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Old 06-20-2013, 07:20 AM   #1 (permalink)
 

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American Staffordshire terriers

I know that AKC choose to recognize the apbt as amstaff and distance themselves from the fighting dog and its rep.What I don't know is who actually started the amstaff who or how was is made.I seen someone post on FB that*Joe Corvino using his red devil*line started the amstaff dog.And Colby and Tudor followed suit.I really don't think this is true but again I only know so much when ot comes to history of these breeds.
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:53 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by doughboi View Post
I know that AKC choose to recognize the apbt as amstaff and distance themselves from the fighting dog and its rep.What I don't know is who actually started the amstaff who or how was is made.I seen someone post on FB that*Joe Corvino using his red devil*line started the amstaff dog.And Colby and Tudor followed suit.I really don't think this is true but again I only know so much when ot comes to history of these breeds.
The Staffordshire Terrier (that was the original name) was started in 1936 when AKC recognized the Parent Club and it's standard. The Club was a GROUP of people, not just one person. It was a group of UKC Pit Bull owners which wanted to be able to show their dogs in conformation shows, which UKC did not have at the time; and to also promote the dogs as something other than just fighting dogs.

This group drew up a standard (which has been unchanged since 1936) and originally tried to get recognition under the same name it had in UKC (American Pit Bull Terrier) and then they tried for "American Bull Terrier". Both were shot down. Staffordshire Terrier was the compromise (not liked by a LOT of breeders); agreed upon because of the relationship of the American Pit Bull Terrier to the dogs in England, which had become recognized as a breed THERE in 1935 under the name Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

The AKC books were opened up in 1936 and American Pit Bull Terriers were allowed into AKC, to be called Staffordshire Terriers. (They also kept their UKC registration as American Pit Bull Terriers.). SOME of the dogs bred as STs in AKC maintained their UKC registration; many others did not. UKC later allowed those STs which had NOT kept up their UKC registration to be allowed back in as APBTs under single registration. Some still do this today.

Colby and Tudor were some of many that did register some of their dogs into AKC. AKC allowed APBTs to be registered as STs for many years. (I do not know when the books were closed). More recently, (early 70s?), the AKC books were opened up to UKC APBTs for a while, then closed for good.

Staffordshire Terrier was changed to AMERICAN Staffordshire Terrier in 1976 I think it was -- when the Staffordshire Bull Terrier from England was recognized by AKC. This was done to avoid breed name confusion. BUT, they still get confused anyway!
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Old 02-28-2014, 01:12 AM   #3 (permalink)
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THey had the option to have American Pit Bull Terrier and refused because many of the fanciers had invested in the American Staffordshire name..

it wasn't just this person or that person.. IT was Colbys Primo the AKC decided to make the format for what an AmStaff should be. Colbys Primo was an APBT and his sister litter mate was a 2x er and IT was EVERYONE who wanted to get a lil of their Old Family stuff into the AKC show ring for what ever reason who knows. Im guessing.. $$$$$$
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Old 02-28-2014, 04:09 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
THey had the option to have American Pit Bull Terrier and refused because many of the fanciers had invested in the American Staffordshire name..
Not at all. There wasn't even a "Staffordshire Terrier" name until they (the Parent Club) tried to get the name the breed was in UKC (American Pit Bull Terrier); and when that was shot down BY AKC, they tried for "American Bull Terrier" which was again denied (it is thought that the Bull Terrier Club of America had something to say about THAT one!).

The name was not liked by a lot of Pit Bull people and because of that one fact, they refused to register their dogs with AKC.

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Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
IT was Colbys Primo the AKC decided to make the format for what an AmStaff should be.
Was it? The following is something I put together several years ago. Perhaps it will lend a little more information about the Primo legend:

Colby's Primo - Myth or Fact?

I've heard the Primo story for years -- about how he was the model for the American Staffordshire Terrier standard. The story had always been on the edges of what I knew about the breed and I hadn't thought too much about it, until the advent of the Internet -- and then the story became quite pervasive and I was hearing it everywhere and it was used with authority.

So, curiosity got the best of me and I started doing a little digging. While I was in Texas (1995 to 2007), I had the advantage of picking the brains of people that have been in the breed longer than many of you have been alive and who had conversations with Mr. Wilford T. Brandon, founder of the Staffordshire Terrier Club of America and author of the Standard.

In an article which appears in the 2002 Hoflin Annual, Wayne Brown (author of the book, "History of the Pit Bull Terrier" writes (this information is NOT new, but Wayne has recently written a lot of it down in a concise way in the STCA Quarterly and the Annuals):

"Bill Brandon was a fellow Texan and he told me that he wrote the Staffordshire Terrier standard using the UKC APBT Standard and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier Standard from England. Others have said that he also used the standard of the American Bull Terrier Club of Clay Center, Kansas and even others have said that he also used a famous dual registered UKC/ADBA American Pit Bull Terrier named Colby's Primo as a model for the Standard. The AKC approved the Standard on June 9, 1936".

