[Elvisfink]

Head:
-Too narrow muzzle
-Lacking Significant Cheek

Body:
-Long Neck lacking Tapering
-Turned Out Fronts
-Excessive Tuck
-Roach Back (could possible be the photo)
-Long Tail
-Turned in Hocks (might be the photos)

Overall Impression: Lacking a bit of substance. Small standard, I would probably attempt to add some weight and continue to condition the dog and then take some new photos for re-evaluation.

Ok so what are you judging this dog to?
Ambully?
Classic?
Pocket Pit?
Extreme BUlly?
Shorty Bull?
Xl Bully?
Biggest Chest?
Extreme Bully?
Those are listed classes at upcomeing AmBully event posted here on GP.com.
What the hell is your standard? You've regurgitated most of the AKC American Staffordshire Terrier standard in your response to the dog posted, but come on. Really WHAT IS THE STANDARD FOR A BULLY? Is it like a Poodle where there are multiple classes? Standard, Medium, Miniature and toy? I'm not trying to be a **** I'm just uneducated to the standard or multiple standards of a Bully. Educate me! By the way I think MachO's dog rocks for a Bully! Show's what the hell I know about a Bully!

 

[pitbullmamanatl]

Ok so what are you judging this dog to?
Ambully?
Classic?
Pocket Pit?
Extreme BUlly?
Shorty Bull?
Xl Bully?
Biggest Chest?
Extreme Bully?
Those are listed classes at upcomeing AmBully event posted here on GP.com.
What the hell is your standard? You've regurgitated most of the AKC American Staffordshire Terrier standard in your response to the dog posted, but come on. Really WHAT IS THE STANDARD FOR A BULLY? Is it like a Poodle where there are multiple classes? Standard, Medium, Miniature and toy? I'm not trying to be a **** I'm just uneducated to the standard or multiple standards of a Bully. Educate me! By the way I think MachO's dog rocks for a Bully! Show's what the hell I know about a Bully!

Doug, each class adheres to the Standard Class written standard with some amendments.
They are broken down as follows and the classes are determined by height:

• Standard Class- Click the link to read the standard as it is too long to post in this thread. That is the standard every class follows.

• Pocket- This is an amendment to the basic standard which a Pocket Bully is determined by its adult height. Males under 17″ at the withers. Females under 16″ at the withers.

• XL- Males over 20″ at the withers.Females over 19″ at the withers.

• Extreme- Extreme Bully is determined by its body structure and build.Both sex dogs with heavier body frames and more overall body mass.

• Classic- Classic dog is determined by its body structure and build. Both sex dogs with lighter body frames and less overall body mass.
  • 
    

 

[Elvisfink]

Thanks’ Lauren. This is my first post in Bullies 101 as you know I'm an ADBA kind of guy. It’s also the first time someone has explained to me that there are multiple standards to a Bully. Your post brings me back to one of my original questions. What standard is LoudMouf holding MachO’s dog to? Most of what he stated was directly from the AKC AmStaff standard. Did the ABKC just copy the AKC standard and change a few words or did they write their own standard for they own unique breed or breeds? Within these multiple standards is there a written standard to each class that breeders are breeding to or is it just a free for all. Basically is there a governing standard that people are being judged by in each of the listed classes? I know when I go to an ADBA event there are dog being shown form 30Lbs up to 60lbs, but they are all being judge or held to ONE standard. How does someone getting into Bullies know what class their dog falls into? As I stated before Poodles have multiple classes, just like Schnauzers but when someone is looking to buy a Poodle or a Schnauzer in a particular class it's well defined by the AKC what they are getting and showing. How does someone buying a Bully know what class they are buy or going to show into? It just seems to me that it's out of control and that the dogs appearances are being dictated by the breeder and not by a governing body.

 

[Sadie]

Also for the classic bully the standard is very vague lighter body frame compared to what ? Or is there more to this standard written elsewhere?



