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Old 09-09-2011, 08:50 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Send Out

We have been practicing the send out a bit and Apollo is now starting to get it.
Not the final product yet, but you can see how it is taking shape


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Old 09-09-2011, 06:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
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That is great, how did you start the training for this command?
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Old 09-09-2011, 10:54 PM   #3 (permalink)
 
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This is the send out of for SCH right? Constructive criticism here...

He is downing at a certain place looks like a target you have set out for him. That is not what is required in Sch or even in UKC/AKC utility Obed that also has a send out. The dog must run till the judge signals you to down the dog then the dog must down. Teaching the dog to down at a certain spot defeats the purpose and will cause the flunk of the exercise. Even when training for the send out the down is the last thing you teach and then you do not do it all the time so the dog is not trying to anticipate it.
This is a video of a proper send out, you can see the dog does not anticipate the down and runs full speed.


For the other question on how to teach it, there are many methods to teach a send out and one way we do it is to use a hanging tree, it is a wire pole, very thin sticking out of the ground and holding a toy or ball. We send the dogs from a short distance to build speed and drive for the straight send out. And gradually back up, eventually it is at such a large distance like 50 yards plus the target cannot be seen and the dog has learned to go straight away from you with speed and drive. The down is the easy part, a dog who is well trained to down in drive has very little problem adding the down and again only just before the trail and not every time. There are a lot of ways to teach a send out and that is just a quick overview of how most members in our club train it. I got this years ago from a Seminar done by Bernhard Flinks and for me it seems to work the best. I recently traveled to Chicago and visited a club there and trained with them and I was surprised to see they used the same methods. Bernhard has not done many seminars in the US but is now gaining popularity.
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Old 09-09-2011, 10:59 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Here is the Utility send out in AKC/UKC with directed jumping. Just to show the dog goes away (with more control and less speed than in sch) and twists around to sit only on command. If a dog spins before the command major points are deducted and possibly flunking the exercise. In both these sports it is taught to sit or down on voice command only not at a targeted spot.

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Old 09-10-2011, 06:58 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by performanceknls View Post
This is the send out of for SCH right? Constructive criticism here...

He is downing at a certain place looks like a target you have set out for him. That is not what is required in Sch or even in UKC/AKC utility Obed that also has a send out. The dog must run till the judge signals you to down the dog then the dog must down. Teaching the dog to down at a certain spot defeats the purpose and will cause the flunk of the exercise. Even when training for the send out the down is the last thing you teach and then you do not do it all the time so the dog is not trying to anticipate it.
This is a video of a proper send out, you can see the dog does not anticipate the down and runs full speed.

Vorous - Slam dunk send out - Schutzhund Obedience - YouTube

For the other question on how to teach it, there are many methods to teach a send out and one way we do it is to use a hanging tree, it is a wire pole, very thin sticking out of the ground and holding a toy or ball. We send the dogs from a short distance to build speed and drive for the straight send out. And gradually back up, eventually it is at such a large distance like 50 yards plus the target cannot be seen and the dog has learned to go straight away from you with speed and drive. The down is the easy part, a dog who is well trained to down in drive has very little problem adding the down and again only just before the trail and not every time. There are a lot of ways to teach a send out and that is just a quick overview of how most members in our club train it. I got this years ago from a Seminar done by Bernhard Flinks and for me it seems to work the best. I recently traveled to Chicago and visited a club there and trained with them and I was surprised to see they used the same methods. Bernhard has not done many seminars in the US but is now gaining popularity.

That will not work for my dog, but thank you for the suggestion! My trainer and I talked about it, tried to figure out the best way to train the send out and decided to 'create' this method using a target.
For all the other dogs I have worked with or seen in Sch, the send out with a toy on a stick has been used.
We may flunk the exercise, depends on the judge. But it is 10 points and we will just have to make it up in other areas

This is my favorite send out (at 2:04)

Last edited by MissKitty; 09-10-2011 at 07:24 AM.
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Old 09-10-2011, 02:06 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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As long as you're aware of the points being deducted from an automatic down. There are many ways to teach a send out even with a lower drive dog. I see it done all the time in Utility so I am sure you can find a better alternative that would work. Sending a dog to a point and having them down on their own defeats the purpose of a send out.

edit to add that is how it should look, in the video
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Old 09-10-2011, 06:55 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I'd love to hear your ideas, unfortunately I don't think any of them will work for Apollo. He has drive to send out quickly and get a toy but I can't get him to down after he gets the toy.
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:33 AM   #8 (permalink)
 
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The down should be done separate and it should help with those issues. I would not add the down so the dog does not anticipate it until right before a show and when you are going to down him do not have the toy out there. If it is just a problem of him not wanting to down with the toy this is what I would suggest. BTW I would have a hard time too if a toy was out there with my bean head males.

