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It's has been interesting to follow different posts on how pure breed owners have shown sarcasm and even aggression towards other dog owners who just simply made the choice to own a so called mutts. :eek: In my opinion a piece of paper shouldn't determine the level of happiness of owning any dog, Regardless of where it comes pure breed or half breed. I'm a proud rescue dog owner and the fact that I took Junior home with me makes it even more beautiful and special. As to me he's not a pure breed he's not a half breed or a mutt, to me Junior is unique.

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No, here the rule is that no one is allowed to say that something looks like a purebred from the pictures we see. The rule is that we have to SEE the pedigree on the dog and have it ordained by certain people as "true", because most pedigrees are "hung" ya know.

Some of us like to look at a picture and say that it "looks like" (breed), but that's not allowed here and that is the controversy.
 

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verdugo...you were direct and honest in your post, and I can respect that. I would most likely fall into the category of "pure breed" owners you described, so I'll give you my honesty in return. Please follow my words, so as not to misunderstand.

You are a happy and positive pet owner, and enjoy the companionship. No problem with that at all, from my end. I myself do not hate dogs, unless they are human aggressive without a cause. The main thing I have a problem with is the new owners who claim their dog is something it is not. I have been in love with the American (pit) Bull Terrier since I was a child. While I liked all dogs, those were my favorites. Always will be. IMO they have things about them no other dog ever will.

I'm sure you're aware of the bad reputation of the breed I own? Well guess what? The bad rep came from, and still does, mutts, who have the look, but fail in all the true characteristics of the ApBT. Sure the true ApBT's are dog aggressive by nature, and will not hesitate to attack on sight in most cases....but attacking humans? This breed suffers most from newbies who never learn the truth of the breed, and have these mutts. If they are pack dogs, it is most likely they are not true ApBT's. Lots of attacks happen in packs.

Now, as for papers, I hate when people say it is just a piece of paper. What it truly is is a family lineage. I can trace my own dogs back to the late 1800's. I am proud of that, and many others are too. Also, when people use the words like yours, it is like saying none of the history matters. It is as if you are saying it is okay for all pure breeds of dogs to become extinct...for every dog to be a mutt. But guess what? Mutts are the result, EVERY time, of irresponsible breeders and peddlers, back yard breeders! To say you love mutts is to condone that. To me, people paying good money for a good dog shows me they value the dog and won't mistreat what they spent their money on. And the very people and breeders you should hate are the ones who produce the mutts that end up in shelters. Nobody, in their right mind, will give a dog they paid over $1000 for to a rescue.

While your heart may be good, people like you error in your reasoning, IMO. I hate the people that produce mutts, and often, am furious with those who condone it, and they are the rescuers, trying to save poor quality dogs that can never represent a true breed..but it is not the dogs fault, and it doesn't mean they are bad dogs.

So it is a paradox I have given you. I do understand what you are saying, about Junior being Junior. Not a mutt. But understand, I am proud to own dogs from a lineage of Champions! And I would never trade them for the back yard mutts...
 
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For me, its all about performance. I don't care about papers, I care about hogs on my tailgate and meat on my table. Most of my yard is crossbred, and not by accident. Some of those crossbreds have pedigrees that can be traced back for a little while, certainly not to the extent mentioned above, but carefully picked dogs nonetheless and a couple decades of somebody else's work that I get to share. The last registered dog I owned was a cull. The crossbred stuff born here a couple summers ago was finding their own hogs last year. Papers don't catch me hogs. Good dogs do. If they happen to have papers then fine. Some of the best pedigrees out there aren't in a registry. They're in some old man's dresser drawer. Different than pets I know, but worth saying.
 

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No, here the rule is that no one is allowed to say that something looks like a purebred from the pictures we see. The rule is that we have to SEE the pedigree on the dog and have it ordained by certain people as "true", because most pedigrees are "hung" ya know.

Some of us like to look at a picture and say that it "looks like" (breed), but that's not allowed here and that is the controversy.
Not true... amd besides that I have mutts and papered dogs that arent apbt or bullies and my dogs get more love than most folks dogs do from apbt, mutt, bully, amd none dog owners... I give love to good looking dogs with responsible owners regardless of papers or breed.... quit being a Debbie downer or push on...

