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Old 09-04-2010, 08:47 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Cree's progression:

Right now we're at the beginning stages of building the drive for protection work. We're working on basic obedience during the week.

Today was the first day doing Obedience work on the field. He was distracted at first by the other dog, but has shown great improvement over the last 2 weeks for his dog aggression. I had to give one moderate correction on the pinch. We've been working on going to more public places, and tried the dog parks parking lot yesterday, it was a flop because it was too hot for the other owners to be out with their dogs.

One thing that I'm running into an issue with is getting cree to be motivated to "pop" in place for the heel command. once he's in place he heels just fine, it's just having him "get" to his place if that makes any sense.

His recalls are slower than i would like, pretty dependable but still slow pokish.


We've mastered the "down stay" he gets restless by minute 2.


We're playing the flirt pole and that is his FAVORITE toy in the world. I am happy for how it went. He screams at the toy and hits the end of his lead with a good amount of force. Never has readjusted his grip nor did he give the helper the toy.

EDIT: the helper wants to test him out on the tug next saturday.
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:07 PM   #2 (permalink)
 
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Cool!!! are you using food or a toy for a recall? If you stop using motivation items like toys or food the drive can begin to fall because they lose interest in you. You have to stay interesting and food and toys never go away unless your trailing. There has to be some sort of reward for doing a good job, like a pay check. It can be toys or food or both.

for the heel command have you taught him how to return to heel by walking around you and lining up or flipping in from the left? If not you have to teach that so he understands how to get to the heel position. That is really easily taught with food and I can add that to the videos I make for you just let me know.
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:13 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Cool!!! are you using food or a toy for a recall? If you stop using motivation items like toys or food the drive can begin to fall because they lose interest in you. You have to stay interesting and food and toys never go away unless your trailing. There has to be some sort of reward for doing a good job, like a pay check. It can be toys or food or both.

for the heel command have you taught him how to return to heel by walking around you and lining up or flipping in from the left? If not you have to teach that so he understands how to get to the heel position. That is really easily taught with food and I can add that to the videos I make for you just let me know.
Cree is all food... more like all pepperonis (he lost interest in the hotdogs). I'll use more treats and praise.

I've been trying the "flip" approach. Peggy and mel seems to get it, it's not PERFECT, but dang near it but they are a heck of a lot more motivated than cree. Like peg, i can be in my front yard, and say "PEG! HEEEL!" and from the back yard peggy will run in and flip to my side (not always lined up perfectly, but we're getting there lol)
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:18 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Starve cree down then if he is not hungry enough to get really excited in food. I would withhold food for 24 hours before training. Sometimes longer depending on how low the food drive is. Time to go on the working dog diet! lol
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:20 PM   #5 (permalink)
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lol i am going to have to do the 24 hr again. (i had to when we were doing his reg. ob class). They always skip dinner, and get fed after work.
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:39 PM   #6 (permalink)
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lol to many satin balls, he's getting spoild roffl
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Old 09-04-2010, 11:48 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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we have had our dogs doing protection work and other things and the working dogs diet can be a hard one but in the end its well worth it. just keep trying and let him know your are proud of him with my dogs even if they d=fail at something we keep on praising them we dont discipline becouse that can make them less likely to want to work.
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:39 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Well, this week went rather well. It was action packed all weekend long! I went out both saturday and sunday to work the dogs. I started working the BH pattern this week.

Cree is transitioning to the tug nicely. One of the helpers described him as a kids Tonka Truck with four wheel drive lol.

His recalls did get better, I tackled three things with him.... on friday he had half of his dinner, and then on saturday i skipped it completely as well as increasing the distance between us and new treats... string cheese.

His heeling motivation has increased, got "yelled" at for treating from my right hand because he explained it would cause forging. he did look at the ground a quarter of the healing exercise, but i don't blame him it's more healing than i have done with him in one sitting.