Classic
This is an amendment to the basic standard which a*Classic*dog is determined by its body structure and build. Both sex dogs with lighter body frames and less overall body mass.

 

[pitbullmamanatl]

Thanks' Lauren. This is my first post in Bullies 101 as you know I'm an ADBA kind of guy. It's also the first time someone has explained to me that there are multiple standards to a Bully. Your post brings me back to one of my original questions. What standard is LoudMouf holding MachO's dog to? Most of what he stated was directly from the AKC AmStaff standard. Did the ABKC just copy the AKC standard and change a few words or did they write their own standard for they own unique breed or breeds? Within these multiple standards is there a written standard to each class that breeders are breeding to or is it just a free for all. Basically is there a governing standard that people are being judged by in each of the listed classes? I know when I go to an ADBA event there are dog being shown form 30Lbs up to 60lbs, but they are all being judge or held to ONE standard. How does someone getting into Bullies know what class their dog falls into? As I stated before Poodles have multiple classes, just like Schnauzers but when someone is looking to buy a Poodle or a Schnauzer in a particular class it's well defined what they are getting and showing. How does someone buying a Bully know what class they are buy or going to show into?

I will answer these questions as to the best of my ability, but hopefully Devin or Manny will be able to clarify a few things.

All dogs are judged according to the written standard and their age is taken into consideration and to the written standard to that variety. For example, pocket class must meet the written standard and must meet the height requirement. As for the Classic class they are judged according to the standard bully and along the same lines as the old school UKC.

 

[Sadie]

So is there a class or such a thing as a xxl bully? I don't see a standard for that class it seems only the standard class is well defined.

 

[Elvisfink]

Also for the classic bully the standard is very vague lighter body frame compared to what ? Or is there more to this standard written elsewhere?

The photos that Lauren posted (Thank you very much) it appears that the Classic is just an overload AST by another color. The other categories appear to mixed breeds. WAIT!!! DON'T GET PISSED!!! They are what they are and if you truly are breeding to a set standard in each individual class they will eventually become uniformed in appeared. That is if the breeders are breeding to a written standard that all other breeder of that specific breed are breeding to. Again what are Bully breeders breeding to? Are they just tying two dogs together because they look cool and what they get is what they define as individual classes such ad Classic, XL, Shorty, Extreme or whatever? In other words are the breeding defining the classes or is the standard defining the classes? Thanks for the answers so far Lauren!

 

[Sadie]

Doug that's what I thought too about the classics I dunno I'm still confused because I see dogs like Holly's who are classic bullies like stack ukc style and then I see a dog like opha Mae hope I said it right that looks like an am staff with more bulk to it but is by the Abkc classic standard also considered a classic bully .....So I don't know I see so many variations it's so hard to say what's what. And the standard for most of the classes are so vague with the exception of the standard class. I am like you trying to understand the standard for each type or variation if you will and what these guys are breeding to standard wise. I guess maybe the xxl's might fall under extreme I dunno.

 

[pitbullmamanatl]

There is no XXL class. Only the classes that I listed above. People often confuse extreme with XXL I guess, but there is no XXL class.

 

[Sadie]

So breeders who advertise the xxl bullies are not really breeding to a standard class because there is none for the xxl? Is that really a type of bully the xxl that you see advertised or is it a byb invented thing to make something sound special? I actually thought they existed because I see them sold online as xxl bullies.

 

[pitbullmamanatl]

So breeders who advertise the xxl bullies are not really breeding to a standard class because there is none for the xxl? Is that really a type of bully the xxl that you see advertised or is it a byb invented thing to make something sound special? I actually thought they existed because I see them sold online as xxl bullies.

If you see advertisements for XXL Bullies you can bet they are some BYB who have no idea what the ABKC standard is and sure as heck are not breeding to it. Ethical Bully Breeders know what class of dogs they have and believe in breeding to the standard as well as striving to produce clean, correct, conform bullies. Most of what you see on the Internet is probably garbage with no intent to get in the show ring. Google is not going to show you conformational dogs- you must attend a show and see for yourself what is out there.