The send out should be broken into parts and not done all at once.

Work on sending the dog in a straight line to the toy. Start close and build drive and over a few weeks move to larger distances. You also want to target the end of the field so they do not get use to looking for the toy in the middle of the field.

Separately work your downs. I do a lot of flat work with moving downs so my dogs get use to moving away and downing. You need a solid proofed down at a distance to start this. What we do is a game with food like lower drive food like kibble. I sit or stand and toss food about 8 feet away and when my dog is moving away I give a down command. If you need to you can wait for your dog to eat the kibble then give the down. Then toss food in the other direction so they are moving away from you again and repeat. Once your dog gets good moving away from you and downing try downing them before he gets to the cookie. At some point you have to be able to tell your dog he has to do what you want when you want and no blow you off. I would put him on leash and pop it if he did not down right away but I think you said you do not like to correct so as an alternative you would put a long line on the dog and when you say down just stop the line. You did not pop the dog just stopped them from getting the food since you gave them a command and they blew you off. Give the command again once he is stopped and when he goes down praise him and tell him to get the cookie. He will learn real quick if he wants that treat he needs to listen to your commands.

Once you can get a down at a good distance with him moving away, then you can try to add the down. The whole point of tossing the cookies from you is to get him to move away and you can start increasing the distance as he gets better.

Now lets say you are ready to test it together. This time do not have to toy out there but go through the same motions as you do when you have the toy. I started by putting the toy out there so the dog could see me, drag the dog back and then send. As they understand the command and the hand signal then I heel them out with the toy in my pocket and drop the toy and heel way and the dog does not see me put the toy out. (if you are using a tree have someone hang it for you) Then I go several paces turn and send the dog so they understand my command for the send out. When you can send then at a good distance and they understand to run straight out and expect the toy every time, then you are ready to add the down. This time go through your same ritual but do not drop the toy. Send your dog and when you feel it's time down him. If your dog downs, great! If not you need to work the down with drive more away from the field. If you do get a nice down praise and throw the toy to your dog and play. If your dog is now good with the downs at a distance make sure not to put this together all the time just occasionally put the down with it. If your dog did it correctly then I would set it up again with the toy and let him run to get it.
There are many ways to train the send out and this is what I have done and several members of our club do this as well.

Because he blows you off for the toy it a training issue with having him do what you want when you want. If it was my dog I would just correct once or twice and be done with it but if you do not want to correct it will take longer to teach him no to blow you off. That part I can't give any advice on, I have no problem correcting them after I know they have a clear understanding of what I want.

I would try the downing after kibble, I bet that will help a lot! I also do self control games with Siren and her 18 months old sons are just now starting to do the same. I will get the flirt pole out and after I know they know what doesn't means and are pretty solid I will have them chase the flirt pole and then randomly down them, as so as they drop the game can continue. The faster you drop the faster you can go back to chasing the flirt pole.

These are things I would try, after all you want to minimize point loss as much as you can. Teaching the down is not that hard if you break it into baby steps.

This is just a suggestion of course but I had problems with Siren downing like that too and this is how we fixed it. My utility trainer is the one who suggested tossing cookies and working the down like that and it worked great.
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Old 10-10-2011, 09:26 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Very helpful, Lisa! I think putting Indie on a lead and having her down before she gets the kibble is the best method I've yet read to get the send out.
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:34 PM   #10 (permalink)
 
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It helps build self control then release to the cookie. Ideally if you are teaching the send out for Schutzhund you would use a toy in a hanging tree or on the ground and start sending just from a few feet a way building drive then work your way back.
We call them a hanging tree but they can be called a ball tree
Ball Tree, Schutzhund Ball Tree
Basically I make my own, it is a post in the ground and you want it fine not big and bulky. I use a bent metal rod and stick it in the ground so it looks like an upside down L, then I have a clothes pin at the end holding my toy like a ball on a rope or tug toy. Then show the dog it hanging and make it swing if that helps the dog see it, hold the dog by the flat collar and get them in drive for the toy and pull them back a few feet then release them to get the toy. I give my send word at this point a long with my hand signal. I do this several times then wait till the next session and gradually move further and further away. After you dog knows the word the you can start not showing them the toy and sending them at a short distance. The toy is always there until the trial so they send out with drive. Right before the trial you have already worked on a great down with drive then you can add it in with the send out. If your dog is ball crazy you can take the toy away and when the dog downs throw the toy to the dog. This is just an over view it gets a little more involved than that but you get the idea
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