In my conversations with Wayne, he tells me that he does remember Brandon telling him about using the SBT and UKC Standards, but does not remember him saying anything about Primo. Richard Gray (Rounders Kennel) says the same thing, adding "....and he (Brandon) talked a LOT!"

Remember, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier had achieved recognition by the English Kennel Club in 1935. Jackie Fraser writes in "The American Staffordshire Terrier":

"Brandon studied the Standards of other breeds while trading ideas with Jack Barnard and Joseph Dunn of England who were working to gain recognition for the SBT in their country. Utilizing this information along with a mental picture of the best Pit Bulls he had ever seen, he wrote the Standard for the breed which is still serving today."

So the author of the ST Standard, Brandon, kept in touch with his counterparts in England, and the English dog was granted recognition in 1935.

Fraser continues:

"On May 23, 1936, the first official meeting of the Staffordshire Terrier Club of America took place. The Standard was adopted and a resolution was passed to grant full recognition to the breed under the name Staffordshire Terrier. On June 9, 1936, the fledgling club was advised that the AKC had granted the request.

So, we see that the Standard as written was adopted by STCA (Staffordshire Terrier Club of America) in May of 1936.

I mention these dates because they become kind of important when you learn when Colby's Primo was whelped. According to a letter from STCA to Louis Colby in 1943, (in which AKC registration certificates were sent to Colby for some of his dogs), Primo was whelped on May 29, 1935, sired by Colby's Brandy out of Colby's Mabel. This would have made Primo almost exactly one year old on the day the Standard was adopted by the STCA on May 23, 1936.

Here is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier Standard which was in effect in 1936, so this is the one under which that breed achieved recognition in 1935 in England:

GENERAL APPEARANCE - The SBT is a smooth-coated dog, standing about 15"-18" high at the shoulder. He should give the impression of great strength for his size, and although muscular should be active and agile.
HEAD - Short, deep through, broad skull, very pronounced cheek muscles, distinct stop, short foreface, mouth level.
EARS - Rose, half prick and prick; these three to be preferred, full drop to be penalized.
EYES - Dark
NECK - Should be muscular and rather short.
BODY - Short back, deep brisket, light in loins with forelegs set rather wide apart to permit of chest development.
FRONT LEGS - Straight, feet well padded, to turn out a little and showing no weakness at pasterns.
HIND LEGS - Hindquarters well muscled, let down at hocks like a terrier.
COAT - Short, smooth and close to skin.
TAIL - The tail should be of medium length tapering to a point and carried rather low; it should not curl much and may be compared with an old-fashioned pump handle.
WEIGHT - Dogs 28 - 38 lbs. Bitches 4 lbs. less.
COLOR - May be any shade of brindle, black, white, fawn or red, or any of these colors with white. Black and tan and liver not to be encouraged.
FAULTS TO BE PENALIZED - Dudley nose, light or pink eyes (rims), tail too long or badly curled, badly undershot or overshot mouths.


Any of that look familiar?


Now, the UKC American Pit Bull Terrier Standard in effect in 1936...


HEAD - Medium length, bricklike in shape, skull flat and widest at the ears, with prominent cheeks, free from wrinkles.
MUZZLE - Square, wide and deep, well pronounced jaws, displaying strength. Upper teeth to meet tightly over lower teeth, outside in front.
EARS - Cropped or uncropped (not important), should set high on head, and free from wrinkles.
EYES - Dark and round; should set far apart low down on skull.
NOSE - Black preferred with wide open nostrils.
NECK - Muscular, slightly arched, tapering from shoulder to head, free from looseness of skin.
SHOULDERS - Strong and muscular with wide sloping shoulder blades.
BACK - Short and strong, slightly slopng from withers to rump.
Slightly arched at loins which should be slightly tucked.
CHEST - Deep but not too broad, with wide sprung ribs.
RIBS - Close, well-sprung, with deep back ribs.
TAIL - Short in comparison to size, set low and tapering to a fine point, not carried over the back.
LEGS - Large round boned, with straight upright pasterns reasonably strong. Feet to be of medium size. Gait should be light and springy. No rolling or pacing.
THIGHS - Long with muscles developed. Hocks down and straight.
COAT - Glossy, short and stiff to the touch.
COLOR - Any color or marking permissible.
WEIGHT - Not important. Females preferred from thirty to fifty pounds. Males from thirty-five to sixty pounds.


Okay, here is the Standard for the Staffordshire Terrier which went into effect in 1936 and has never been changed.

General Impression:

The American Staffordshire Terrier should give the impression of great strength for his size, a well put-together dog, muscular, but agile and graceful, keenly alive to his surroundings. He should be stocky, not long-legged or racy in outline. His courage is proverbial.

