Go Pitbull Forums banner
1 - 20 of 121 Posts

·
English Dogge Yard
Joined
·
3,441 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Now i know there has been a lot of talk lately on here with what an APBT means, the history and what we consider from dogmen and owners alike what makes an American Pit Bull Terrier.

I am making this thread in regards to present day and where we should take the breed into the future. What should breeders be breeding for? Continue the path for game? Show? Sport? Work?

Define your answer and explain why you feel what you do and if possible define your answer. (i.e if you believe we should breed for work, what kind of work? why do you feel this is the direction the breed should take?)

I believe as a whole breeders and owners need to come together and have the same path in mind. The chapter of dog fighting in this country is over in general, i believe we need to preserve this breed but at the same time is it logical to keep producing "game dogs" when the gameness can't even be proven or used for original intended purposes?

Discuss away!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,721 Posts
This is going to turn into another arguement rather quickly. We have beaten this topic to death. I will get my pop corn ready :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
460 Posts
Nice man, but it will never be that easy. There will always be dogmen underground. Its like I was saying in a post a min ago. Its almost like the TRUE pit will fade away. IF its not game - its not pit - goes on then what do you call it? The ridiculous overdone bullies is taking over. Eventually in the future kids will see they aint muscle bound pits. And if people show their pit and weight pull , search and rescue, hunt, etc. Its not what the breed was created for. So what is it and What happens to this breed (APBT)
 

·
English Dogge Yard
Joined
·
3,441 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Theres no harm done in a honest debate. If you don't feel like contributing you didn't really need to post.
It may be a heated discussion as i realize many have different opinions on the subject and are passionate about what they believe, which is good. But that shouldn't stop people from talking about it and making a good read for the novice.
 

·
K9 Pshrynk & Conciliare~
Joined
·
6,363 Posts
predator control, stock dogs.. keep it alive ! Bulldoggin' the fast pace world of cement, digital, and plastic cards is all an illusion, move to the country ;) go back far enough thats where we all come from ..

look at this police dogs.. LOL the one cop looks pleased!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
460 Posts
It may sound like a bi#$% thang, but I dont tihnk I could fight my dog to death. I love them too much to see them get hurt lol
 

·
h2o APBTs
Joined
·
842 Posts
It'll go back to how it used to be.. Good game dogs will be hard to come by, and the true APBT will go back underground. There will, however be a by product in the form of am. bullies and show APBTs.

If I had my way, I'd say we should breed for show/working dogs. Dogs that have a purpose besides looking pretty. BUT- there are as many reasons to breed as there are "breeders," so there will probably always be several different types of pit bulls.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
460 Posts
It'll go back to how it used to be.. Good game dogs will be hard to come by, and the true APBT will go back underground. There will, however be a by product in the form of am. bullies and show APBTs.

If I had my way, I'd say we should breed for show/working dogs. Dogs that have a purpose besides looking pretty. BUT- there are as many reasons to breed as there are "breeders," so there will probably always be several different types of pit bulls.
Yep, yep:goodpost:
 

·
English Dogge Yard
Joined
·
3,441 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
It'll go back to how it used to be.. Good game dogs will be hard to come by, and the true APBT will go back underground. There will, however be a by product in the form of am. bullies and show APBTs.

If I had my way, I'd say we should breed for show/working dogs. Dogs that have a purpose besides looking pretty. BUT- there are as many reasons to breed as there are "breeders," so there will probably always be several different types of pit bulls.
Which is unfortunate, a pure show dog in any form isn't a dog to me. All dogs should carry some purpose other than looking good and being a family dog.

How realistic do you guys think the breed can survive underground like the old days? With BSL spreading its slowly getting harder for the breeders producing real APBT's true to the roots so one has to question, is that really a feasible outcome?

There is also the question of if it is, what do owners and dogmen do with these dogs? Dog fighting can't stay underground forever without surfacing and many wont take that risk now in days.

If you believe it isn't possible, what do you think the closest out come would be? Owning a proven dog isn't really doing anything for the dog or the owner if the dog in their hands doesn't use that ability. Is there anything close enough, legal that can still keep the drive and all else?

If you lose the game aspect the breed may not be the same however there are still other characteristics of the apbt that differ too much from the AmStaff and Bullies.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,373 Posts
I will continue to bring in new dogs that are true to the original form and breed characteristics. When you start changing what the dogs were bred for you start changing the breed. Look at the AST's, they were APBT's but they started breeding for show and the dogs temperament and looks changed. If I wanted working AST's I would buy AST's, I want APBT's! I have working/sports dogs but I do not breed for sports. If I did that I would change the characteristics of the breed to suit better for sports like Schutzhund. If I was breeding Sch dogs I would have edgier dogs but again that gets away from what they were intended to do. When I breed I want high drive dog but one to stick to the original form not to suit what sports I am doing.

