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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a question for you experienced breeders out there ..I know breeding for color is NOT a good thing . But I have been wondering how people determine the color there pups will come out when the dogs are bred .. say for instance , Izzo and weiser ..{who are both fixed } had puppies how would I guess what color/traits the puppies would carry on? There has to be some kind of system lol or how would people breed for good qualities , because there are no perfect dogs out there .. lol I know im rambling , but any info would be good , I have a knowledge bug that wont let me stop thinking about it .
 

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I wonder the same thing and been reading up onit like crazy trying to learn. Havent had much response on here but here are the links I have been reading on and learning there seems to be alot involved this is just the color gene info , there is a ton more when going into other genetic issues. Hopefully someone will have more to add or better links for more info.
http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/40516-learning-color-genes.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
thank you , you know its really starting to bother me , I can find info on genes with labs, mastiffs , great danes , aussies but nothing on the apbt . I just want to learn lol I dont know why it all has to be so secretive =] thank you for the link .. Im looking at it righhht now =] maybe we can share info we learn .. Ill let you know if I find anything out .
 

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Pits Are For Chicks
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Learning genetics and knowing the dogs in the pedigrees of each side will give you the ability to best guess. However thats not always how it will work as surprises happen.
 

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to know the parents genes its pretty much just looking at colors? and ther parents though right? like if we know the granparents and great granparents ect down theline we willknow what they carry ? or can they have other genes in there that maybe you wouldnt tell by looking at the parents colors? like can genes be passed down.

We asked a breeder about the tri genes , say you take a female who isnt tri to a male tri will you get tri pups? her answer was probably not , that you could maybe get male tri's but deff not female tri's that they need a gene from both parents. Reading the link i put above it talks about the tan points (at) allele that 2 are needed it doesnt say they have to come from both parents or can one parent only pass on 1 ( at) allele? and if they do infact need 2 then how would she be able to say you could get male tri's ? wouldnt it either be a yes or no question as to if tri pups could happen?

then said if a female has the tri ( at) allele thenshe could throw tri pups but that looking back in her ped you would have to look at the litter mates of the dogs in her ped as they could carry they gene and just not have it present ,how if there is a tri pup in the litter the rest of the litter can carry the tri gene as well even if they themselfs arent tri/

LOL how confusing was I now? LOL. Im slowly getting some of it then something else clicks and it makes me rethink what i thought I knew already LOL .

Izzo would deff like to talkwith you as you learn this as well , may be able to bounce things off eachother and help learn along the way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Okay so heres a question for you then lol .. Okay this mite get confusing but I am goign to try to get it all straight lol ..

Izzo Great grandmother was a solid blue female ..
Izzo great grandfather was a solid white male .. {possibly mixed with bulldog , who knows}
Izzos mother had the exact markings of Izzo but was a blue color and white
Izzos father was a chamapangne colored male who's parent were fawn and brindled blue

Now in Izzos litter there were 3 Chocolate colored males , and all the other puppies came out black and white .. please explain how something like this would happen ..

I just cant rap my head around these things..
 

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Ill try and get it but im learning too so hoping KM or fire will come in and shows us the right answer lol .
But blue can be (BBdd) or (Bbdd) now the brown pigment is (b) so would lead me to think the blue dog in this case was (Bbdd). the gene for blue fawn is (bbdd) so falls in with the rest of those dogs doesnt it? for the white dog he could carry those same genes but the pattern comes from the S series right? and he would most likely be (sw) extreme piebald where he is all white. which paired with the blue dog would make sense on the white and blue offspring, however if he carried other genes that werent visible they could be passed down as well. the fawn dogs would pass the (Ay) allele toproduce fawns and browns wouldnt it?

LOL hope i didnt confuse you more , I tried LOL.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
ohh geeeesh what am I getting myself into lol ..
 

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ohh geeeesh what am I getting myself into lol ..
LMAO maybe were a bad pair to bounce off lol both learning and probably confusing eachother more LOL.
 

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Once you get the idea genetics is pretty easy to follow. Many genes are simple dominate or recessive, but when dilutes start popping up and color variations it becomes harder to figure what you will get as dogs are often genetically mislabeled.

For example someone who says the grandparents of a dog are black, yet the dogs are actually seal.. well that gives you a different genetic out come.

Some things like Blue and red are simple. Both parents have to be carriers or it will not show, but maybe passed and carried.

Some colors can be carried for many generations without showing so knowing what colors of puppies parents and grandparents have thrown also helps figure what everyone carries not just what they express.

You need to know the colors and know how those genes are passed and carried.
 

