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Old 11-18-2010, 04:20 AM   #16 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by wild_deuce03 View Post
I didn't read the whole thing, yet, but it seems that at a minimum you should wait until at least the dog is a year old to spay/neuter. Interesting. Thanks for posting the article. I had no idea of some of the risks associated with spay/neuter.

To add, I've also heard, though not from a reputable source, that you can stunt a dogs growth by spaying/neutering too young. Anyone know if there is any truth to that?
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Originally Posted by davidfitness83 View Post
I have seen first hand that early neutering a dog will not change behavior or decrease agression or marking. I am not sure with females and I gotta read more about it but nature gave mamals sex hormones to develop their bodies properly, if you take those away while the body is still developing it can cause problems.

I have read a publication that showed a control study of dogs getting bone cancer, growling taller, having orthopedic issues as well as irritable temperament from fixing.

I know why vets and the HSUS push neutering or spaying the dogs and I agree with it. Too many people can't contain their pets or too many backyard breeders breeding dogs crowding the shelters. However, a surgery is not a quick fix and people need to understand taht every dog is different.

I know a lady in FL who is member of many of the forums who has 6 or more APBT, 2 staffies, a JRT and a Patterdale. All working dogs that compete in events and none of them are fixed. She manages her pack with no problem and all of her dogs are healthy, and she is also all about homeophatic medicine.

Bernie is not fixed and he has never marked in my house or anyone's house that I have brought him to. He gets along with every dog and every cat he meets. I think training, socialization and breeding is what is the most important.
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Originally Posted by Atlanta Bully Rescue View Post
Since 1999, I have assisted and/or scheduled probably a thousand pediatric spays and neuters for puppies and kittens as young as 6-12 weeks old including most of my own pets. I currently work at a lowcost spay/neuter clinic. I've never had anyone complain that it caused health problems later on. Puppies and kittens actually recover a lot faster, they're literally running around that night like nothing ever happened while the adults can take days to recover. Unfixed dogs are also much more likely to get loose looking for a mate. And studies have actually shown that males neutered as puppies are on average an inch taller, so no it does not stunt their growth. Here are some links about pediatric spays and neuters:

Early Age Neutering: Perfect For Every Practice


Early Spay/neuter


Early Sterilization in Dogs and Cats


Early Spay/Neuter: An Overview


Spay & Neuter - ESP - Early Sterilization Program


Dog Owner's Guide: Early sterilization surgery


Compelling Arguments for Early Spay and Neuter of Cats


Pet Orphans - Atlanta's Dog and Cat Adoption Website
i just looked at the first four websites and saw that their sources are all from about 10-18 years ago. newer studies have shown different. not sure which is right though, obviously. even vets are up in the air on it.

edit: actually all of the ones that listed sources were over 10-18 years ago. the most recent i saw was 2000/2001. the cat ladies article on about.com i wouldn't even consider since she's just a writer who took some feline anatomy courses. always helpful reads though.

Last edited by mcmlxxxvii; 11-18-2010 at 04:31 AM.
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Old 11-18-2010, 05:43 AM   #17 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by mcmlxxxvii View Post
i just looked at the first four websites and saw that their sources are all from about 10-18 years ago. newer studies have shown different. not sure which is right though, obviously. even vets are up in the air on it.
You're right, I've been using these articles for a long time and I need to update my list I'm also going by personal experience of working at shelters and spay/neuter clinics where I've dealt with pediatric spays/neuters on almost a daily basis for the past 10+ years. I've worked with many vets and everyone of them was a supporter of pediatric spays and neuters. They say the surgeries are much easier therefore the puppies/kittens have to be under anesthesia for a significantly less amount of time. They also recover a lot faster with less complications. Here are a couple of more recent articles I found on a quick google search and I'll do some more in depth research in the next week and get some more:

wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/2010_V273.pdf
"There are several advantages to pediatric spay/neuter. In addition to the commonly accepted health benefits associated with ovariohysterectomy and castration, pediatric spay/neuter offers additional advantages. It is an effective tool in dealing with the overpopulation of unwanted dogs and cats. The surgical procedures are easier, faster, and less expensive. The incidence of perioperative complications is low as the surgical procedures and, thus, the anesthetic episodes, are significantly shorter. Anesthetic recovery and healing time is shorter."
"Obesity is a multi-factorial problem with a tendency to occur regardless of the age an animal is spayed. A long-term study conducted at Cornell found a decrease in obesity for both male and female dogs that had undergone pediatric ovariohysterectomy.
Initial concerns that pediatric spay/neuter may result in stunted growth have proven to be false. Removal of the hormonal influence actually results in a delayed closure of growth plates. The long bones of animals that undergo pediatric spay/neuter are actually a little longer than those of animals neutered after 6 months of age. There is no clinical significance to the delayed physeal closure.
Some have questioned if early age spay neuter results in an increased incidence of hip dysplasia. Research on this has proven to be equivocal. A study at Texas A&M has shown no increase in hip dysplasia, while a study at Cornell showed a slight increase in incidence. Interestingly, the Cornell study also showed that dogs sterilized at a traditional age were 3 times more likely to be euthanized due to hip dysplasia. This suggests that if early-age gonadectomy increases the incidence of hip dysplasia it may be a less severe form."

Early Spay And Neuter | MyPetsDoctor.com
"Mammary gland tumor growth in dogs and cats is greatly influenced by failure to remove the source of sex hormone from the patient while young. Dogs and cats spayed before their first heat cycle have a virtually zero risk of mammary cancer later in life. Those spayed after the first heat cycle still experience a significantly reduced incidence of mammary cancer. After the second heat cycle the beneficial effect is dramatically reduced. However, as you will see further down in this article, benefit is still achieved by having one’s pet spayed at almost any age."
"Another hormone-driven problem un-spayed dogs and cats suffer is infection of the uterus, called pyometra. The term derives from the Latin prefix pyo-, which means “pus,” and root metra, which means uterus. “Pus in the uterus” is the most extreme form of the disease, and is life-threatening.
The process usually starts with irregular heat cycles or a condition called pseudopregnancy, in which hormone imbalances cause the uterus to “think” it is pregnant and begin to accumulate fluid to accommodate the pregnancy. In the best case, hormone levels return to normal within sixty days and the fluid is reabsorbed into the body. Pseudopregnancy is likely to recur on future heat cycles.
The worst case is that cysts occur in the ovaries(see photo below, pencil points to cyst in ovary) and continue to produce an imbalance of hormones which maintain the fluid in the uterus. If bacteria from the vaginal vault ascend, pass the cervix and enter the nutrient-rich fluid, infection results. Fecal bacteria are the most common motile bacteria to achieve success and cause the worst infections. Fecal bacteria also produce toxins, thus poisoning the already-infected female dog or cat, and adding to the illness the pet experiences.
In the pictures you see below the uterus of this 11-year old Chihuahua is enlarged to approximately six times normal size. The uterus is fluid-filled and thin-walled. If not handled gingerly during surgical removal the uterus could easily rupture.
In more advanced cases pus (infection) may fill the uterus like a balloon, expanding it to twenty times normal size. If such a uterus bursts, spilling its toxin-heavy load of infection into the abdominal cavity, fast and expert emergency surgery must be performed to save the patient’s life."
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Old 11-18-2010, 07:16 AM   #18 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta Bully Rescue View Post
You're right, I've been using these articles for a long time and I need to update my list I'm also going by personal experience of working at shelters and spay/neuter clinics where I've dealt with pediatric spays/neuters on almost a daily basis for the past 10+ years. I've worked with many vets and everyone of them was a supporter of pediatric spays and neuters. They say the surgeries are much easier therefore the puppies/kittens have to be under anesthesia for a significantly less amount of time. They also recover a lot faster with less complications. Here are a couple of more recent articles I found on a quick google search and I'll do some more in depth research in the next week and get some more:

wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/2010_V273.pdf
"There are several advantages to pediatric spay/neuter. In addition to the commonly accepted health benefits associated with ovariohysterectomy and castration, pediatric spay/neuter offers additional advantages. It is an effective tool in dealing with the overpopulation of unwanted dogs and cats. The surgical procedures are easier, faster, and less expensive. The incidence of perioperative complications is low as the surgical procedures and, thus, the anesthetic episodes, are significantly shorter. Anesthetic recovery and healing time is shorter."
"Obesity is a multi-factorial problem with a tendency to occur regardless of the age an animal is spayed. A long-term study conducted at Cornell found a decrease in obesity for both male and female dogs that had undergone pediatric ovariohysterectomy.
Initial concerns that pediatric spay/neuter may result in stunted growth have proven to be false. Removal of the hormonal influence actually results in a delayed closure of growth plates. The long bones of animals that undergo pediatric spay/neuter are actually a little longer than those of animals neutered after 6 months of age. There is no clinical significance to the delayed physeal closure.
Some have questioned if early age spay neuter results in an increased incidence of hip dysplasia. Research on this has proven to be equivocal. A study at Texas A&M has shown no increase in hip dysplasia, while a study at Cornell showed a slight increase in incidence. Interestingly, the Cornell study also showed that dogs sterilized at a traditional age were 3 times more likely to be euthanized due to hip dysplasia. This suggests that if early-age gonadectomy increases the incidence of hip dysplasia it may be a less severe form."

Early Spay And Neuter | MyPetsDoctor.com
"Mammary gland tumor growth in dogs and cats is greatly influenced by failure to remove the source of sex hormone from the patient while young. Dogs and cats spayed before their first heat cycle have a virtually zero risk of mammary cancer later in life. Those spayed after the first heat cycle still experience a significantly reduced incidence of mammary cancer. After the second heat cycle the beneficial effect is dramatically reduced. However, as you will see further down in this article, benefit is still achieved by having one’s pet spayed at almost any age."
"Another hormone-driven problem un-spayed dogs and cats suffer is infection of the uterus, called pyometra. The term derives from the Latin prefix pyo-, which means “pus,” and root metra, which means uterus. “Pus in the uterus” is the most extreme form of the disease, and is life-threatening.
The process usually starts with irregular heat cycles or a condition called pseudopregnancy, in which hormone imbalances cause the uterus to “think” it is pregnant and begin to accumulate fluid to accommodate the pregnancy. In the best case, hormone levels return to normal within sixty days and the fluid is reabsorbed into the body. Pseudopregnancy is likely to recur on future heat cycles.
The worst case is that cysts occur in the ovaries(see photo below, pencil points to cyst in ovary) and continue to produce an imbalance of hormones which maintain the fluid in the uterus. If bacteria from the vaginal vault ascend, pass the cervix and enter the nutrient-rich fluid, infection results. Fecal bacteria are the most common motile bacteria to achieve success and cause the worst infections. Fecal bacteria also produce toxins, thus poisoning the already-infected female dog or cat, and adding to the illness the pet experiences.
In the pictures you see below the uterus of this 11-year old Chihuahua is enlarged to approximately six times normal size. The uterus is fluid-filled and thin-walled. If not handled gingerly during surgical removal the uterus could easily rupture.
In more advanced cases pus (infection) may fill the uterus like a balloon, expanding it to twenty times normal size. If such a uterus bursts, spilling its toxin-heavy load of infection into the abdominal cavity, fast and expert emergency surgery must be performed to save the patient’s life."
thanks! it is late so i will have to read through this stuff tomorrow.
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Old 11-18-2010, 11:25 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I think it comes down to responsible ownership if you know your dog can get a household dog knocked up or your dog can easily escape and get another dog pregnant than fix the dog.

I have neutered two dogs that showed no sign of improvements of behavior at all. Dog aggression is coded into the breed DNA and surgery won't take that away. Marking inside the home is lack of house training. My intact dog is more stable and more obedient than both dogs that I neutered. In fact up to this day he has never peed inside our home or his crate and I got him at 8 weeks of age.
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Old 11-18-2010, 02:33 PM   #20 (permalink)
 
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Well, I guess I have some reading to do before I make a decision on when to spay Athena. My yard is fenced in, but I'd hate to have her get out and get pregnant. I'm vigilant about the gates but stuff happens. Either way, Duke will be getting neutered soon!!! I would hate for him to get Athena pregnant!!!!