 

[Sadie]

Ok thanks for clearing that up I actually thought xxl bullies existed based on what I have seen advertised.

 

[Elvisfink]

There is no XXL class. Only the classes that I listed above. People often confuse extreme with XXL I guess, but there is no XXL class.

See I learned something new tonight! Thanks Lauren! I didn't know there wasn't an XXL class of Bullies. I'm with Tara I see them advertized all over the internet and I've seen people on this forum referring to their pups coming from XXL lineage. I'd be curious to see how Kennels are looked upon in the Bully world that advertising their dog's as XXL when in actuality they're not breeding to any set standard. We'll save that for another thread.

 

[LoudMouf]

I am going to try my best to explain the variety standards for you the best I can. If you have any questions please do not hesitate to ask. I am going to try and break it down and simplify it to the best of my abilities. This is a post I made on the ABKC board in regards to the Breed Varieties.

After listening to the comments by judges, I have also seen judges agrue the Pocket v. Small Dog, it made me really think of what the ABKC established the classes for?

Pocket: The pocket bully was originally formed at a time when medium size dogs were the norm and competing across the board. The pocket standard was originally written for people who wanted to compete with smaller, more compact dogs that still had bully characteristics. Marco Suarez was one of the first people I remember even having pocket bullies, esp. on a consistent sense.

The dogs had bully characteristics but were very different from the standard American Bullies. The ABKC added the pocket class for people with this style of dog. Every definition of "pocket" refers to as small. A pocket dog by it's own definition set forth by the ABKC, "proportioned to the body frame." Therefore the "breed type" for a pocket dog should be: small, compact, shortback, proportioned, and still have American Bully looks.

The judges have said that the pocket class don't have the substance they should have. Comments have been made by judges that the pocket dogs should still carry the mass of a standard. If that is the case, how is that proportioned? BTK used a good reference, a SBT is 14-16in. tall and carry a weight of 28 to 38 pounds. How can a dog that is 16in. tall and 70-80 pounds be even remotely considered proportioned?

Suarez Bulls Gargoyle II- 16", 65 pounds, 23"

That is a good example of what a pocket dog should look like? How could you compare a dog that size to a standard size dog? He looks like a mini (hence pocket) version of a standard American Bully. How can a judge say that he is lacking breed type for an American Bully? How can he just be a tiny dog?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Standard: The standard for the ABKC were dogs that were medium size that were between the sizes of 17-20in. dogs. They are still to be in proportioned, but allow for differences in weight as long as their weight doesn't effect their proportion, movement, or the overall breed type look. I remember seeing dogs like King Kamali, Heff, Tonka, Don Vitto, RN Gotti, etc.

It seems like this class is not made very clear: This is the foundation of the ABKC. The ABKC was created for the people who love their bullies and didn't have anywhere to go. The standard class will always be the backbone of the American Bully.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
XL: The XL class was originally formed for the guys with the large dogs. At the time, Ganghis Kon, RBG, Blueline, etc. were all bloodlines that were much taller and usually weighed more and were much greater in size. I understand the ABKC didn't want to exclude these people from the ABKC, therefore a standard was written that catered to them.

These dogs were still in proportion but just much larger dogs for people that still had bully characteristics but in breed type was definately different in aspects of size. The dogs tended to be taller and longer backs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classic: The Classic class was the original design of the American Bully. When Razors Edge was competing in the UKC, the idea was to create a dog carrying a slight bit more mass than the competing lines in the UKC/AKC. These dogs were a tipping more on the overdone side, but were not grossly overdone therefore they still were successful in competing in the UKC & AKC. As the American Bully gain popularity and began to cross with other bully lines, the dog progressed into a larger mass dog which has now become the standard for the Standard Class American Bully, and with the UKC rewriting their breed standard in 2009 it left these previous competing UKC/AKC dogs no avenue to compete in. If they were to be shown under a current UKC judge who is an APBT they would find these dogs lacking moderation and overdone.

