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Ok, so I was kind of wondering a few things after reading a couple posts here on the site...

I had a puppy who was like a great x4 grandson of the dog Jeep. After researching this Jeep I learned he possesed extreme gameness! In addition he would have to be a perfect example of "beautiful in the box". Well my puppy died, I can't tell you how, as I don't know. He was curled up asleep on the porch in his box, dead.

But I was curious, when you get a dog from these game tested lines, because obviously to alot of people here gameness is very important, what do you do with it? I mean my pup's mother wasn't tested, but his father had been a fighting dog for the people who owned him prior to my pups breeder. His name was Brick. My pup himself wasn't tested either, but if he had been and if he was a very game possesed dog, what would I do with all that game?

Another question, if very few people, from the posts I've read, support the actual game testing (dog pitted with dog) and wouldn't do it themself then why do it all? I mean, yeah, I know, to preserve the lines... But if most don't fight them anymore, and do not support fighting then what good does having game do?

They say, "Well, my dog has been game tested, I know he has game but I am not going to fight him, just hunt like bears or hogs with him" Then why not test them for game against bears, or hogs? If you want a weight pull dog with game then why not test him with a weight pull related test?

Please know that with this subject I am on either side of the fence and have not taken a postion on anything. In addition, I have an open mind and just truely want to learn what happens and why.

Although I realize fighting is illegal, I understand it had to be to get what we have today... I also have another question, but I guess I may save it for later.. This post is long enough :p
 
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Contrary to some beliefs .... Game testing can only be done one way there is no other way to test for gameness without putting them in the box this is the ultimate test there is no other way. To Retain Gameness one must also be game testing each generation with every breeding either use it or loose it. Dog fighting is illegal in the US but is still very much a legal sport in other parts of the world. Game Bred is really a meaningless term that is used to describe dogs who stem from 1-3 generations of game tested dogs (proven box dogs). No on here that I know of game tests anything and anyone who comes online and openly admits they do is an idiot because it's illegal in the US. However some of us believe in preservation of the breed. Because dog fighting is legal in other parts of the world the APBT is being preserved for the purpose in which it was intended for. Without preservation you no longer have purpose. If you know anything about the history of this great breed you will understand that gameness is the ultimate virtue that makes the APBT who it is today. If you remove the purpose for which the breed was originally intended for you no longer have the APBT. Just look at the Amstaff(once a box dog) and what they have become after 80+ years of selective breeding for the show ring. Breeds have a purpose our breed the APBT was bred for blood sport. Therefore they can't be saved from the fate of their original creation. Regardless of what people try to do to change these dogs into something they are not. There will always be dog men working behind the scenes to keep them honest and true to purpose. Those of us who wish to own these dogs in the US use them legally and work them to the best of their ability without breaking any laws. I hope this helped.

PS... the reason why we own APBT's today is because of preservation game testing dogs;) After so many generations without game testing you pretty much have an Amstaff. Here are two of my dogs pedigree's you can see both come from at least 3 generations of game tested dogs. Some dogs stem from tested parent's and grandparents really anything after 3-4 generations is meaningless to me anyway.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=328954

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=175576
 

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Thank you! And yes, this has helped. Actually, you were the one I was hoping would read, and reply to this. I really respect your knowledge.

Also the whole illegal dog fighting in the U.S. bit, I don't fight any of my current bullys and only one them actually has a ped of some sort, and even it didn't come from a reliable sorce, but they are eyepleasing and for me, that is simply enough. However, I think of pit fighting alot like UFC fighting. People claim it's cruel because you are forcing dogs to fight, but are they really? How many of them dogs actually like it? Alot I would say. I know many of the game dogs do all they can to get at each other and it's all their handlers can do to hold them back. So what's up with this? People let people fight people.. why not the other way around?
 

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owning a dog from tested lines to me seem to be the ultimate experience here you have a dog that is loyal to it owner and will finish a any task asked of it by its owner, no matter what. This quality that is the strongest in only the truest game bred dogs, that is the reason to preserve the line. Because these dog are the APBT that will thrive in any event.
" Any thing you can do i can do better"
Because of the drive that gameness has given dogs bred from these lines. They will excel in almost any events or sports the owner of one can ask of them.
 