Also on a side note; human aggression CAN and IS passed down genetically as with dog aggression. If you have a mastiff influence you can get both traits(trust me I know). Now it isn't always passed down genetically and can be formed in any dog... also more than 1 purebred [ ] dog that has been human agressive and even some dogs have thrown thr trait. To deny that is boldface lieing...
 

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verdugo...you were direct and honest in your post, and I can respect that. I would most likely fall into the category of "pure breed" owners you described, so I'll give you my honesty in return. Please follow my words, so as not to misunderstand.

You are a happy and positive pet owner, and enjoy the companionship. No problem with that at all, from my end. I myself do not hate dogs, unless they are human aggressive without a cause. The main thing I have a problem with is the new owners who claim their dog is something it is not. I have been in love with the American (pit) Bull Terrier since I was a child. While I liked all dogs, those were my favorites. Always will be. IMO they have things about them no other dog ever will.

I'm sure you're aware of the bad reputation of the breed I own? Well guess what? The bad rep came from, and still does, mutts, who have the look, but fail in all the true characteristics of the ApBT. Sure the true ApBT's are dog aggressive by nature, and will not hesitate to attack on sight in most cases....but attacking humans? This breed suffers most from newbies who never learn the truth of the breed, and have these mutts. If they are pack dogs, it is most likely they are not true ApBT's. Lots of attacks happen in packs.

Now, as for papers, I hate when people say it is just a piece of paper. What it truly is is a family lineage. I can trace my own dogs back to the late 1800's. I am proud of that, and many others are too. Also, when people use the words like yours, it is like saying none of the history matters. It is as if you are saying it is okay for all pure breeds of dogs to become extinct...for every dog to be a mutt. But guess what? Mutts are the result, EVERY time, of irresponsible breeders and peddlers, back yard breeders! To say you love mutts is to condone that. To me, people paying good money for a good dog shows me they value the dog and won't mistreat what they spent their money on. And the very people and breeders you should hate are the ones who produce the mutts that end up in shelters. Nobody, in their right mind, will give a dog they paid over $1000 for to a rescue.

While your heart may be good, people like you error in your reasoning, IMO. I hate the people that produce mutts, and often, am furious with those who condone it, and they are the rescuers, trying to save poor quality dogs that can never represent a true breed..but it is not the dogs fault, and it doesn't mean they are bad dogs.

So it is a paradox I have given you. I do understand what you are saying, about Junior being Junior. Not a mutt. But understand, I am proud to own dogs from a lineage of Champions! And I would never trade them for the back yard mutts...
Goemon,

I Thank you for same honest answer and I am with you where certain individuals do miss represent the ApBT Which has descended on the ban of the breed due to legislative actions.
But it's also important to understand that is also to people like me and many others who rescue this mutts to love them and care for them so that the cycle of terror ends. Such as ring fights, aggressive behavior etc.

At the end they will also become family dogs. That goes with "is not the dogs it's the owners". And I do believe that pure breeds are also left at shelters. Sad but true were both mutts and pure breeds add to the over population of dogs worldwide I guess we all know where they end up.

And trust me I do respect owners who value a good quality dog as you have told me yes they invest good $ to be in touch with history and lineage on the other hand I decide to value life.

And our ideas might be interpreted in different ways but no one or nothing should be left out or behind because they were the product of irresponsible people.

And No I Do Not Want The Original Breed to become extinct. I highly doubt that will ever happen. But yes you really give me something to think about and maybe one day we could share experiences good and bad ones about our dogs now part of our families.

I have found great people who have helped me when I was in distress with Jr. And now I'm glad to come across individuals like yourself who i can add their knowledge to my advantage and experience. :beer:

I also would like to add that Jr is a parvo survivor and guess what he is a donor his immune system can help other puppies survive that deadly decease. It was a remarkable experience and very expensive one too, maybe we could talk about it in another time.

See you around.

Thanks!.