On saturday I threw cree through a loop during his long down. Where we have to do our long down it's right behind the A frame. The handler on the field told me to move cree because he wanted to do his dumb bell work, but i refused and told him i would step on the leash. well, when the dumb bell came over cree cocked his head, but didn't break but boy oh boy when a DOG came over the jump he screamed and tried to break three times resulting in giving himself his correction. I praised him like crazy and gave him a bunch of treats and even though he got a correction you could see that cree was proud of himself lmao!
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Old 09-13-2010, 04:15 PM   #9 (permalink)
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GOOD JOB CREE!!!! that's awesome shana, i'm glad you see his improvment
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:31 PM   #10 (permalink)
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That is great Shana!! Give Cree some string cheese for me. He is doing so well.



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Old 09-15-2010, 08:21 PM   #11 (permalink)
 
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sounds like he is doing good but a few things I can see happen.

One is you will not be liked if you dog goes after other dogs when they are working a skill like that. It is important to work cree through distraction but if it was a soft dog that Cree was going after you can screw them up in training. Let them know Cree may go after thier dog and you want to correct Cree, but ask if it is ok for thier dog to have dree go after them. If I would have been working one of my softer dogas I would would have chewed you out big time. That is a big pet peeve of mine in training, you can work out your dogs issues as long as it does not effect my dogs training.

So next time make t\sure they know what cree may do and see if they do not mind you work with cree on that. For example if I had Siren I would say sure lets set your dog up, but if I had Trinity or Tempest I would say no. So make sure you are liked by your club and you work this out with them

I might not have given Cree treats or maybe way after the excersies just make sure you are not in anyway treating for aggression. If you treat to soon after the behavior even if he got corrected you could send mixed signals.....

Just send Cree to me after I have Justin, I will fix that for you lol

good job and keep up the good work!
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Old 09-15-2010, 09:25 PM   #12 (permalink)
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From doing so much research and reading on guard breeds and meeting a few working specimens I don't think starving the dog a day prior to make it work for a treat is a such a great idea in the long run.

Perhaps your dog will listen to you when he hasn't eaten in 24 hours but what if you need the dog to work and listen to your commnads when it has eaten in a regular basis?

I am just sharing my opinion and I hope you don't take this the wrong way.. but if it is that difficult to get the dog to follow a recall command, or follow a command in a distracting scenario then perhaps he doesn't have the drive or wiring to do the task or sport you are asking for it to do. You know I am no expert and I might be wrong but to me it doesn't sound like your dog has the drive or wiring to do this type of work, or maybe I am 100% wrong and you just have to tweak the reward system and bonding to make sure the dog is not constantly relying on food to continue following a command and if it is starved to be hungry enough to listen to get a treat.

I was having this chat with a member in a molosser who owns a bunch of working molossers (Caucasian Ovcharka, Italian Corso and a few Rotties) forum and we discussing how most molossers wouldn't do such a great job with police work because of their stubborness and dominance they are not bred to please, these dogs are bred to follow their instincts and take over in dangerous situation. Pit dogs have the dog agression going against them because it tries to override every other cognitive process so this makes them difficult to focus on you when placed in this scenarios ( I know this is not in every case as there are titled pitdogs in protection sports). Mallinois or Shepherd type dogs in my opinion want to please before anything else.
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Old 09-17-2010, 10:46 PM   #13 (permalink)
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From doing so much research and reading on guard breeds and meeting a few working specimens I don't think starving the dog a day prior to make it work for a treat is a such a great idea in the long run.

Perhaps your dog will listen to you when he hasn't eaten in 24 hours but what if you need the dog to work and listen to your commnads when it has eaten in a regular basis?

I am just sharing my opinion and I hope you don't take this the wrong way.. but if it is that difficult to get the dog to follow a recall command, or follow a command in a distracting scenario then perhaps he doesn't have the drive or wiring to do the task or sport you are asking for it to do. You know I am no expert and I might be wrong but to me it doesn't sound like your dog has the drive or wiring to do this type of work, or maybe I am 100% wrong and you just have to tweak the reward system and bonding to make sure the dog is not constantly relying on food to continue following a command and if it is starved to be hungry enough to listen to get a treat.