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owning a dog from tested lines to me seem to be the ultimate experience here you have a dog that is loyal to it owner and will finish a any task asked of it by its owner, no matter what. This quality that is the strongest in only the truest game bred dogs, that is the reason to preserve the line. Because these dog are the APBT that will thrive in any event.
" Any thing you can do i can do better"
Because of the drive that gameness has given dogs bred from these lines. They will excel in almost any events or sports the owner of one can ask of them.
Ok yes, but these same game tested loyal dogs have to be the only pet in a family or kept on a chain. There, how loyal can that be? i understand preservation is key, but here, where their initial purpose is illegal what in the world are we supposed to do with them? We can give them almost any task and yes, they will strive to complete it but how dare you bring in another animal.. The old would most likely be forgotten no? Wouldn't that prey drive override and become the new task?
 

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I agree it is tough to have more than one. We have three any though they are not extremely game. We ar very care full. My dogs are all inside dogs. In crates when i am not home but can be out under supervision. Just because they are game does not mean they are blood thirsty animals. Mine run loose in my back yard when I let them out. It is not the dog that makes the situation bad it is the owner who doesn't know what to do with them.
 

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I gotcha.. I have three bullies, my self.. The newest pup came from a breeder who claims he is Watchdog Eli and Colby, and the Mocha blueberry Moonshine.. But I have no clue since he is was CKC registered and they didn't give me his papers... He wasn't but $75 bucks and he was kinda thin, so he was one of them unpapered rescues :) However.. My other two are pit lookalikes lol.. They have no papers whatso ever .. I just thought they were pretty... Anywho.. The lil pup is pretty aggressive at just 4months.. and our bigger male is very protecetive.. The only thing that keeps them from killing each other is my happy go lucky female who never met a stranger lol
 

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Yeah it gets crazy some times. I do say though that I only have one male. so the two females I have to watch more I have one my youngest female she is really calm in the house. with my dogs in general but she can't even see another dog on the street without acting a fool. I just turn her a way from the other dogs force her focus on me and let it pass. Yes it is work but I wouldn't trade her any less DA dog in the world because she is the best snug bug we own.
 

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Thank you! And yes, this has helped. Actually, you were the one I was hoping would read, and reply to this. I really respect your knowledge.

Also the whole illegal dog fighting in the U.S. bit, I don't fight any of my current bullys and only one them actually has a ped of some sort, and even it didn't come from a reliable sorce, but they are eyepleasing and for me, that is simply enough. However, I think of pit fighting alot like UFC fighting. People claim it's cruel because you are forcing dogs to fight, but are they really? How many of them dogs actually like it? Alot I would say. I know many of the game dogs do all they can to get at each other and it's all their handlers can do to hold them back. So what's up with this? People let people fight people.. why not the other way around?
That's the thing if you have ever had the opportunity to see these dogs in the box or have read up on any stories about old dog matches you will come to learn and accept these dogs are not forced to fight ... It's been selectively bred into them the DA which means Dog Aggressive that is what motivates a bulldog to fight so when people say it's mean to let them fight what they don't understand is to a bulldog fighting is enjoyable to them because it's been instinctively bred into them. Gameness is the ability to withstand the most extreme circumstances without faltering it is the deepest most unimaginable virtue of the APBT the heart of them that one can only have a true understanding for by witnessing it first hand. It goes beyond what many of us can truly comprehend there are old stories written about dog men crying and being spooked by what they actually saw in the box. If you have seen an old dog match you will see their tails are wagging they are as happy as can be to be doing what they love. Dog men don't put dogs in the box who don't want to be there. There is no way to train a dog to fight everything is bred into them. You can condition them for the fight but you can't train them to fight the fight is bred into them. Most of what you hear and see about dogfighting and anti-dog fighting organizations is really just propaganda, lack of education, and hate for a breed they would rather see destroyed. There is a right and a wrong way to match a dog if your going to do it. Yes you have little knuckle head thugs who match dogs without having any respect for the dogs or the sports. But those dog men who are in it for the dogs and for the love of the sport and competition breed and box dogs to the highest standards set by dog men of the old days. I personally think it's cruel to fight a dog who was not bred to fight but to fight a bulldog a dog who was bred for the sport and wants to be in it because they were genetically bred for gameness is not cruel. These dogs will always have that history it can't be erased or wished away. Bulldogs are a fighting breed. if people can't accept them for what they were bred for they shouldn't be allowed to own such a great dog. You will notice those who are in denial about the history and the breeds genetics are the ones who are endangering these dogs with BSL. You can't change genetics you can embrace these dogs for what they really are and learn how to properly handle and responsibly care for them if you choose to own them.
 

