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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
:cool:In my reading i have come across a term in many reputable books and it is "catchweight" in some books it is described as a big dog or as a larger dog whose size is used for catching animals. So if the entire goal of breeding pitbulls is to stay true to there roots which was originally the use of them as catch and hold dogs. Then why is that automatically a "big dog" or one generally over 80 lbs. is said to conform to "bully style"? If we go back in history we see that noble men of england would not allow the peasents to own large hounds because these were most certainly used for poaching on the nobles land. So in turn the peasents bred smaller pit bulldogs so as to fly under the radar. Some say there were bred with terriers and this is where some confusion arises with the name. Later on in history baiting of bulls was made illegal and pit dogs were turned on each other either to increase profits(less food) or to hide there illegal activity once again pit bulldogs were bred to be small in stature. Following with this trend early american dog men stayed with this "fad" and bred dogs usually weighing less than 70 lbs. Previously to this the bull and bear baiting dogs were of large size i havnt found a specific weight most likely because nobody cared exactly how many pounds there dog weighed. So in this day and age where only a very small percentage of dogs in the U.S. are used for illegal fighting purposes why are we breeding to a standard set by these "fighting style" pit bulldogs? Certainly a large muscular pit bulldog that conforms in all areas of the breed including temperment is a fine example of a modern pitbull. Able to be shown, able to weight pull, able to work as a catch dog on farm and in hunting. You certainly cannot in good conscience say this is a "bully style" dog for you would be casting down your dogs own roots. Perhaps big and bully should not go hand in hand any longer. :cool:

So i guess my question is shouldnt a Pit Bulldog be judged by his ability to work and not by his size? after all thats his sole purpose.
Shouldnt a bully be judged by his ability to work also along with his genetics? (due to improper breeding practices and outcrossing to other breeds which appears to be rampant in the bully community i think that should be included) :cool:
 

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Courage
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It's because the big dogs you are referring to were not APBTs. The epitome of the APBT is a box bred pit dog, not a bullbaiting dog. A "catchweight" dog is still a functional athlete, while a bully is usually not. But neither version is a pit dog. That's why a good breeder lets form follow function. The time period in which the APBT has been used in the box defines what the APBT is. Not a century ago when the dogs were not yet perfected. Not today when most let the registries define the dog.
 
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Courage
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Well, I'm no expert but I'd imagine the same as it's always had.
 

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dogs are fought all over the world weather legal or not,legality of dog fighting will not stop dog fight,as for there not being large dogs in the U.K during the apbts inception is incorrect also,the was the "Game keepers night dog",and english mastiff and a whole host of large dogs,fyi.
 

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What about dogs from the Alligator bloodline? These are larger than standard APBTs that are commonly advertised as "catchweight". I feel since they were used in the box, and successful, no one really cares about the label "catchweight". It also seems that any APBT that consistently produces larger dogs carries the stigma of being mixed, but there's not always proof to statement. I've heard this about the Alligator and Mayday stuff. I personally prefer a dog withing standards, but as long as they work hard...I really dont care about the weight.

BTW GOOD POST DAN'SGRIZZ..I AGREE W/ MOST OF WHAT YOU SAID!!!
 

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Well, one thing I might point out is that "catchweight" was generally a dog that was in the 60s or over, not a dog over 80 lbs as said in the original post. Big difference there. Not to mention the occasional large APBT coming from regular-sized parents is a far cry from an entire line bred to simply be big, not to perform.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Cane76 : "as for there not being large dogs in the U.K during the apbts inception is incorrect also,the was the "Game keepers night dog",and english mastiff and a whole host of large dogs,fyi."

Cane in response i was referring to peasants vs. nobles. Owning large hounds was illegal by the peasants because they were not land owners. Hunting (poaching) on a nobles land was illegal so large hounds that were only used for hunting purposes were usually killed if owned by a peasant. Hence the decrease in size of good hunting hounds i.e. pit bulldogs.

buzhunter : "It's because the big dogs you are referring to were not APBTs. The epitome of the APBT is a box bred pit dog, not a bullbaiting dog."