UKC CH under the previous UKC Breed Standard

Current ABKC Classic CH

2009 UKC Top Ten Dog

The ABKC must support these dogs because it is the building blocks that helped the American Bully develop into the dog it is today.
================================================== =============

MY THOUGHTS: I realize the ABKC is trying everything possible to not alienate ANYONE because we want everyone to feel like they have home. The fact of the matter is the future of the American Bully lay in the hands of the ABKC and it's decisions will effect the dogs for years and years to come. Right now, the "people" are already pushing the enevlope. In every registry in the world, once the standard for a breed is written, the breeders strive to produce that standard. In the ABKC, the breeders are NOT breeding to produce the standard, breeders are breeding to out-do the next breeder and keep 'pushing the envelope.' The extreme class I understand was formed to give the people who like extreme dogs to compete in, but where do you draw the line as to what is TOO EXTREME? Also by opening up an extreme class you are now GLORIFING breeding dogs that are NOT proportioned or balanced. By some of the judges defintions: extreme is 'out of the ordinary'......Ordinary is what a standard is suppose to be for a breed!!!!! Breed type and standard is suppose to be ordinary. We are telling breeders and fanciers, it is a positive to breed dogs that are NOT to standard or 'ordinary'. At some point we have to tell people, "no you can't win", if you want to win; breed dogs that fit the standard. Breeders are following the trends set forth by the judges. I can make you a promise, the extreme class in three years from now the ABKC standard dogs will looks like the extreme class and the extreme class will have very bulldogish features. Shorter muzzles, even wider, even thicker, even heavier and the American Bully will be facing the same health issues as the bulldog breeds. We need to stop changing and "evolving" because if we don't then we aren't a breed. It is the duty of the registry through it's judge's selections of suitable breeding stock to pursue conformity to the ABKC varieties currently available. I believe the Extreme Class is not something that will encourage proper breeding practices.

*side note- I am a firm believer that the Extreme variety should be done away with. I have voiced these opinions to the ABKC on numerous occasions because the Extreme Class standard is noted as a Standard Class dog with "more body mass and heavier frames" on the same height parameters, but the only way to do that is to have a longer dog. The extreme class also has structural exemptions such as: The Extreme Class is allowed to have some looseness in skin, slightly higher rear, slightly turned out fronts & rears, some paddling and lumbering. In my personal opinion, it's absolutely wrong to accept these faults just to have an excessive overdone version of a Standard Class bully, because if the dog didn't have those faults the dog would just be a very impressive Standard Class bully. But since it is nearly impossible to carry the mass that some breeders are breeding for and keep the dog structurally sound, the ABKC has decided to excuse certain things to allow these dogs to compete. I think it is a horrible decision.

 

[Sadie]

Just out of curiosity I know the ABKC books are closing do you know roughly about how many dogs are currently registered with the ABKC?

 

[LoudMouf]

Ok so what are you judging this dog to?
Ambully?
Classic?
Pocket Pit?
Extreme BUlly?
Shorty Bull?
Xl Bully?
Biggest Chest?
Extreme Bully?
Those are listed classes at upcomeing AmBully event posted here on GP.com.
What the hell is your standard? You've regurgitated most of the AKC American Staffordshire Terrier standard in your response to the dog posted, but come on. Really WHAT IS THE STANDARD FOR A BULLY? Is it like a Poodle where there are multiple classes? Standard, Medium, Miniature and toy? I'm not trying to be a **** I'm just uneducated to the standard or multiple standards of a Bully. Educate me! By the way I think MachO's dog rocks for a Bully! Show's what the hell I know about a Bully!