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:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:
it is also important to understand that if a dog turned away from the fight. The two were separated and the one who turned was given the chance to "scratch" Or pulled back and given the chance to go back across the ring to the other dog. If the dog chose not to fight the fight ended, and that dog lost. But it was never made to fight when it chose not to. the loser be a declared a cur was not usually bred.
 

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Yes any dog who was proven to be a cur or turned away from it's opponent was an automatic cull. There were some dogs who quit and were still bred IMO a dog can quit for a number of reasons and they are not machines if they have been doing it long enough they are bound to quit at some point. But even those who have quit once were still game dogs a one time quitter means nothing when they have proven themselves time and time again that they can produce winner's and have shown great gameness. Every situation is different dog men made the call based on each dog. But a flat our cur would be culled and never bred.
 

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Yep i was mostly pointing out the fact that once the dog cured out it was not forced to fight. Case and point no makes the dogs fight. They have the choice to scratch or not.
 

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Thankyou soo much for wording that the way you did. It was perfect. I know soo many people who need to read this.

No, I haven't ever watched a dog fight, but I have read up on several. I read the Buck X Sandman article you wrote.. I knew in the beginning what answer I was looking for.. However I wasn't sure if I was looking at things in the right perspective.. Obviously, I was.. Thanx again. I was trying to explain to someone the connection that could be made between human UFC fighters and pit fighting.. Both are similar under the aspect that they want to do it. Love it. Cruel is not letting to UFC fighters fight.. Cruel would be picking a random bum off the street, telling him goodluck and pitting him with a champion UFC fighter no? It the same with the dogs.. After reading this, they understood a little better thanx a mil ! :goodpost:
 
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Yes you are correct Rudy ;) Just wanted to go into a little deeper because we had some dogs who quit but were still good producer's. But your right a flat out cur would never be forced to fight it would be culled and removed from the breeding program as there is no use to keep a cur when you have plenty of dogs who want to be in that box. That BS you see on TV with idiots pushing dogs into each other trying to force them to fight is not how it was really done or how it's done period. When your in the box and the handlers let go those dogs can't wait to get to their opponent and get down to it some have a hard time holding onto them until they are released they want to fight badly that is the difference between a game dog and a cur . A cur turns away from it's opponent it doesn't want to be in that box and dog men never kept those dogs on the yard LOL they were culled bottom line.
 

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Thankyou soo much for wording that the way you did. It was perfect. I know soo many people who need to read this.

No, I haven't ever watched a dog fight, but I have read up on several. I read the Buck X Sandman article you wrote.. I knew in the beginning what answer I was looking for.. However I wasn't sure if I was looking at things in the right perspective.. Obviously, I was.. Thanx again. I was trying to explain to someone the connection that could be made between human UFC fighters and pit fighting.. Both are similar under the aspect that they want to do it. Love it. Cruel is not letting to UFC fighters fight.. Cruel would be picking a random bum off the street, telling him goodluck and pitting him with a champion UFC fighter no? It the same with the dogs.. After reading this, they understood a little better thanx a mil ! :goodpost:
Cruel is taking 2 cur's AKA quitting dogs a dog that does not want to fight and pushing them to fight ... Any heavily invested dog man deep in the sport doesn't ever take a dog he has bet his money on (lot's of money) that will flat out quit or doesn't want to fight. They will roll and test these dogs for gameness prior to betting on them. But if the dog turns up to be a cur it's culled dog men only keep/breed dogs who are game and proven. They have no time for a dog who doesn't want to be in that box ;)
 

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I really think any one who wants to know could just read the old Rules of matching dogs. I have a copy of the UKC rules. and a book with countless others. they all state that a turn the scratch line are at least 4 feet apart so the dogs had to chose to engage each other.
I don't see were the get that any made these dogs do this.
 
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LOL the cajun rules baby!! ...

Rule 1: The principals shall select a referee who is familiar with the rules and who is satisfactory to both sides. The referee will then appoint his timekeeper. Each handler will select a man to act as his chief second or cornerman, whose duties are to wash the opponent's dog, and to remain near this dog's corner as an observer.

Rule 2: Each handler is to furnish two clean towels and a suitable blanket, to be used by his opponent. Either handler may demand that the opposing handler and his cornerman bare their arms to the elbows; also the handler may taste his opponent's dog's water before or after the contest (up until the referee has rendered his decision on the contest).