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There is NOTHING wrong with owning, loving, or competing with a mutt. It's the BREEDING of them most of us despise.

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I own a mutt who I got from a byb. I believed them when they said it was an accidental breeding. It was only after I got him home that I found out that he was from the second "accidental litter" there has since then been another "accidental litter".

I have decided never again will I get a dog that has not come from purposeful breeding, by people who love the breed, and are working toward improving it and upholding the standard passed down by the forebears of the breed. This applied for if I decide to get a whippet or a staffie, or a bulldog.

I am saddened to hear people say don't shop adopt. I feel that that black and white mentality will end all pure bred dogs. I will donate to shelters. But I do believe that there are a multitude of people ready and waiting to refill the space you have created by adopting a dog. Part of me incline to support the incentive forass sterilization of dogs without pedigrees.

we are what we do repeatedly. excellence is then not an act, but a habit. - Aristotle
 

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Every medium sized black dog with a medium coat length is not a "lab mix." Well, the same is VERY true for the bully breed dogs (that the media calls a pitbull). You need to understand that bully breeds are not like others. You can pretty much tell if a dachshund is purebred. There are not really any other breeds like them! They are unique. There are over 20 breeds that make up the bully breed dogs, and all have similar features. Yet they are each a separate breed.
Real deal true American Pit Bull Terriers are NOT easy to come by. I know you might find that hard to believe but it is the truth. The breeders of these dogs know them well and like keep their dogs in small circles.
There are American Staffordshires, American Bullies, English Staffordshire Bull Terriers, English Bull Terriers, American Bulldog, AND all the mastiff breeds. These human aggressive dogs that are attacking people are most likely crossed with a mastiff breed somewhere down the line, which can makes them dangerous dogs. Mastiffs are guardians and have no problem protecting and attacking people. Well, mix that with another bully breed and you have the genetics for a human agressive dog with the stubbornness of the Terrier. Not good.
Many of these so called "pitbulls" are decendants of AmStaffs who have been crossed to create these bigger more muscular dogs years and years before you got your hands on the pup. Hope that makes sense.

Papers do not make a dog a great dog. But papers are key to understanding the history of the breeding of your dog, whether there was human aggression, etc. and understanding the genetics and temperament of the dog. With a random dog with no paperwork, you do not know the history of the great great great grand parents and what made your dog what it is today. One of the great great great great grand parents could have been human aggressive and then it could pop up again in your dog.
True American Pit Bull Terriers we're not intended to be human aggressive dogs and they were also not intended to get along with other dogs. When people started breeding away from the purpose of the original dog the problems arose unfortunately.

What if you had purebred hunting Labradors and competed in field trials, hunted, etc. with them and bred them to keep them as true to form as possible. What if I come along and I adopted a dog from a shelter or got it from someone on Craigslist and it is a black dog with medium fur and the rescue organization or seller called it a lab or lab mix. Is this right? No! What if in reality this dog was a pointer/spaniel/shepherd mix...but because it looks the part of a lab it is called a lab. This is wrong.

All that being said there ARE great dogs out there who are bully breed mixes who are wonderful pets! I have fostered many of them. Being a dog of unknown origin or heritage (mutt) is not necessary a bad thing as many are great dogs-- but call it what it is! It's in everyone to want to label their dog as some breed, but if you have a bully breed dog with an unknown family origin/history it is not right to call your dog a breed that it is not.

I hope this helps you understand! :)
 

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It's in everyone to want to label their dog as some breed, but if you have a bully breed dog with an unknown family origin/history it is not right to call your dog a breed that it is not.
In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with it. It's a GIVEN that a rescue dog or shelter dog has an unknown history and origin. Everyone KNOWS that. It doesn't have to to LOOK like a BREED! As you say, it's just normal to discuss a dog in terms of what it looks like; who cares what it's background and pedigree and accomplishments are. It doesn't have to have ANY of those to look like a particular breed!

Edited to add: You know, going by what you say, I'd HAVE to look at a picture of a Bernese Mountain Dog or a game-bred looking APBT and say it's a mutt, because I didn't know the pedigree or if they were champion mountain dogs or match dogs. I can't DO that. Makes ME look pretty stupid, wouldn't it?
 