Buzhunter response : The dogs i refer to i believe to be the direct descendents of the "apbt" just because someone who registers a dog with the name american infront of it and terrier behind it doesnt it make it either of those. Pitbulls first task in history was not to fight eachother. Some of the paintings of the original dogs of war used in roman times look like a modern day Pit bull dog. There first tasks in histroy were those of courage and mental fortitude. Not simply pitting one dog against another. I am talking over hundreds and hundreds of years here not jsut the original irish and english dogs imported by immigrants but also the dogs of england, ireland, spain and italy. Working dogs used for herding, carting, catching along with protection of there masters and a companion.

bahamutt99 : "Well, one thing I might point out is that "catchweight" was generally a dog that was in the 60s or over, not a dog over 80 lbs as said in the original post. Big difference there. Not to mention the occasional large APBT coming from regular-sized parents is a far cry from an entire line bred to simply be big, not to perform."

Response: I would beg to differ, many dogs are sold as the ideal pitbull weighing 60 lbs. This at "pit weight" would be low 50's. That is by no means a catch weight dog. Although ive seen some small jeep blood wrestle a 350lb pig into its corral no problem. I think with a bull it wouldnt have done so well. Its weight was 50 lbs. and female. What i speak of also is a line bred to be a large performance dog. The audacity to say that a dog can be large and perform? Just insane i know but great danes were originally used as boar hounds. Since then they have betrayed there mastiff/molossus roots and gone strictly to the show dog category and are not much of a working dog. You cant say that those distant relatives of the great dane sacrificed size for ability. Boars for heavens sake are quite a worthy adversary!

I would just like to see the pit bulldog become more widely accepted as a working dog and conform to working dog standards. there name often portrays them as one dimensional. i have no problem with pit men or pit dogs thats there business. But to say that a dog who conforms to all of the apbt standards and is pure bred as they get is not a pit bulldog (courageous, loyal, strong beyond its look, medium build ...extra medium in this case lol... with a fine working drive of course) is silly. outwaying the set standard consistently in breeding by 20 lbs to complete its work better doesnt sounds nearly as bad as say breeding only red nose dogs or only blue nose dogs together. Thanks for all the comments and conversation people. Im not trying to be argumentative only trying to have a spirited debate and in so doing gain knowledge from the well informed readers of this forum.
 

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Response: I would beg to differ, many dogs are sold as the ideal pitbull weighing 60 lbs. This at "pit weight" would be low 50's. That is by no means a catch weight dog.
60 is the maximum for a male, and oversized for a female. A dog 60s and over would be catchweight. Consider for a moment who is selling these "ideal pitbulls" at that weight. That terminology in and of itself suggests a peddling scheme, and I would doubt the sincerity of the seller.

ETA: I'm going to poll a board that would know more than I would as to what weight is considered catchweight. I always heard 65 as the magic number.
 

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It's because the big dogs you are referring to were not APBTs. The epitome of the APBT is a box bred pit dog, not a bullbaiting dog. A "catchweight" dog is still a functional athlete, while a bully is usually not. But neither version is a pit dog. That's why a good breeder lets form follow function. The time period in which the APBT has been used in the box defines what the APBT is. Not a century ago when the dogs were not yet perfected. Not today when most let the registries define the dog.
Very well said, buz. The APBT was bred solely for the []. The dogs, dansgrizz, you were referring to were descendants of the APBT pre-crossed, let's not forget about the terrier used to bring that speed and endurance to the the table, or should I say [].
 

