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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I listened last night and it was actually pretty interesting, some one sided comments but some very valuable information. (I know OTK's going to jump on this). But he made a comment last night about UKC dogs and ADBA dogs and how he wouldn't breed them.

What's you guys feeling on this? Is it a different dog? Why would or wouldn't cross bloodlines like that?

For me (since I posted I'll throw my 2 pennies in) the standards are different between the two in "look" (show only not WP). But I don't see any problem if you're trying to get a certain trait from one dog and pass it on or pull out a bad one. I know the standards in "look" are different I can't see the harm.

Another point that was made was would you breed a gameline against a Ambully line? Like Gotti to Jeep or Redboy...does that just ruin a dog?

Just looking for opinons! HAPPY HUMPDAY! :cheers:
 

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It was good from what I heard, I got off before it finished.
 

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I thought they said they wouldn't breed AKC and ADBA dogs. Maybe i'm wrong.
I thought Michelle said she WOULD breed a UKC to an ADBA dog because they could still be shown regardless
but if an AKC and an ADBA dog were bred, the pups couldn't compete in AKC so it wasn't a good idea?

maybe im just jacked up in the head :D
 

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There are a lot of double registered dogs. I know mostly of Matrix kennels dogs. They are double registered and conditioned to compete in UKC and ADBA. They have the first dual grand champion dog. Her name is Persephone.
 

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The M.F. Problem
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Naw! He was talking about breeding an ADBA dog, meaning a thin well conditioned APBT, to a GRCH AKC dog, meaning a well built Am Staff, and how HE wouldn't do something like that. This comment was made after Marty asked why people wanna breed bullies back to game dogs.
 

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Hey guys,

Thanks for listening!!

I personally believe in line breeding, and generally speaking my UKC dogs are from very different lines than most ADBA registered dogs. I have studied my particular dogs bloodlines and have become very confident in assessing drive, temperment, structural faults and strengths as well as heriditary diseases. When I select a dog from these lines I feel pretty confident that I know what I am getting. I believe and put more faith in linebred or inbred dogs than scatterbred.

Although many Many generations back Gaff will have some decent Hemphill Wilder stock I think that in type this would be a definite scatterbred litter if I incorporated into my dogs.

However, if I felt my dogs lacked drive or angulation I may be willing to use a tightly bred ADBA style dog that comes from a line that is strong in my dogs weak areas.

These 50/50 pups I would breed back to my line and hope to keep the pups that maintain my original lines strengths without losing the outcross breedings strengths as well. I certainly feel this is more of a gamble but I would do it if I could not find dogs in my line that could fix these faults.

I have met Persophone several times and she is one of my all time favorite dogs and Casey is a real cool dude. We showed against each other in UKC and competed in weight pull against each other, she is a supreme speciman IMO.

I like consistency when it comes to breeding and a lot of times people breed outside if a line to correct a problem when they can fix the faults by still linebreeding in some cases. Breeding most ADBA dogs to UKC show dogs I personally belive compromises consistency.

Once again thanks for listening to the show see you next week!!!

Hopefully!

I luk
 

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I didn't listen to the show, but here ya go...

...my UKC 'bred' dog is closer to his ADBA Champion than he is to his UKC Champion. IMO if you look at the two standards, they are different however a dog can fit between somewhere to where they would compete well in both venues.

Also, IMO, outcrossing looks to be a viable way to loosen up a pedigree that is going too tight and to play with different characteristics. However, there is always a gamble in doing an outcross that you will only get 'junk' out of the litter. To cite...I can't think of too many Lar-San outcrossings as of late that have turned out as spectacular as the Lar-San blood being used; maybe this is simply the choice in outcross, but it seems to be predominantely true.

Finally, I think many bully type breeders would be hard pressed to find a GOOD ADBA type breeder to work with in creating an outcross to increase the APBT characteristics in their bully. Could be wrong, but I sure as heck would not destroy a good APBT line, developed and corrected for MANY decades by crossing it out and dilluting as far as a bully type dog.

Just my thoughts...
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Finally, I think many bully type breeders would be hard pressed to find a GOOD ADBA type breeder to work with in creating an outcross to increase the APBT characteristics in their bully. Could be wrong, but I sure as heck would not destroy a good APBT line, developed and corrected for MANY decades by crossing it out and dilluting as far as a bully type dog.

Just my thoughts...
:goodpost:

Here we go! now this is where I wanted this thread to be directed. Why would taking a ADBA standard and outcrossing it to a bully be destroying a line? If you have a purpose and you are "experimenting" to get a certain trait or characteristic, why would that be considering destroying a line?
 

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Yeah, I kept hearing UKC dog over and over and never understood what they meant by that. Reason being is that an ADBA dog can easily be registered with the UKC and shown and win in conformation. All it needs is a few extra pounds than when it showed in the ADBA. So its the same dog, just heavier. Now if they meant Staff by UKC dog then I understand that!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
And i think he was referring to "UKC DOG" as the Staffy look. I believe that's he's meaning that because the last few UKC Ch dogs have been that Staffy look, where the slim game line APBT has been pushed aside.
 