I was having this chat with a member in a molosser who owns a bunch of working molossers (Caucasian Ovcharka, Italian Corso and a few Rotties) forum and we discussing how most molossers wouldn't do such a great job with police work because of their stubborness and dominance they are not bred to please, these dogs are bred to follow their instincts and take over in dangerous situation. Pit dogs have the dog agression going against them because it tries to override every other cognitive process so this makes them difficult to focus on you when placed in this scenarios ( I know this is not in every case as there are titled pitdogs in protection sports). Mallinois or Shepherd type dogs in my opinion want to please before anything else.
David, you know I don't get all sensitive with you lol!

I only run into that dilema durring the obedience portion, I have been thinking about trying to switch motivation from food to toys. If I put cree away for any ammount of time, even skipping a week with him, I have to build him back up. Cree had been put away for a month or so while we did mel's obedience class and I only had my little beater Neon that could only transport one crate lol. Now, I have the tundra and i can fit all three puppies crates in the bed of the truck. I was just spinning my wheels, figuratively speaking, only being able to transport one dog at a time and work with new distractions while working 50ish hours a week. Cree, unlike all of my other dogs, does not have the willingness to please.... it's cree's way or the highway. lol


Idk, i figure if his only gripe in life is that he has to down when i say down he's got it made in the shade! It is different having to work with a DA proned dog, but it is very much possible when you're dedicated to training. Not that it removes the DA by any means, but it strengthen the bond between you and your dog. I have noticed a significant improvement in our working bond over the last few weeks and I feel as though it's very promising and i know we'll only grow as a team. I will not be out there winning the USA regionals or nationals (not possible because i don't have GSDs) , but the dogs and me are out there having fun.


Oh yeah,
I only did that with the food saturday because we did a small tracking exercise and that IS the general concensus (sp?), you need a hungry dog to start tracking.

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sounds like he is doing good but a few things I can see happen.

One is you will not be liked if you dog goes after other dogs when they are working a skill like that. It is important to work cree through distraction but if it was a soft dog that Cree was going after you can screw them up in training. Let them know Cree may go after thier dog and you want to correct Cree, but ask if it is ok for thier dog to have dree go after them. If I would have been working one of my softer dogas I would would have chewed you out big time. That is a big pet peeve of mine in training, you can work out your dogs issues as long as it does not effect my dogs training.

So next time make t\sure they know what cree may do and see if they do not mind you work with cree on that. For example if I had Siren I would say sure lets set your dog up, but if I had Trinity or Tempest I would say no. So make sure you are liked by your club and you work this out with them

I might not have given Cree treats or maybe way after the excersies just make sure you are not in anyway treating for aggression. If you treat to soon after the behavior even if he got corrected you could send mixed signals.....

Just send Cree to me after I have Justin, I will fix that for you lol

good job and keep up the good work!
Lisa, the handler was my "trainer". After having a short discussion, He understood and worked with what we had at the moment. The dog he was working was not a softy by any means. Ike (the other dog), came back to him a month or so back and was trained mainly by e collar work. He's definitely not a softy.

I may have screwed the treats up, but i don't think i did, i treated after he looked up at me which was about 2.5-3 seconds after his self inflicted corrections and was intent on not moving. I didn't treat between corrections. Does that make sense?
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2 things you see never followin A hearse,A wells fargo truck and A U-haul.
I love my Gator Mouth, Tiger Striped, Diamond Back, Scorpion Tail, Dragon Breath, Lizard Claw, Silver Back, Fat dogs.
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Old 09-18-2010, 06:55 PM   #14 (permalink)
 
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LOL at David.... that is because Bernie is very fat! lol
No dogs get free meals in my house they all work for food and have great food drive but if your dog is over weight the food drive drops and in Cree's case he is just not hungry enough to care for food. You build food drive by teaching them when they work then they eat. To get them hungry enough to do that you withhold food for 24 hours or so. It is different David when you are working with a dog for competition vs just a pet without food or toy drive you basically have no working dog.

Shana I hear what your saying, sound good
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