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Very well said, buz. The APBT was bred solely for the []. The dogs, dansgrizz, you were referring to were descendants of the APBT pre-crossed, let's not forget about the terrier used to bring that speed and endurance to the the table, or should I say [].
yeah..but the whole terrier aspect is also debated in some circles....some have long claimed that the apbt of today is not a mixture of terrier and bulldog as is commonly accepted as fact, but the lineal descendant of the actual early bulldog..some even make mention of descending from the brabanter and no terrier mix........
i agree with dansgrizz..just cause a dog may a be big does not always mean its mixed or bully.....it can be a big athletic apbt.....
 

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yeah..but the whole terrier aspect is also debated in some circles.....
i agree with dansgrizz..just cause a dog may a be big does not always mean its mixed or bully.....it can be a big athletic apbt.....
Yeah, I have heard the different speculations, but no doubt that a smaller and faster breed was used maybe even the pointer was used, whatever the mix, the concept is the same, to create or should I say produce, since man is not God, a breed that has speed and a nasty bite that would perform in the [] (where the true APBT was born).

I never said catchdogs were non functional, I was just stating known facts about the APBT, regardless of the weight. Hog catching is not the same as dog fighting so the goals of those breeders are different than those that breed for the [], that's all.

On another note, comparing catchdogs to bullies is ridiculous.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Madbood thanks for the input i agree of course a catchdog is not a bully but is a dog of catchweight considered a bully? I am interested to see what bahamutt has come up with in his poll for an ideal catchweight and of course what do those ideal dogs catch baha? Ill give you this one the "apbt" was bred for the []. On that note i dont agree with its name or the lineage described by madbood. I do think that the pit bulldog was just that a pit...bull dog. As far as the terrier reference some have speculated this name was used to mask there hunting prowess so peasents could hide there game dog from the nobles. The name terrier stuck and pit terriers soon became a common name for these dogs in ireland too. So as far as a "apbt" its only been known as a pit fighting dog but before that what was it? A WORKING DOG. i dont believe anyone in there right mind would take a dog with such tenacity and drive and cross it with a terrier. The pit bulldogs muscles and build are barely different from other dogs yet there will and stength is unmatched. Because of that extreme drive they can push themselves hardr and faster. Crossing with a terrier i think would diminish its game behavior and decrease its bite, after all its not the strength of the bite but its sheer will to not let go that makes our breed great. Once again thank you madbood bahamutt marine 1 cane 76 buzhunter and of course trutildeath great lookin boy man hes getting big. Thinking of doing any catchdog work with him?
 

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I think you have to identify and follow the progression of the breed. Origianlly what was this dog bred for? Bullbaiting, and catchwork yes and I would say they were larger dogs. When it became illegal the focus changed and it went to dog vs dog and the dogs got smaller due to breeding practices. At what point the APBT became the dog it is today is muddy but I dont think that the dogs working at catchweight were the same dogs as the APBT of today. I dont think they were bred the same and the goals were different. JMO, and to define what is catchweight you need a catch standard. Obviously heavier dogs in theory can hold more but I have seem some smaller dogs used as catch dogs as well.
 

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Courage
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So as far as a "apbt" its only been known as a pit fighting dog but before that what was it?
My answer would be that the APBT did not exist before the box. The pursuit of perfection in the box through selective breeding is what created the dog. As far as pure bulldog blood or terrier blood mixed in goes,I'm sure just about every "prototype" imagineable was put to the test. The most successful men and dogs set the bar and the standard for the breed.
 

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catch weight was 55 or 52 pounds i think,could be wrong but its close
also the pure bull dog linage is a hoax as this first generation cross proves.
In photo mind you,not words.
 

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I agree that terrier blood is present but it's just the opinion I've formed. That picture is worth a thousand words though. Any decendants we could trace back to him?
 

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dog was south african bred i believe.
Apbts have terrier at varying levels in my opinion with some having more and others much less or non at all,since they are the direct descendants of bulldogs of old who are descendants of ancient war mastiffs you'd have to believe every once and a while there will be a throw back to that,and the fact that 1 out of every 10,000 breeding's produces a giant in dogs and humans.
 
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