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Actually I know people who compete in both, they may achieve a CH title fairly easily, but few achieve GRCH titles. I am not stating one is better than the other, but IMHO when one breeds they need to be breeding to accomplish a certian goal.

Now we are speaking in generalizations and every one knows I hate speaking in terms of absolutes. I feel the UKC show lines are predominately AKC/UKC crossess at least back about 5-8 generations. The breeders were trying to achieve a certain style or look. I believe a lot of these goals were met in Larum and Gaff stock. Now if you were to look at the structure of the top ten dogs in both registries you would see a difference, not just in weight but in structure to a certian extent.

Last night when I spoke about UKC dogs I am speaking on the majority not the minority. Now with the UKC making a consertive effort to reduce size and mass in the show ring, I actually believe we will see more breeders trying to outcross into ADBA stock.

How does this ruin a line? Ruin is a strong word, that's shy I used losing consistency, breeders should be breeding for a specific goal, to produce sound healthy stock that best matches the standard. Breeding to achieve this takes time and obtaining vast amounts of knowledge in regards to pedigrees and more importantly actually studying the digs in the pedigrees. Random outctosses to dogs that do not even match in TYPE, to some would be a waste. Unless one is trying to find out exactly what their dog throws when bred the 3 seperate ways (inbred, linebred, and outctossed).

Long story short if you ask 10 different breeders what they would do yo preserve a line you may get 10 different answers. I think it would be hard to find a true GB breeder who would want to see one of their dogs bred to a UKC show dog. There are exceptions of course.

One more note, when incorporating outcrosses, I would outcross to a line that best matches mine in structure, when trying to correct a weakness. Isn't dogs have great fronts for instance and what I'm trying to correct is tail set I would use a line that has a good tailset , but would not if the line was known to have horrible fronts. Educated breeding practices or rarely used and the majority of people look only at dog A&B and not dog 1-10 that made them. There are no quick fixes, and I like to stick to established lines and respect the integrity of those lines the best I can.

Yes you can breed to tight and will have to outcross at a certain point, that outcross has to be carefully researched and IMHO will work best if the outcross is the breeding of two tightly bred dogs from seperate lines.

So if one went ADBA to UKC I would want sire and dam to both be tightly bred on each side. I would then be very selective as to what these offspring were bred to if ever, to not only protect the integrity of my line but the ADBA breeders line as well.

I
 

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the term ukc dog means a typical ukc type dog,that wins or succeeds in the ukc,a dog with a big head,a squat dog,a exotic colored dog,of course there not all of exotic color,but the strange colored ones seem to do better than the standard colored ones in the ukc,jmo[and yes i realize that colors like champaign,and what ever are in the standard].
Would i breed a game dog to a bully,no,i dont breed but if i did no i wouldn't.Game dogs are a rare breed,why wast the blood?
Why take a performance breed and cross it into a pet dog?
When the game line may very well benefit from a breeding why go to a bully and use the blood to create a cross?
And for god sakes,adding a bully to a standard game dog will definitely destroy it in type,function and ability,hell it may even create a unstable temperament or a manbiter as well if done with out proper regard seeing as how it is basically no different from adding a game dog to a different bully breed.
A bully may very well benifit from adding game blood,but no way is there any benifit in the other dirrection,and again,there is the chance that either way youll get dogs with a unstable temperment.
 

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the term ukc dog means a typical ukc type dog,that wins or succeeds in the ukc,a dog with a big head,a squat dog,a exotic colored dog,.
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Im not really seeing any short squat CH or even GRCH in the UKC. Well atleast not recently. And I don't think their are neccesarily big in generaly, just larger than that of the ADBA dogs idk more of a show piece.
 

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ya,not squat like a bully,but a bobble head type dog like pure gaff stuff,alot of staff blood,pitterstaff stuff,its alot diffrent from alot of the adba stuff,even though if a gaff dog looks like a game dog they can do well in the adba as well.im not a show dog person so it isnt really my bag.ive been to a handful of shows in my life,maybe 6 total.
 

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how do you tune into the show? Is it on the computer or on the radio>>> I've asked this questions before but obviously still have questions...
 

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BTK and Cane...thank you for your matching opinions. I do not see a benefit to cross from one 'style' dog to another 'style' dog to provide an outcross. Just as BTK said...ruin is a strong word, however a severe outcross such as we are talking about will cause a destruction of type, structure, temperament and genetics.
 

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well severe is a hard word as well,and adding bully blood too a game dog will ruin the game blood for sure,but everyone knows that,it could possably benifit the bully,especialy if the game dog was a big stucturally bully/ish game dog,like a mayday or something,at 75 pounds he would have added alot while comprimising very little in size[girth,head,etc.]
 

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how do you tune into the show? Is it on the computer or on the radio>>> I've asked this questions before but obviously still have questions...
Goto AMERICANBULLYWORLD.COM
Create a profile...
On the home page near the bottom you will find the audio player...
You can tune in every Tuesday night for the new show...
Or go by there anytime and you can listen to the replays...
Check out the past shows...alot of cool conversations going on!
But the live show is the best because you can listen and join the chat room so you can interact with the radio hosts and other listeners!

Hope this helps a little bit...

Have a good Friday everyone!
 
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