Rule 3: No water, sponges, towels or any other accessories are allowed in the pit at any time, except the referee who shall have in his possession an adequate breaking stick and a pencil; also a copy of these rules. The pit shall not be less than 16 feet each way, whenever possible, with a canvas-covered floor, upon which has been painted or chalked on, 12.5 feet apart, and with a center-line half way between the scratch-lines.

Rule 4: The referee shall toss a coin to be called by the handlers. The winner of the toss shall decide which dog shall be washed first and also have the choice of corners.

Rule 5: The dogs shall be washed at pit-side in warm in water and some approved washing powders and then rinsed. The first dog to be washed shall be brought in and held in the tub by his handler and washed by the opposing cornerman. When pronounced clean by the referee, the dog shall be rinsed clean in a separate tub of warm water and toweled dry as possible, then wrapped in the blanket provided and carried to his appointed corner by his handler and accompanied by the man who washed him. These are the only two persons allowed near this dog until the dogs are let go. The other dog shall now be brought in and held in the tub by his handler and washed (in the same water) by the opposing cornerman. When this dog is pronounced clean by the referee and rinsed clean and toweled dry, he shall then be carried to his corner by his handler and accompanied by the man who washed him.

Rule 6: The referee shall now ask "Are both corners ready?" If so, "Cornermen, out of the pit"..."Face your dogs"... "Let Go" The timekeeper shall note the time and write it down for future reference.

Rule 7: Any dog who jumps the pit is automatically the loser of the contest and no scratches are necessary, and no dog is required or allowed to scratch to a dead dog. The live dog is the winner.

Rule 8: Should either dog become fanged, the referee shall instruct the handlers to take hold of their dogs and try to hold them still so the handler can try to unfang his dog. If this isn't possible, the referee shall separate the dogs with the proper breaking stick and then unfang the dog using a pencil. The referee will then order the handlers to set their dogs down near the center of the Pit and approximately two feet apart. The referee will then order "Let Go" This in no way constitutes a turn or a handle and has no bearing of the future scratches.

Rule 9: This is to be a fair scratch-in-turn contest until the dogs quit fighting, then Rule 13 shall take over. The first dog to turn must scratch first; thereafter they are to scratch alternately (regardless of which dog turns) until one dog fails to scratch and thereby loses the contest.

Rule 10: To be a fair turn, the dog accused of turning must turn his head and shoulders and his front feet away from the opponent and regardless of whether or not the dogs are otherwise touching.

Rule 11: The referee shall call all turns, although either handler may ask for a turn on either dog. If the referee rules there has been a turn, he will instruct the handlers to "pick up free of holds" as soon as possible, and should either dog accidentally get a hold again, the handlers shall set the dogs down immediately and make a continued effort to pick up the dogs, free of holds. When picked up, the dogs must be taken to their respective corners and faced away from their opponent. The timekeeper shall note the time and take up the count (not out loud) and also the referee shall notify the handler whose dog must scratch.

Rule 12: At 25 seconds, the timekeeper shall call out "Get Ready" At these instructions each handler must toe his scratch-line and face his dog toward his opponent with his dog's head and shoulders showing fair from between his handler's legs, and the dog's four feet on the canvas floor. At the 30 seconds, the timekeeper calls out "Let Go" and the handler whose dog must scratch must instantly take his hands away from all contact with his dog and also release all leg pressure from against the dog's body. And the dog must instantly start across and the handler must remain behind his scratch-line until his dog has completed his scratch or the referee has ruled upon it. There is no time limit on the time required to complete this scratch. But, when released at the words "Let Go" the dog must start across at his opponent. He may waver from direct line, fall down, crawl...drag or push himself across, so long as he makes a continued effort and DOES NOT HESITATE OR STOP until he has reached out and touched his opponent. The opposing handler may release his dog any time he sees fit after the order to "Let Go" however, he must do so as soon as the dogs have touched each other.

Rule 12A: This is an alternate rule for those handlers who wish to have their dogs counted out in the corner. It is the same in all respects as Rule 12, except that after 30 seconds, when the timekeeper calls out "Let Go" the referee shall count our loud, at as near one-second intervals as possible, ONE...TWO...TIME (three seconds), and the dog must be out of his corner and on his way before the referee calls "time" or lose.