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In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with it. It's a GIVEN that a rescue dog or shelter dog has an unknown history and origin. Everyone KNOWS that. It doesn't have to to LOOK like a BREED! As you say, it's just normal to discuss a dog in terms of what it looks like; who cares what it's background and pedigree and accomplishments are. It doesn't have to have ANY of those to look like a particular breed!
So all black guys are African Americans???

Looks don't designate a breed.
and when speaking specifically about a APBT, the accomplishments mean EVERYTHING! while the pedigree has less to do with it, but its important also..

Matter of fact, some of my deep game bred APBT dogs don't even look like the publics view of what a "pitbull" is, though its more so than any other they think is....
 
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In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with it. It's a GIVEN that a rescue dog or shelter dog has an unknown history and origin. Everyone KNOWS that. It doesn't have to to LOOK like a BREED! As you say, it's just normal to discuss a dog in terms of what it looks like; who cares what it's background and pedigree and accomplishments are. It doesn't have to have ANY of those to look like a particular breed!

Edited to add: You know, going by what you say, I'd HAVE to look at a picture of a Bernese Mountain Dog or a game-bred looking APBT and say it's a mutt, because I didn't know the pedigree or if they were champion mountain dogs or match dogs. I can't DO that. Makes ME look pretty stupid, wouldn't it?
Secondly, IT DOES MATTER what folks with unknown bully breed dogs, pitbulls or whatever you want to call them, what they call them.. It matters because those of us with pedigree dogs that get lumped in with "bulldog breeds" we all have dogs that wouldn't maul people, or any of the stupidity that is shown in the news and when everyone says theyre all just Pitbulls, BSL steps in and takes them all.. Even the properly bred ones with the traits we all love..
Dreamer... It absolutely matters
 

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But dreamer, there isn't a difference in the working or non working dogs...
They are all the same just depends on what the owner wants to do with the dog.
The coined term APBT cannot be used to cover every daggon dog that has some "pitbull" blood in it, however predominant....
The point is because of the years of words like yours from folks, and the bad breeding practices to include crossing into anything other than a APBT (bully, bulldog, AmStaff..etc, or even other breeds of dogs) while still calling your dog a APBT is what makes the problem.. Side by side there are physical characteristics that differ, and some that are the same, through looks you could sometimes never tell it had a dalmation or something thrown in there, which right then and there makes it no longer a APBT, but now ,, a mix breed dog, period.
 

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Every medium sized black dog with a medium coat length is not a "lab mix." Well, the same is VERY true for the bully breed dogs (that the media calls a pitbull). You need to understand that bully breeds are not like others. You can pretty much tell if a dachshund is purebred. There are not really any other breeds like them! They are unique. There are over 20 breeds that make up the bully breed dogs, and all have similar features. Yet they are each a separate breed.
Real deal true American Pit Bull Terriers are NOT easy to come by. I know you might find that hard to believe but it is the truth. The breeders of these dogs know them well and like keep their dogs in small circles.
There are American Staffordshires, American Bullies, English Staffordshire Bull Terriers, English Bull Terriers, American Bulldog, AND all the mastiff breeds. These human aggressive dogs that are attacking people are most likely crossed with a mastiff breed somewhere down the line, which can makes them dangerous dogs. Mastiffs are guardians and have no problem protecting and attacking people. Well, mix that with another bully breed and you have the genetics for a human agressive dog with the stubbornness of the Terrier. Not good.
Many of these so called "pitbulls" are decendants of AmStaffs who have been crossed to create these bigger more muscular dogs years and years before you got your hands on the pup. Hope that makes sense.

Papers do not make a dog a great dog. But papers are key to understanding the history of the breeding of your dog, whether there was human aggression, etc. and understanding the genetics and temperament of the dog. With a random dog with no paperwork, you do not know the history of the great great great grand parents and what made your dog what it is today. One of the great great great great grand parents could have been human aggressive and then it could pop up again in your dog.
True American Pit Bull Terriers we're not intended to be human aggressive dogs and they were also not intended to get along with other dogs. When people started breeding away from the purpose of the original dog the problems arose unfortunately.

