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Discussion Starter #1
I have seen some dogs that should be in standard but may lack a lil in girth so they show in classic yet they are huge in the classic class and then there are standard looking dogs that have a kinked tail or bad feet and they show in the extreme class but don't meet the standard yet they place b/c there is only 3 dogs in the class. How do u feel about a dog possibly becoming a champion in the extreme class that is standard all the way wit a kink. but champs out b/c the only other dog in the class looks the same but a lil worse, n now the dog is being promoted as this bad ass extreme male. I would jus like to hear a few ppl thoughts on this.
 

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It does seem ( as an outsider ) that judging is sometimes effectively being used as a marketing tool for breeders, instead of as an objective standard ( which I think would improve improve the breed)...lots of people say that dogs with faults champion, and have various explanations as to why.. and classes are not really well defined...but the breed is very young and evolving, so I guess that's to be expected. I hope that corrects itself both so conformational and health faults become more rare.
I've also heard apbt people complain that classics are being shown and champion as apbt's...
 

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This is the same in any venue. Look at AKC or UKC people will stack the ring with dogs who are not breed standard to give the best chance for another less than perfect dog to CH. Also judging no matter what venue, AKC, UKC, ADBA, or ABKC can get all political depending who you know. It should not be that way but that is how it is in most conformation shows. In UKC and AKC a judge can with hold placements and points if the dog does not fit the breed standard but the ADBA they cannot, I do not know about the ABKC. I have seen several times where they said the dog is not breed type and awarded no ribbon if the dog would get points by default if there was 3 or less dogs in a class. That is way it should be!
 

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As with any type of compitions it really isnt how good the dog/person maybe it is who do you know. This isnt the way it should be but it is the way it is. I think that if a judge were to award a dog that is out of standard they should not be allowed to judge again until they can clearly state what the standards for that breed is.

The more I see and hear about shows the more I believe they are not helping the breeds at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
It just sucks to see this going on I really want to become a judge for the ABKC so I have looked into handler classes and all. But I kinda want to wait to champ my boy out first so that if I do become a champ ppl dun say its cuz I'm a judge, and he is close so I am still in the air with it.
 

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To be a judge you should be a breeder of dogs who are to standard and have Ch's so you have enough experience in the breed to call your self a judge. Before I considered becoming an Agility judge I made sure I had multiple dogs competing at the highest level with also a least one Ch. It will just make you have more creditability and if you do judge do it based on the dog not who is holding the leash!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
To be a judge you should be a breeder of dogs who are to standard and have Ch's so you have enough experience in the breed to call your self a judge. Before I considered becoming an Agility judge I made sure I had multiple dogs competing at the highest level with also a least one Ch. It will just make you have more creditability and if you do judge do it based on the dog not who is holding the leash!
Those were my thoughts and that is exactly why I would want to judge, so that that the best dog wins not only the dog with the biggest fan base.
 

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I dont thnk you need to be a breeder to be a judge. I know a good look dog that fits the standard and I have never breed any dog. I think if you want to be a judge then you should do it regardless if you ever breed.
 

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how can you call yourself qualified to be a judge if you have not been in the breed for breed purposes where you are trying to better the breed? You can not have a great eye without living it, IMO and most reputable registries you have to have been a breeder with accomplishments to be a judge.
 

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I suppose the same way a designer can have a good eye for lines and movement. There already standards that are written these are the guidelines that one would use to judge the dog you do not have to breed to know if the dog fits the standard that is just reduntant. IMO
 

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IMO knowing the standard and actually being able to reproduce the standard in your own line of dogs is a bit different and takes much more exp and skill. Breeding animals is an art/science IMO ... a breeding is only as good as the man/woman behind it. With that being said I believe I have the ability to select a well bred animal out of the bunch but if you asked me to reproduce the standard I wouldn't know where to begin. I would have to consult with one of my colleagues who have been successfully breeding for years. I am not a breeder but I have an eye for beautiful animals that does not qualify me as judge or a good breeder. It would be very difficult though to judge 5 dogs who are all well within the standard finely tuned animals. It's always easy to pick out the bad ones but to stack the good ones up against one another and pick them apart is difficult.
 

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So in other words you think that every judge out there should only judge a breed that they themselves have successfully bred and raised and titled. I do believe there would be a shotage of judges or an onslot of dogs in the world.
 

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Yes I believe a conformation judge should not only have an eye for good structure and movement but should also be able to reproduce it themselves in their own line of dogs. Having real life experience makes all the difference in the world it gives you a better understanding/perspective at what your truly looking at.
 

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I see that as bogus. That particular judge may like a trait that is acceptable but to another not as desireable but fits in the standard. Every person has their own opinion as to what makes a beautiful dog and just because it fits the standard doesnt mean it is breedable either. Taht is why you need to do the health testing and know the linage of the dog before you breed but you do not need to know things in order to judge.

Another case of agree to disagree. We seem to have alot of those lately.
 

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Hopefully now that judges aren't just handing out first place ribbons because there are only one or two dogs in the ring, that will cut down on it a bit. I've seen numerous judges only give a second place ribbon and hold 1st place because the only one or two dogs in the ring don't fit the standard, it actually happened at our show in Birmingham in January.
 

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IN UKC, AKC, and the ADBA you have to have experience in the breed and that means breeding and showing I do not know how the ABKC does it. Contact the registries and ask if you can judge because you think you have a good eye and see what they tell you. In UKC and AKC once you have been accomplished in your breed then you are allowed to take a test on the breed standards of the other dogs in your group to be a group judge. I have several judge friends in AKC, UKC, ADBA we talk about this all the time where personal preference playa big part of it. You can have a 4 show weekend and have different cup winners each show. If all judges were the same and judged the breed standard the same then all 4 shows would have the same out come with the same dogs.
 

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IN UKC, AKC, and the ADBA you have to have experience in the breed and that means breeding and showing I do not know how the ABKC does it. Contact the registries and ask if you can judge because you think you have a good eye and see what they tell you. In UKC and AKC once you have been accomplished in your breed then you are allowed to take a test on the breed standards of the other dogs in your group to be a group judge. I have several judge friends in AKC, UKC, ADBA we talk about this all the time where personal preference playa big part of it. You can have a 4 show weekend and have different cup winners each show. If all judges were the same and judged the breed standard the same then all 4 shows would have the same out come with the same dogs.
:goodpost: :goodpost::goodpost:I agree Lisa and it makes perfect sense how can you evaluate dogs to a standard that you don't fully understand because you have never had the exp to evaluate what your truly looking at by breeding dogs yourself. This makes all the sense in the world to me. Like I said I believe I have a good eye for beautiful animals but that does not qualify me in any shape or form to be a show judge. I am not a breeder therefore I don't fully understand the art of breeding and that ties into many things when evaluating dogs in a show ring. And your right every judge is going to evaluate dogs differently based on standard and personal preference.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
there are a lot of good points being made. Like I said I would like to attend more shows and keep reading up on the breed and learning as much as I can. Im still young (25) so I have time and like I said I am close the champing out my boy Luciano in the classic class so I would like to finish out his title run by the end of the yr fingers crossed and that would maybe help me out as well.
 
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