Head:

Medium length, deep through, broad skull, very pronounced cheek muscles, distinct stop; and ears are set high. Ears - Cropped or uncropped, the latter preferred. Uncropped ears should be short and held half prick or rose. Full drop to be penalized. Eyes - Dark and round, low down in skull and set far apart. No pink eyelids. Muzzle - Medium length, rounded on upper side to fall away abruptly below eyes. Jaws well defined. Underjaw to be strong and have biting power. Lips close and even, no looseness. Upper teeth to meet tightly outside lower teeth in front. Nose definitely black.

Neck:
Heavy, slightly arched, tapering from shoulders to back of skull. No looseness of skin. Medium length.

Shoulders:
Strong and muscular with blades wide and sloping.

Back:
Fairly short. Slight sloping from withers to rump with gentle short slope at rump to base of tail. Loins slightly tucked.

Body:
Well-sprung ribs, deep in rear. All ribs close together. Forelegs set rather wide apart to permit of chest development. Chest deep and broad.

Tail:
Short in comparison to size, low set, tapering to a fine point; not curled or held over back. Not docked.

Legs:
The front legs should be straight, large or round bones, pastern upright. No semblance of bend in front. Hindquarters well muscled, let down at hocks turning neither in nor out. Feet of moderate size, well-arched and compact. Gait must be springy but without roll or pace.

Coat:
Short, close, stiff to the touch and glossy.

Color:
Any color, solid, parti, or patched is permissible, but all white, more than 80 percent white, black and tan and liver not to be encouraged.

Size:
Height and weight should be in proportion. A height of about 18 to 19 inches at the shoulders for the male and 17 to 18 inches for the female is to be considered preferable.

Faults:
Faults to be penalized are Dudley nose, light or pink eyes, tail too long or badly carried, undershot or overshot mouths.
Adopted and approved June 10, 1936.


It seems fairly obvious what sources Brandon drew on for his Standard. Primo's birthdate just seems too late for him to have been used the way the "legend" states -- as the "model" for the Staffordshire Terrier Standard. Richard Gray and Wayne Brown do not remember Brandon ever mentioning Primo and Brandon "talked a LOT!" Neither Jackie Fraser or Richard Pascoe mention Primo in their books on the breed.

So how did the Primo legend get started? Wayne Brown conjectures that AFTER the fact, Colby declared he had on his yard a dog that matched the AKC Standard - and he very well could have in Primo, who appears to be a very nice dog from the pictures.

But was he THE MODEL for the Staffordshire Terrier Standard? I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just presenting additional evidence to what has been out there....

Edited to add: The AKC does not write the Standards -- the Parent club does and owns them....AKC didn't do any "formatting" of Primo as a model. If it came from anywhere, it would have come from Brandon and other STCA Parent club founders who wrote the Standard.

Last edited by Carla Restivo; 02-28-2014 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 02-28-2014, 05:44 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Yes ... that pretty simple.. up until Primos colby .. then it is as such. WHY ?? look at every Staff.

OH..

Heres a partial list of late 1800 early 1900 dogs, that were UKC and registered AKC as AST.

Robinson Paddy AKC 1898
Naimour AKC 1899
Jack the Ripper II AKC 1903
Colby's Tim AKC 1905
Plunger AKC 1906 (sired by the great pincher)
Corbetts Paddy 1905 (sired by pincher as well)

all these dogs were UKC first then registered as AKC ASTs.. UKC began in 1898.

FROM the STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER CLUB to Mr. Louis Colby
... ... ... The Grand Ol' Breed (formerly known as The American Pit Bull Terrier or Yankee Terrier. ... is the foot header.

Cammetts Flash in 1939 has offspring registered As a APBT, AST, and a SBT

Staffordshire was used before the big move to America .. its was so dubbed for the region in England, thus the Manchester as well.. The Staffordshire is the TRUE bulldog that was propaganda that renamed the dog because as today we take it and run. For a period in American history they were all staffordshires simple as that.

what ever you will ... the AKC needed the UKC .. not the other way around .. just as now they need the ADBA dogs both registeries. If they care about traditional working dogs. The AST name was just a good way to make money off people who like to boast how much they spent on what they have. JMO Because the AKC has caused a great disbelief that if they don't recognize it, it aint a breed of dog. AKC stock is not my cup of tea, I have had a couple and still have them, not a fan... not a fan, no matter the breed. Give me a working dog registry. Dogs define their genetics through function; humans define them on looks. (at least the AKC folks)
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Old 03-01-2014, 04:59 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
Yes ... that pretty simple.. up until Primos colby .. then it is as such. WHY ?? look at every Staff.
Okay, I don't know what this means...could you use quotes or something?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
Heres a partial list of late 1800 early 1900 dogs, that were UKC and registered AKC as AST.

