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Old 07-24-2011, 07:38 AM   #16 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by MissKitty View Post
From watching this video, I think your timing is off for a reward. In the span that it takes the person off screen to tell you to play, you have lost the window to reward in.
I would also not have him sitting before the reward, you are chaining too many actions together when he doesn't understand the first command.
By telling him out, without having a reliable out already, you may be inadvertently creating a command you don't want. I can't remember who said it, but 'don't name it 'til you love it'!
I can't tell you how many dog I have seen where 'out' means grip harder or shake the sleeve or to one it meant let go and re-direct onto the handlers leg and not let go.
There are quite a few routes I would try with a dog like Barca.
First find a low value object, something that doesn't have the emotional connection that he has to the sleeve. And I would not use the word 'Out' or ask for an out again until he understands the command. And I would not try to train an out when he is amped up with the decoy egging him on, that requires a lot of control and an understanding that your dog doesn't have right now.
So here is the first thing I try when teaching a dog that doesn't understand the out command.

Play tug.
Stop playing tug.
Wait.
Wait.
Wait.
For the slightest release, yell 'Yes!' (or whatever reward word you have) and begin tugging again.
Repeat.

Do not say any command, don't do anything. Just wait and let your body relax. You want low, low energy.
There are of course, other ways to get the job done but this one (if done correctly) seems to work well in most cases. If you want other ways though, I have 'em
This is when I first got him back, He was sold to a home in Canada and it did not work out and I got him back. He came to me with these issues and I really missed the opportunity to fix it when he was younger. I also think she created conflict with the toys and it did not help with him letting go. In the video I had not worked with him very much and yeah my timing was off, we were trying something new.
The problem is there is no low value item to Barca anything he can put him mouth on is a toy. You cannot wait for him to let go (we tried and at the 45 min mark we decided that was not going to work.), we did try what you described above and no success. He will not trade for another toy or for food, if you do not make him carry the toy he will ground it with his paws and fight drive kicks in. The problem with him is he is based in a lot of fight drive and if it was up to him he would tug and fight with me all day. This dog is really obsessed to the point where I am not sure I can do much with him. He has an extremely hard time sitting in the presence of a toy and has almost no self control. He really is an extraordinary dog and has the characteristics of what this breed was bred for. He is a game bred dog from proven lines (not his parents) and he was bred for the original function of a bulldog. That breeding with tons of fight drive and the desire to not let go or quit was bred into him and I am fighting genetics. While his brother is more biddable and going to be a great sports dog, Barca is 10 times harder.

In the video this is after we did several sessions that day with the e collar. Now he is on 127 on the e collar but does not flinch. This is months of trying different methods I think I have had him back for almost 6 months now.
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Old 08-18-2011, 07:06 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Don't you hate when someone else screws up a dog and you are left picking up the pieces?
Sucks

Honestly, I don't think you have an out problem. You have an obedience problem.
For a dog like him there is no 'quick fix' and zapping him with the e-collar on the highest setting is only going to make it worse.
If he was my dog, I would go back to the basics, no bitework. If you can't do OB around a sleeve on the ground and a sleeved decoy, you are not going to have enough control to teach him a reliable out. He needs to learn self control.
You need to build a relationship and give him a reason for working with you.
Just my thoughts.
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Old 08-19-2011, 12:04 AM   #18 (permalink)
 
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This is more bulldog than most people ever see, I am just giving you an example of a dog who cannot be asked or traded anything with his intensity. Self control is not something that applies to him and sitting next to a toy even 15 feet out is almost too much. I have tried everything you have suggested but this is an example of not all dogs will conform to one way of training and to be truly versatile you should have many tools in your tool box. Good luck with your girl, keep it up! Are you close to CA? are you going to the WPBTCA nationals? If so see you there, I hope to see many west coast people come out and support the nationals.
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Old 08-19-2011, 01:42 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I have not seen a Bulldog like that, but have worked with Mals with that kind of intensity (I know, different breed, different type of intensity/drive/personality quirks). One that was not able to go on the same field as a sleeve without literally loosing his marbles. He would not pay attention to any tug toy, flirt pole, treat, anything. If allowed to go for long enough (10+ seconds) he would redirect on the handler.
I literally took him to a place where he could be calm and level headed (getting out of the car and out of sight of the sleeve) and took baby steps closer. If your dog can't control himself well 15 feet from a tug toy. Go out 20 feet and once you get a small amount of what you are looking for release him to go tug for a reward. And move closer and closer.
I want all my dogs to be able to walk over a tug/sleeve in heel, recall over and lay down on. OB is listening to exactly what I say, regardless of what they want.
You are, of course, right. All dogs are individuals and we respond differently, not only to different techniques but to different people. Which is why I am always open to listening to how other people accomplished their goals.

Sadly, I am not in Cali
Stupid vet bills are tying me down to work, and I can't afford a plane ticket.
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