Almost all ABKC events have ABKC sanctioned classes which include Standard, Pocket, XL, Extreme, and Classic. Those are the only sanctioned varieties. One of the most confusing things to outsiders is that alot of ABKC events, the show hosts offer "fun show" catergories which speciality classes by whoever the show host chooses to judge the class. Alot of times these show classes are for people who are interested in participating with their dogs that are not show quality animals therefore they offer insignificant superficial classes like "Biggest Head" and "Widest Chest" and "Most Freaky". Personally as an advocate for the ABKC, I believe these types of events are counter productive to the progression of the American Bully breed and give unknowledged owners a false sense of worth for subpar breeding quality dogs. This feeling is even more intensified when show hosts put cash prizes on these classes, because then breeders see a monetary gain by producing poorly bred animals rather than encouraging ethical responsible breeding practices.

Thus far, I have been reviewing every dog to the Classic class variety standard. I have yet to see a dog posted that I believe truly exhibits the Standard Class breed type, structure or conformation.

See I learned something new tonight! Thanks Lauren! I didn't know there wasn't an XXL class of Bullies. I'm with Tara I see them advertized all over the internet and I've seen people on this forum referring to their pups coming from XXL lineage. I'd be curious to see how Kennels are looked upon in the Bully world that advertising their dog's as XXL when in actuality they're not breeding to any set standard. We'll save that for another thread.

The XXL thing is nothing more than a sales ploy by kennels. Originally when the ABKC got established breeders were promoting their dogs as XL bullies, but in typical puppy mill fashion breeders couldn't just be satisifed having nice XL Bullies. They began promoting them as a step further as XXL bullies, and I have even seen breeders say XXXL bullies. The dogs are still ideally the same thing, breeders have just tried to make the dog's title sound more impressive to drive up puppy sales.

 

[LoudMouf]

Just out of curiosity I know the ABKC books are closing do you know roughly about how many dogs are currently registered with the ABKC?

To be honest, I am unaware of what the current numbers are. I would be more than happy to speak with the ABKC office and see if I can get a current registration count this coming week.

 

[Sadie]

Would just be interesting to know I can't remember when the ABKC first opened it's books but if I remember correctly i believe it was back 2004-2005? I know you guys have really grown over the last few years though. I like what you said about doing away with the extreme class I think you are right on the money with that. Until tonight I really thought there were xxl and xxxl bullies so because I didn't see a class for them I thought maybe they fell under the extreme class lol.

 

[LoudMouf]

Would just be interesting to know I can't remember when the ABKC first opened it's books but if I remember correctly i believe it was back 2004-2005? I know you guys have really grown over the last few years though. I like what you said about doing away with the extreme class I think you are right on the money with that. Until tonight I really thought there were xxl and xxxl bullies so because I didn't see a class for them I thought maybe they fell under the extreme class lol.

Actually the ABKC wasn't actually established until probably closer to 2006/2007. I think I remember the first ABKC events in late 06 early 07 but the idea had been in the works for a few years previous. I think it was a matter of figuring out the the logistics. You know, just like the APBT is plagued with irresponsible breeders the American Bully community faces the same issues. What makes the American Bully community worse is you get glorified heros such as Fabian (founder of "Remyline") who bought Remy Martin for $500 and a treadmill and has bred his dog to anyone willing to pay $2500 and has produced 1000 pups. Also it's hard for alot of people to put their ethics above the idea of making REAL money and not having to work to get it. Regardless of breed of choice, the idea of making $1000 plus for letting your dog breed with another is hard to turn down when the cash is in your face. Here's the best analogy I can think of, if you watched someone drop $1000 would you keep it or give it back? Alot of people would keep it knowing it is wrong and morally right to give it back.........same ethics apply to these people breeding subpar quality American Bullies for nothing more than the freaky factor to the highest bidder.

 

[Sadie]

Manny this is where I guess I get confused for dogs that are am bullies but don't fit the ABKC standard what should they do ? Could this dog be shown under the ukc current standards ?Because some bullies fall more on the apbt side but by there pedigrees they are not APBT'S so what do you recommend an owner to do in that situation ? I can easily spot an adba sytle dog but when dealing with the ukc and ABKC I guess I am confused as to where the line on conformation is drawn as to where the dog should be shown and have a better chance of competing and winning. I do however realize not all dogs are show quality animals.