I know there is always talk about calling dogs gamebred but for lack of a better word i would rather have dogs with a gamebred pedigree vs a show pedigree because I have found they are more true to it's original form. I do not know if I want a "game" dog for sports and we all know a whole litter did not produce game dogs but that did not change the fact they were true APBT's. Barca one of my pups reminds me of what dogmen pre 1976 would be looking for and he gives me BIG problems working. It is hard to explain unless you see how different he is from my other dogs. However other pups from that litter were fantastic and true APBT's and they keep to it's original temperament and breed characteristics.

Long story short give me a good well bred bulldog and I'm happy! I do not think we need to change the breed as a whole that has already happened. We have petbulls and that is the majority of dogs that people own. They are not true to the breeds original form and are more suited for you average owner. The problem with true APBT's is the lack of responsible owners. Just like how I got Barca back from his first home. She could not handle a real bulldog after owning AST's, she thought she was ready but they are just a whole other animal than what she was use to.
 

·
English Dogge Yard
Joined
·
3,441 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I will continue to bring in new dogs that are true to the original form and breed characteristics. When you start changing what the dogs were bred for you start changing the breed. Look at the AST's, they were APBT's but they started breeding for show and the dogs temperament and looks changed. If I wanted working AST's I would buy AST's, I want APBT's! I have working/sports dogs but I do not breed for sports. If I did that I would change the characteristics of the breed to suit better for sports like Schutzhund. If I was breeding Sch dogs I would have edgier dogs but again that gets away from what they were intended to do. When I breed I want high drive dog but one to stick to the original form not to suit what sports I am doing.

I know there is always talk about calling dogs gamebred but for lack of a better word i would rather have dogs with a gamebred pedigree vs a show pedigree because I have found they are more true to it's original form. I do not know if I want a "game" dog for sports and we all know a whole litter did not produce game dogs but that did not change the fact they were true APBT's. Barca one of my pups reminds me of what dogmen pre 1976 would be looking for and he gives me BIG problems working. It is hard to explain unless you see how different he is from my other dogs. However other pups from that litter were fantastic and true APBT's and they keep to it's original temperament and breed characteristics.

Long story short give me a good well bred bulldog and I'm happy! I do not think we need to change the breed as a whole that has already happened. We have petbulls and that is the majority of dogs that people own. They are not true to the breeds original form and are more suited for you average owner. The problem with true APBT's is the lack of responsible owners. Just like how I got Barca back from his first home. She could not handle a real bulldog after owning AST's, she thought she was ready but they are just a whole other animal than what she was use to.
I can agree with this. :clap: :goodpost:

What should we do with the true APBT's though? I don't believe in breeders producing dogs for a purpose and that purpose not being accomplished. Does the real dogmen and real dogs just go underground while "petbulls" and other forms stay in the public eye? I could see the potential of disaster as its obvious the world of APBT's are not in the understanding and close circle as they used to be. However i could also see this being potentially the best suited out come without completely changing direction.

If the gameness is lost, theoretically, what would be next? Would we consider these dogs smaller ASTs? Or would a new breed with a new name stem off the appearance of these dogs?

My biggest problem with the underground vision, or fear rather, is BSL.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,373 Posts
That is what makes me sad is we are losing our breed in it;s original form. I can have a bunch of gamebred dogs but after 4 generations of breeding them together are they still gamebred? Even if I select the one original to it's form do they start to become just show or working dogs without proven dogs in the first 4 generations? Lots of questions and not answers just opinions.

Dogs will always be tested to a point I think whether it is underground or in other countries but I would hate to have to import the American Pit Bull Terrier from another country.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
460 Posts
I can agree with this. :clap: :goodpost:

If the gameness is lost, theoretically, what would be next? Would we consider these dogs smaller ASTs? Or would a new breed with a new name stem off the appearance of these dogs?

My biggest problem with the underground vision, or fear rather, is BSL.
what I been saying
 

·
K9 Pshrynk & Conciliare~
Joined
·
6,363 Posts
@ PK :goodpost: .. good sense as usual ;) Barca is just the kinda dogs Im used to ;) I wish I wasnt having trying times last year, have a feeling me and one of that brood would be like peas and carrots.. LOL
 

·
K9 Pshrynk & Conciliare~
Joined
·
6,363 Posts
what I been saying
If you see what some are saying .. its all in the beholder..

what are you doing the blood line? Keeping it pure or scatterbreeding it out??