What if you had purebred hunting Labradors and competed in field trials, hunted, etc. with them and bred them to keep them as true to form as possible. What if I come along and I adopted a dog from a shelter or got it from someone on Craigslist and it is a black dog with medium fur and the rescue organization or seller called it a lab or lab mix. Is this right? No! What if in reality this dog was a pointer/spaniel/shepherd mix...but because it looks the part of a lab it is called a lab. This is wrong.

All that being said there ARE great dogs out there who are bully breed mixes who are wonderful pets! I have fostered many of them. Being a dog of unknown origin or heritage (mutt) is not necessary a bad thing as many are great dogs-- but call it what it is! It's in everyone to want to label their dog as some breed, but if you have a bully breed dog with an unknown family origin/history it is not right to call your dog a breed that it is not.

I hope this helps you understand! :)
^^^^ :goodpost:

It took me years to find a good breeder for my APBT. But I own many mutts. I have a Dachshund mutt, American Bulldog mix/mutt (I know the parents but the parents are of unknown linage), and a GSD (Who doesn't have papers so it makes him a mutt).

Nothing wrong with it. Each dog is a wonderful addition to my family. But they are also pet dogs to me. They are there to be spoiled and loved on with no intentions of doing anything with. My APBT on the other hand, who is papered, is a working dog. And yes, I like the fact I can pull out his papers and research the dogs in his ped and breeder and know who they are/were.

But there is nothing wrong with a mutt. I love them all. If it has four legs, a wet nose and a long sloppy tongue for kisses, a dog, I love it. :D
 

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Side by side there are physical characteristics that differ, and some that are the same, through looks you could sometimes never tell it had a dalmation or something thrown in there, which right then and there makes it no longer a APBT, but now ,, a mix breed dog, period.
So, what do I get to say IS an American Pit Bull Terrier?

IS the definition any dog that is proven game, no matter WHAT it looks like? (there is something to be said for this, actually; but I will ask your opinion...)

Or, are you saying there is no such thing as a BREED as defined today?
 

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But there is nothing wrong with a mutt.
Absolutely not. But that's not the issue. It's me being able to look at a picture of a dog (ANY dog/breed) and saying it appears to be of a certain breed.

Apparently, they don't like you doing that on this board.
 

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Kelevra
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APBT is a bloodline in essence.

You can call a Pitbull that has a defined geneology consistent and entirely comprised of dogs that were bred for the pit (American (pit) Bull-Terrier, over the hundreds of years that they were bred for that one reason alone.

Game doesn't make an APBT, sometimes an APBT is game, I know bandogs and otherwise that are game as they come, but they aren't an APBT, because the blood was mixed somewhere with something else..
Only with the last 30 years the recent upsurge in shows and new creations has the APBT become an AmStaff, a bully, or whatever. And those with those dogs should call them by what they are. Because they are not a "pit""bull""terrier"

getting through yet>>??
 

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Kelevra
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\ It's me being able to look at a picture of a dog (ANY dog/breed) and saying it appears to be of a certain breed.

Apparently, they don't like you doing that on this board.
So my absolute APBT, no questions, no problems, that DOES NOT LOOK LIKE A PITBULL, you would be saying that because of looks I don't have an APBT. or vise versa..

her dog could have bulldog and Labrador and fox terrier In the blood and will look just like that. In no way shape form or fashion can you or anyone "look" at a dog and say for certain it has any of the old APBT bloodline anywhere in, near, or around their blood....
 

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But dreamer, there isn't a difference in the working or non working dogs...
You don't think there is a difference in the show-bred English Setters and the field dogs? Really?

it's the same for APBTs. But at least for now, they both have the same breed name; and many people can look at both and have a pretty good idea of what is the conformation show version and what is the field or working version; not all the time, but generally-speaking.

And yes, I know that there is the thought out there that the show dogs should be NOT be called the breed name -- that the working version is the original and should get the name..and there is something to be said for that thought. I'm just going for what IS the paradigm at present.
 
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