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Learning genetics and knowing the dogs in the pedigrees of each side will give you the ability to best guess. However thats not always how it will work as surprises happen.
Best answer in this thread!:goodpost:

You can't predict color in litter's you can get a good idea of what you might get based on the parent's and what's behind the parent's linage. If your dog is bred right or tightly on a particular family of dog's it's pretty likely they will all come out the same color as most of the dog's in there ped. If you study different family of dogs you will see certain lines are known to throw certain colors. Now this doesn't always mean that something different can't happen like with recessive genes that are hidden by both parents that can always throw out surprises. Example Mayday Dogs are usually tan with black masks or red. Eli dog's are usually Black but you can also see red dogs come up out of these dogs. Again nothing about genetics is written in stone but if you have a pedigree and you can study the dog's behind the parent's that can help you especially when the dog's are bred consistently.I don't get all technical about genetics because if your not a whiz and haven't studied genetics than all these letter's just don't make sense to someone just wanting to know the basics. If you plan on breeding in the future you can pick up a book about genetics and learn quite a bit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
LMAO maybe were a bad pair to bounce off lol both learning and probably confusing eachother more LOL.
Lol , no im sure we'll figure it put ... you have gad litters I havent , soo ill just listen and learn=]
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Best answer in this thread!:goodpost:

You can't predict color in litter's you can get a good idea of what you might get based on the parent's and what's behind the parent's linage. If your dog is bred right or tightly on a particular family of dog's it's pretty likely they will all come out the same color as most of the dog's in there ped. If you study different family of dogs you will see certain lines are known to throw certain colors. Now this doesn't always mean that something different can't happen like with recessive genes that are hidden by both parents that can always throw out surprises. Example Mayday Dogs are usually tan with black masks or red. Eli dog's are usually Black but you can also see red dogs come up out of these dogs. Again nothing about genetics is written in stone but if you have a pedigree and you can study the dog's behind the parent's that can help you especially when the dog's are bred consistently.I don't get all technical about genetics because if your not a whiz and haven't studied genetics than all these letter's just don't make sense to someone just wanting to know the basics. If you plan on breeding in the future you can pick up a book about genetics and learn quite a bit.
Dont plan on breeding anytime soon , Im twenty and plan on becoming a breeder when I retire .. so I got awhile lol .. I just wanna know as much as possible about the breed .. and learn all I can ..
 

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If you just want to learn study bloodlines there is a lot of consistency in these bloodlines as far as traits and characteristics go. If you can study pedigree's and bloodlines that will help you a lot. When you start scatter breeding things might not always be so cut and dry. But knowing dog's and what's behind them can really tell a lot not just about color, but certain traits that were selected for these family of dogs. Also I would get a book on genetics and read it that will get more in depth and technical about how genetics work not just with color's but with genetic diseases as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
If you just want to learn study bloodlines there is a lot of consistency in these bloodlines as far as traits and characteristics go. If you can study pedigree's and bloodlines that will help you a lot. When you start scatter breeding things might not always be so cut and dry. But knowing dog's and what's behind them can really tell a lot not just about color, but certain traits that were selected for these family of dogs. Also I would get a book on genetics and read it that will get more in depth and technical about how genetics work not just with color's but with genetic diseases as well.
Thank you , I have done alot of research on the more popular bloodlines that I have herd of .. do you have any in particular that interest you that maybe I could start out with .. I live in a area were the smartest people youll get think that a red not mixed with a blue nose will make a lilac colored nosed pit lol .. so I need people to talk about this with a learn from ..
 

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Sadie do you have a certain book you recommend? have you read any that have stood out? im on ebay now looking around LOL , gotta love late night shopping ;)
 

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I have Animal Genetics - The Science of Animal Breeding F. A. Crew

Introduction to Veterinary Genetics
Frank W. Nicholas

These are the two I have read that I think are worth owning.
 

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It's extremely difficult to know exactly what will pop out of any given litter without knowing not only exactly whats in the dog, (aka ped/history) but also what traits may be hidden that will be passed along. You also have to consider and understand whats dominate, whats recessive and what belongs where. It can get further complicated if you want to also get an idea of what you may be getting when it comes to body color, mask or no mask, markings, brindle or no brindle, etc.

If you have a line that historically only produces one color, lets say red (AyD-E-) the chances of a random color popping out is going to be virtually non existent unless A. A dog in line that is red was a product of another breeding that consisted of either two reds with a carrier of another color or one red with another mixed in. B. Gene mutation. Inbreeding and other forms of tight breeding practices will greatly limit this but there is no 100% rule.

When we look at the color "blue" (As-ddE- or blue brindle Ay-B-ddEbr-), unless you are breeding blue to blue the likely hood of all blue litter is virtually non existent, it is possible for there to be blue pups among that litter even though the trait is dominate.. For instance if you breed a blue to a black dog.. All blue is, is a dilute of black yes? So with that said it is possible. If the black dog is not a carrier it would make that scenario less likely but not entirely. Mutation and a good dose of chance.

There are lots of good books on genetics out there as well as good websites out there with useful information, of course you do have to understand what you are looking at to make sense of it.

Introduction to Quantitative Genetics (4th Edition) by D. S. Falconer

Control of Canine Genetic Diseases (Howell reference books) by George A. Padgett (good for basic information, i think fairly "user friendly" for those that don't really under stand it)

Canine Reproduction: A Breeder's Guide by Phyllis A. Hoist

There are also some excellent human genetic books out there to look into as well, i can post if anyone is interested. Even if your not interested in the human aspect there are many references that can be applied.

Otherwise lots of good posting here, if you have a more specific question i can do my best to translate it so all can understand. lol
 

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thanks KM and Sadie for the books, I found 1 of the ones Sadie mentioned on ebay but going to look around today and compare prices on amazon maybe ,will look into the ones you mentioned KM, thank you.
 
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