of:

*NONE

I will resurrect this thread later in the year after showing video documentation of using my mentioned method on various dogs. Perhaps it will not work on my trial, regardless I will document it, either way, we will all learn something. Learning is good !!!


Yet, I do have to state, all the advice here regarding going to a vet is the best advice, especially if you are not educated in Pharmaceutical Biology or canine health and nutrition.

Glad.. I saved my pumpkin seeds from last year, this is going to be a great learning experience. I was able to find some info on Bayer and Merk. I am very much aware of these companies, and since you mentioned a drug that they produced and recommend, I though you might be interested.

Bayer ( maker of Droncit)
Bayer Claims Cover-Up Was No Cover-Up // Pharmalot
Bayer Cropscience accused of cover-up in House hearings-- uses MTSA to hide behind national security | ControlGlobal Community
Is Bayer killing bees?
Bayer Documents: AIDS Tainted Blood Killed Thousands of Hemophiliacs

MerkKGAa (maker of Droncit)
Drug chiefs on price-fixing charges - Times Online
Merck & Co. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ( scroll to bottom)


I am lucky enough to not only afford medical healthcare for my dogs, yet should a tapeworm problem arise, I will put my money where my mouth is and bust out the pumpkin seeds after throroughly researching the medical literature provided and try to contact the humble, non- academic shepherds I have come across.

Thanks for the info on Droncit !

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Old 04-11-2010, 05:39 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Hi Nina,
Thanks for your copy paste post, it was very infomative. The reason I mentioned the price of vet care, is because last time I suggested "going to a vet" in a post for heartworm, several people commented on how it was too expensive and told the original poster they should dose the meds themselves. I also use natural cures and dose down my own wormers, but for a new owner, or a person with one dog, a vet is a better option.
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Old 04-12-2010, 01:14 AM   #29 (permalink)
 
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Although Nina has great info, I also have to agree with Beth. (I've really been agreeing with Beth these days.... Anywho, I do not know what type pumpkin my husband grows and I could care less actually. As far as goats, all I know is our neighbor has probably 20-30 goats, feeds them, breeds them, show them..... the whole shmeel. I don't know what kind they are....just goats I guess. The milk is extra cheap since we let them buy our hay for extra cheap!
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Old 04-12-2010, 05:05 PM   #30 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bethb2007 View Post
Hi Nina,
Thanks for your copy paste post, it was very infomative. The reason I mentioned the price of vet care, is because last time I suggested "going to a vet" in a post for heartworm, several people commented on how it was too expensive and told the original poster they should dose the meds themselves. I also use natural cures and dose down my own wormers, but for a new owner, or a person with one dog, a vet is a better option.

I agree 100%... even to a point where I almost wish I hadn't posted on my previous observations. I dont want people feeding their dogs pumpkin pie ...lol. To tell someone on the amthelmintic effects of cucurbitacin, and all they remember is pumpkin seeds.

Next week when somoene has a similar post I fear they will say " I heard you can give them pumpkins !", and then it's on me.

I agree with you 100%, like I've stated I ve SEEN this done, many times, not once, yet never did it myself, but i will this summer.

Im not a fan of Bayer or Merk and dont trust their clinical trials or the majority of their products, yet alone their morality. But your post was definitely more informative than mine, i just wanted to enlighten a few on what was being done for many years.

Cheers
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