Robinson Paddy AKC 1898
Naimour AKC 1899
Jack the Ripper II AKC 1903
Colby's Tim AKC 1905
Plunger AKC 1906 (sired by the great pincher)
Corbetts Paddy 1905 (sired by pincher as well)

all these dogs were UKC first then registered as AKC ASTs.. UKC began in 1898.
Well, these dogs certainly could have been registered and shown in AKC; but if they were, it was under the breed Bull Terrier. There just wasn't a "Staffordshire Terrier" in AKC until 1936 (The name was changed in 1976 to American Staffordshire Terrier).

The Bull Terrier and the evolution of the colored Bull Terrier along with the dogs that were often called "American Bull Terriers" made for a confusing scene in the early days of these bull and terrier breeds. All were much more alike back then. Somehow, some Pit Bulls (called American Bull Terriers as well as American Pit Bull Terriers), did get registered into AKC as Bull Terriers (I'm sure you know, this is the white, egg-headed dog). Bull Terriers had been an AKC breed since 1885 and were quite a powerful Parent Club within AKC. There are some old Dog World articles that document this little piece of history, but I don't have access to them right now. I'd love to see them if you have them!

I don't believe this (Pit Bulls being registered as Bull Terriers) lasted very long. The Pit Bull came to stay for good in AKC in 1936 when it was recognized as the Staffordshire Terrier.

But that IS a neat little piece of history about the Pit Bulls that DID get registered and shown as Bull Terriers for a while!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
Cammetts Flash in 1939 has offspring registered As a APBT, AST, and a SBT
Cammet's Flash probably had offspring registered as Staffordshire Terrier; as the name was not American Staffordshire Terrier until 1976. The Staffordshire Bull Terrier did not exist in AKC in 1939; it WAS a breed in the English Kennel Club starting in 1935. When there was enough interest, along with a Parent Club to foster the SBT breed in THIS country, AKC did bring them on board, but that was in 1976.

Another little historical aside....when the English dog came into AKC, there was again confusion! Some of those very first Staffordshire Bull Terriers got bred to America Staffordshire Terriers and the progeny registered as American Staffordshire Terriers! It didn't last long and was only a few litters; but it does illustrate the confusion of history and names that has existed when it comes to the bull and terrier breeds!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Firehazard View Post
what ever you will ... the AKC needed the UKC .. not the other way around .. just as now they need the ADBA dogs both registeries. If they care about traditional working dogs. The AST name was just a good way to make money off people who like to boast how much they spent on what they have. JMO Because the AKC has caused a great disbelief that if they don't recognize it, it aint a breed of dog. AKC stock is not my cup of tea, I have had a couple and still have them, not a fan... not a fan, no matter the breed. Give me a working dog registry. Dogs define their genetics through function; humans define them on looks. (at least the AKC folks)
Aaaaaaand, I really don't know what this means...could you quote what you are referring to?
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Old 03-01-2014, 06:14 PM   #7 (permalink)
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They're all the same DNA.. the difference is GENETIC TASK and preservation of genes..

They're all the same dog "bulldog" what sub strain or line or what ever is what varies.

The early APBT was called the GAME BULL TERRIER and advertised as so. SO when HINKS from England same time those dogs were here made his X's to advert the populous. They were using propagand yet again to change the idea in the hearts and minds of the masses of what the BULLDOG was.

The Original Bulldog went into the fighting [] and was forever dubbed "Pit Bull" ... dog or terrier is all about traits, region, and task. Because the PIT TERRIER and the PIT BULLDOG are born of each other.

SBTs are the REAL bulldog and source of Irish, American dogs primarily with some spanish dogs creepin in there and some german as well. They are closer to the TRUE PIT BULLDOG than most ASTs. See.. both APBT and AST come from the genetic strain most call SBT its not .. thats the show aspect of it, because the working aspect was called .... GAME BULL TERRIER before the SBT was a name in the registry and after.. BY THE WAY.. King George II or the III decided on the staffordshire name when he called his pug bulldog x the english bulldog and forever changed the dna of the Bulldog and thus dubbed English Bulldog ... Propaganda EARLY on. Staffordshire was a slang term so it adopted right in The extinct game white english terrier is a manchester derivative and the closest to that in todays world you'll see is an imported pincher .. not a doberman, or a minnie.. a pincher. simple as that. From the same genetic pull and kept true to function.

What does genetic task mean?? Well it means Sled dogs are picked from proven workers not from AKC husky breeders who don't run a dog much more than for a cute pic or back yard fun. NOT THE SAME CRITTER as an Alaskan Husky and cannot keep up although DNA wise they may be near identical. The dogs bred for function WORK the dogs bred to look pretty and balanced .. look pretty and balanced
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Old 03-01-2014, 06:19 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Well, okay then.
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