Rule 13: If the dogs have apparently quit fighting, whether they are helpless, tired out or curred out, and regardless of whether both dogs are down or one dog is down and the other dog is standing over him, but neither dog has a hold, the referee shall ask it they are willing to scratch-it-out to a win or not. If so, they shall proceed to do so, but if either handler is unwilling, then the referee shall instruct the timekeeper to note the time and call time in two minutes. If either dog breaks time, then nothing has changed, but if, at the end of the two minutes, the dogs are in the same relative positions and neither dog has a hold, the referee shall order the handlers to handle (PICK UP FREE OF HOLDS) their dogs. When picked up, the dogs shall be taken to their corners and the corner procedure is the same as in a normally called turn and handle. If there have been no previous turns or handles to establish the order of scratching, the dog who has been the longest without a hold (usually the down dog) to be scratched first, then, as soon as free of holds, the dogs shall be picked up and the other dog scratched. Should one dog fail or refuse his scratch, then the dog who failed shall lose the contest. If both dogs fail to scratch, the referee shall call it a no contest, but should both dogs make their initial scratches, the handlers by mutual agreement may ask the referee for a draw decision. The referee will then rule it a draw. Otherwise the contest shall continue, but in this manner: any time the dogs are not in holds and not fighting, the referee shall order the dogs to be handled and scratched alternately until one dog fails to scratch and thereby loses. No attention is paid to turns (after Rule 13 is invoked) except as a possible chance to handle.

THE REFEREE HAS FULL AUTHORITY AND HIS DECISION IS FINAL IN ALL MATTERS.

Rule 14: Fouls that will be just cause for losing a contest:
A. To leave the pit, with or without the dog before the referee has ruled.
B. To receive anything from outside the pit, or allow anyone outside the pit to touch or assist the dog.
C. To push, drum, throw or spank, or in any way assist a dog across his scratch-line, except by encouraging him by voice.
D. To step across a scratch-line before the dog has completed his scratch or the referee has ruled on it.
E. To stomp on the pit floor or kick the pit sides, yell at of give orders to the opponent's dog, or (in the referee's opinion) do anything to distract or interfere with either dog while scratching or fighting to affect the outcome of the contest.
F. To interfere with the opposing handler or touch either dog until the referee gives an order to handle the dogs.
G. To use a "Rub", "Poison", or "Hypo" on either dog.

Rule 15: If there should be any outside interference before the contest has been concluded, the referee has full authority to call it a "NO CONTEST" and shall name the time and place the contest is to be resumed and fought out to a referee's decision. (The same referee shall preside.) Also, the referee shall insist that the dogs be washed and weighed (in the referee's presence), and the dogs shall weigh at the weights specified in the original articles of agreement, and to do this as many times as necessary to conclude the contest.

CAJUN RULES VARIATIONS

Instead of Rule 12A in which a dog has three seconds to leave his corner, he is usually given ten seconds to cross to the other dog.

A 30-second out-of-hold count is generally used, and the down dog must always scratch first (unless both dogs are down with neither in a position of advantage).

The pit may be covered with carpeting rather than canvas (Rule 3), the scratch lines may consist of some of the modern tapes, and the central line between the scratch line is often omitted.


For Historical Purposes Only
 

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First off, Apasa, I am sorry to hear about your pup passing away :(

But I would like to say, Apasa, Sadie and Rudy, great thread!!

After being on the site for a while and reading different threads and learning about bloodlines, the definition of gameness and purpose of it all, I have always wanted to make a thread with the same questions but never knew how to word them. So thanks Apasa :) also, I agree and was expecting Sadie to come in and share her knowledge, I've seen that you know your stuff and thanks Rudy too :)

There is a question that was asked that I don't think was answered. What would be the purpose of owning a gamedog since the sport is illegal and what would you do with it? Granted, yes, it would excel at sports, but all pitbulls should, right? I've read on here and I think I understand that gamebred dogs can be a big handful as general family pets and have even seen people post things along the lines of "people should stick with petbulls". These are just things that have been on my mind and any insight from people with knowledge on gamedogs would be greatly appreciated :)


Side note: I remember reading an interview with one of the Colby dogmen that a member on here did for a class. They posted it on the site and I remember Colby (I forget his first name, sorry) said that above all else they breed for gameness. It was in all caps, so I can tell he emphasized it. Now, going off what Sadie said and what I have read on here, gameness can be pretty nonexistant after a few generations without actually testing for it. So going off the interview, it would mean they still put dogs in the box, right?


Ok, I feel like I've been rambling, but this thread has been very informative to me. And of course, when you learn new things, you have more questions haha.
 
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