For alot of us the pure stuff is right next door, or down the road on the left, :woof: there is no question if game is lost for a good deal of APBT owners cause we already have the real deal and know by proof and error that the working stock is the best dog mentally and physically.

SHOW dogs should be those elite working dogs with superb looks too! .. I love to see those dogs with both titles of the early days .. ewwwweeeee... like stratton said.. back then ya didnt have an issue with it as the dogs were bred pure and culled often.The human aggressive dogs were the GSDs, Rotties, Dobies, G.Snzr, even St Benards were known for guard dog skills back then while the lil bulldogs aka APBTs would go home with anybody pleased as a 5wk puppy LOL Hell most of mine will but they will just as pleasingly work dog that big dog that thinks he wants some.. :pup:

So yeah true APBTs are not for everyone, I used to tell people to get a Bull Terrier instead, but now that the Bully stock is here I tell them to get either or.. unless ready for the long haul.. and breeders should be ready to keep every dog.. just good ethics but the populous does not have the the dogs in true form although a good portion of proven dogs in other countries originate with the same stock or out the same stock as the rest of us bulldog/APBT owners of dogs in true working form.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,167 Posts
I will continue to bring in new dogs that are true to the original form and breed characteristics. When you start changing what the dogs were bred for you start changing the breed. Look at the AST's, they were APBT's but they started breeding for show and the dogs temperament and looks changed. If I wanted working AST's I would buy AST's, I want APBT's! I have working/sports dogs but I do not breed for sports. If I did that I would change the characteristics of the breed to suit better for sports like Schutzhund. If I was breeding Sch dogs I would have edgier dogs but again that gets away from what they were intended to do. When I breed I want high drive dog but one to stick to the original form not to suit what sports I am doing.

I know there is always talk about calling dogs gamebred but for lack of a better word i would rather have dogs with a gamebred pedigree vs a show pedigree because I have found they are more true to it's original form. I do not know if I want a "game" dog for sports and we all know a whole litter did not produce game dogs but that did not change the fact they were true APBT's. Barca one of my pups reminds me of what dogmen pre 1976 would be looking for and he gives me BIG problems working. It is hard to explain unless you see how different he is from my other dogs. However other pups from that litter were fantastic and true APBT's and they keep to it's original temperament and breed characteristics.

Long story short give me a good well bred bulldog and I'm happy! I do not think we need to change the breed as a whole that has already happened. We have petbulls and that is the majority of dogs that people own. They are not true to the breeds original form and are more suited for you average owner. The problem with true APBT's is the lack of responsible owners. Just like how I got Barca back from his first home. She could not handle a real bulldog after owning AST's, she thought she was ready but they are just a whole other animal than what she was use to.
:goodpost: I think they should be worked in some form or other.Whether it be agility,wp,Sch,or hog hunting,etc.They have the drive and willingness to want to do it.I think all the same blood that's here should just keep being bred together to keep the lines pure and just breed for some other work for them.
 

·
English Dogge Yard
Joined
·
3,441 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
:goodpost: I think they should be worked in some form or other.Whether it be agility,wp,Sch,or hog hunting,etc.They have the drive and willingness to want to do it.I think all the same blood that's here should just keep being bred together to keep the lines pure and just breed for some other work for them.
So are you saying the gameness should be "left behind" this breed and focus more on breeding for agility and drive? Just trying to make sure i get what your going for :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,167 Posts
Not necessarily.If you have blood that stems off of game dogs and has been proven then by all means keep breeding that blood for it's intended purpose.But the blood that has only proven dogs back at least 5 generations,for example, and nothing newer has already had some of the gameness removed anyways.So why not just keep breeding this blood for new purposes or new work if you will since if you put it in a box it probably wouldn't fare too well anyways.
I hope that makes sense.Alot of times on here I know what I want to say but then have a hard time explaining it once it's time to put it down.:flush:
 

·
K9 Pshrynk & Conciliare~
Joined
·
6,363 Posts
gameness is half the dog... without it.. its just a dog easily dominated by other working dogs in their working form.. MIND you half the bandogs used real game bred dogs to cross with for drive including the Tosa and others.. IF people intentionally start breeding for other than game then the mentality of the dogs will become entirely unpredictable because thats half the reason of the test .. a sound mentality proven under pressure ;) I want a dog off that stuff, no curs allowed; it has a meaning in the mtns and plains just as it does in the []
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,167 Posts
see everything you're saying makes sense Stan.So as usual I think I meant something else.:hammer:Hold on.....I'm trying to think of how to put what I'm thinking .:mad::rofl:
 
1 - 20 of 121 Posts
Top