My neighbor has a mutt (intact) chained up out back and they also have a female pit/lab mix (at leat that's what it looks like). The poor dog isn't even a year yet and just had a litter of puppies a couple weeks ago, , because they just leave them out by themselves all the time!!!
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Old 11-18-2010, 03:11 PM   #21 (permalink)
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As long as you have control of your dogs and they are not left alone in the yard you are ok. My dog can easily hop the fence if he really wanted to but I never leave unattended in the yard so I dont worry. Inside the home he is crated and there are no females for him to get pregnat. When we go out on walks he has heavy duty gear so he would have to break it which is impossible for him to get away.
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Old 11-18-2010, 03:14 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by wild_deuce03 View Post
Well, I guess I have some reading to do before I make a decision on when to spay Athena. My yard is fenced in, but I'd hate to have her get out and get pregnant. I'm vigilant about the gates but stuff happens. Either way, Duke will be getting neutered soon!!! I would hate for him to get Athena pregnant!!!!

My neighbor has a mutt (intact) chained up out back and they also have a female pit/lab mix (at leat that's what it looks like). The poor dog isn't even a year yet and just had a litter of puppies a couple weeks ago, , because they just leave them out by themselves all the time!!!
i say get her fixed, a bitch in heat will hop a 10" fence like its nothing and i know you don't want to deal with that
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Old 11-18-2010, 03:17 PM   #23 (permalink)
 
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For anyone interested in spaying and neutering their pit bulls, PBRC offers financial assistance to people all over the world. They pay the vet directly for the surgery. All you have to do is fill out this short form: Pit Bull Rescue Central
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Old 11-18-2010, 03:19 PM   #24 (permalink)
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not to mention I've seen dogs tie through a chain link fence before, dog didn't even have to jump the fence a stray just came along and got it done then the owner came out and had to figure out how to get them apart.... no fun XD
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Old 11-18-2010, 03:19 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Here's two more links regarding early Spay-Neuter considerations. I usually don't do my males until about 5 but, I do my females early because I don't want an accident to happen plus I hate the mess. Although I do regret getting Ivy spayed.

Spaying the Canine Athlete

To Spay or Neuter
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Old 11-18-2010, 04:07 PM   #26 (permalink)
 
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not to mention I've seen dogs tie through a chain link fence before, dog didn't even have to jump the fence a stray just came along and got it done then the owner came out and had to figure out how to get them apart.... no fun XD
Hey, I've seen that happen before aslo!!
My neighbor has a full bred boxer. Last year she went into heat for the first time and a (stray)great dane mix locked up with her. No one would have known if he didn't start yelping. It took forever trying to get them apart.
She went and had an emergency spay immediately after.

It just goes to show how determined some are!!!
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Old 11-18-2010, 05:50 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I don't think I'll ever leave a male intact, and I wouldn't want to wait till over a year either. My reasons are intact males are always trouble when the smell a female in heat. Mack Truck was the worst and I wish Ryan would have neutered him when M.J. got spayed. He was horrible. He would constantly whine at the door, try to escape when he was outside and the worst ever was humping the air. He would just stand in the middle of the yard with his stuff all hanging out. It was way gross and I don't want any more dogs to do it.



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Old 11-18-2010, 05:58 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I don't think I'll ever leave a male intact, and I wouldn't want to wait till over a year either. My reasons are intact males are always trouble when the smell a female in heat. Mack Truck was the worst and I wish Ryan would have neutered him when M.J. got spayed. He was horrible. He would constantly whine at the door, try to escape when he was outside and the worst ever was humping the air. He would just stand in the middle of the yard with his stuff all hanging out. It was way gross and I don't want any more dogs to do it.
very true and with a female you have to deal with them BEING in heat, acting all weird bleedin all over the place, i swear any dog we have go through a heat with us would always LOVE to start when sitting in your lap, you would look down and "well lovely blood all over my new jeans" it's pretty gross
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Old 11-18-2010, 08:56 PM   #29 (permalink)
 
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thanks for all the helpful info/opinions!

& thanks ABR for the links!
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:30 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I had my pup spayed at 5 months, a couple weeks shy of her 6 month birthday. Why? Because she had severe demodedic mange and from all the research I had done, it said it was best to spay them before their first heat, as a female with demo mange going into heat is very stressful on their bodies. Also I was always taught that 6 to 8 months was appropriate. I would never spay or neuter a dog younger than 5 months. I would not have had her spayed so soon if it were not for the mange problem.
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