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SASSY MINX
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What I've learned from this site is to get a particular breed of dog, you take the personality, health & demeanor then breed w/ an alike dog to get the temperament the breeder is looking for.

So, what is it that caused dog aggression to thrive in the APBT? Was it selective breeding in the early years breeding dominant dogs w/ dominant dogs to get the type of dog they wanted since the wanted to match dogs?

Or - did a person just stumble upon a DA breed & then light bulb clicked, thus the idea to match dogs arose?

How did it all come to be?


Hopefully that makes sense.


Thought about posting this in the working dog section. But the fact there's so many newbies as of late w/ great info - didn't want to miss out on their input too :). Just a basic chicken or the egg type question
 

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After men domesticated or took in wolf pups, they would keep only those that were friendly towards humans. Wolves are agressive by nature because they are hunters, they do not fight for fun rather to eat and survive. As men domesticated these wolves even more they started breed for several purposes, remember you are starting out with a hunting animal all you do from there is breed towards what you like. There were several type of domesticated wolf type, hunters, protectors and each one was built different. You have the sighthounds, catchdogs and then you get the guarding types. I believe the fighting strains evolved from catchdog/hunting types. These dogs were brave enough to hunt big game and not turn back when in pain. So they evolved to just fighting chained animals such as a bear, bulls and other wild animals. After this becomes illegal they start breeding the dogs to work against each other so they can pit them into fights that are easier to hide from the police.
 

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natural selection does wonders for animals, once the human touches the breeding you begin to see modifications in every aspect of the animal. This is why we have such a diverse species yet they share 98 or 99 percent of the dna of the wolf.

 
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Proud CGC Parent
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natural selection does wonders for animals, once the human touches the breeding you begin to see modifications in every aspect of the animal. This is why we have such a diverse species yet they share 98 or 99 percent of the dna of the wolf.
I saw a nat geo show about dogs and how it is that we have so many different variations in the species and yet they still share 98% of their genome with wolves.

Turns out there is a slippery quality to dog's DNA, in particular. The way their DNA is set up, it is more easily able to mutate into the different dog breeds we see today, and the mutations occur at a quicker rate than any other animal species. With dogs it only takes a couple of generations, whereas other animal species require hundreds of generations.

I'm trying to find the link now ....
 

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I saw a nat geo show about dogs and how it is that we have so many different variations in the species and yet they still share 98% of their genome with wolves.

Turns out there is a slippery quality to dog's DNA, in particular. The way their DNA is set up, it is more easily able to mutate into the different dog breeds we see today, and the mutations occur at a quicker rate than any other animal species. With dogs it only takes a couple of generations, whereas other animal species require hundreds of generations.

I'm trying to find the link now ....
They also did an experiment with fox and after a few generations of breeding friendly types, they were changing colors and coat types.
 

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DA is to APBT as retrieving is to labs. It is hard to breed out a trait.
Any trait can be bred out no matter what the breed is. It wont be easy and it can take many years but if we did it with a wolf we can do it with a domesticated dog too.

I think there is a lot of misinformation about dog agression, a dog barking growling and trying to act a fool is not the same as the willingness to battle until the death. You can take a poorly bred labrador or a poodle, not socialize it and not teach it proper behavior/mmaners, not expose it to other canines when developing. The result will be a fear agressive dog that will go after everything. Once this labrador meets its match has a dog battling back I can see it running away from danger or submitting.

So there is the dog agression show which is one thing and then there is the ability to battle through pain and this is something completely different.
 
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Fat-Dogs-R-Us
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Daaang David! :goodpost: s. You swept this thread under the rug. Hats off to this excellent thread you guys.
 

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Dare to dance the tide
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I really don’t know what kind of experience you have with all types of dogs David but I have been around the block a few times with all breeds of dogs and I can tell you that many will die fighting. It is not something that is just an APBT trait. The same can be said for the dog that has had no interaction at all and can be the most submissive dog out there. It genetics how else do you explain the dogs that are mix breeds the ones that are obviously more than one breed yet they display traits of certain breeds over others. I will refer again to the lab. They are known for their retrieving skills you can have a dog that has many breeds in it but that retrieving trait out shines anything else.

Maybe you can breed traits out over the course of many, many years but it doesn’t come easily.
 

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I really don't know what kind of experience you have with all types of dogs David but I have been around the block a few times with all breeds of dogs and I can tell you that many will die fighting. It is not something that is just an APBT trait. The same can be said for the dog that has had no interaction at all and can be the most submissive dog out there. It genetics how else do you explain the dogs that are mix breeds the ones that are obviously more than one breed yet they display traits of certain breeds over others. I will refer again to the lab. They are known for their retrieving skills you can have a dog that has many breeds in it but that retrieving trait out shines anything else.

Maybe you can breed traits out over the course of many, many years but it doesn't come easily.
How many years do you think it took to from a pack hunting mentality and bullbaiting dogs to create the American Pitbull Terrier?

You can selectively breed and test for whatver you want and the traits will be there if you do it right. Just look at the American Bully although not a tight selective breeding program rather just breeding for looks but tell me where can you find a pack of 10-12 real APBT that can hang out without a leash without trying to fight?

I don't think you can sucesfully isolate any traits without culling, testing and proper breeding. So because Bernie is dog friendly that doesn't mean he will produce 100% dog friendly puppies. There is too many variables and not enough tangibles to make it happen like that.
 

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I can tell you that many will die fighting. It is not something that is just an APBT trait. The same can be said for the dog that has had no interaction at all and can be the most submissive dog out there.
This is true any dog can die fighting. Bulldogs are susceptible to fighting because of their genetic make up Dog Aggression is instinctive within our breed. I am going to tell you now if you let 2 bulldogs go at without breaking it up they will continue to go until one gives up or until one or both die fighting.

David... Growling, Barking, snarling, acting a fool those are all just early warning signs of what's to come if no intervention is made to stop the fight before it starts. Some dog's give off very little if any signs at all before a fight. Other's appear to be happy until those tails go straight up stiff as a board when suddenly all hell breaks loose. Every dog is different and can react different based on circumstances. Once you have been around this breed long enough and have seen enough fights you just know what's coming and what warning signs to take heed to. When a dog growls at another dog that's nothing to brush off. I have seen a simple growl turn into a blood bath in a matter of seconds.

The willingness to fight to the death or to tolerate pain doesn't mean much either not as it relates to gameness that's a whole different entity within itself. Bulldogs have a high threshold for pain and will continue to fight because they enjoy doing it their instinct is what motivates them to fight gameness is the ability to maintain or withstand the fight regardless of the extreme conditions or circumstances the dog faces during a fight. There are also various levels of gameness but I am not going to go into all of that.
 

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Other's appear to be happy until those tails go straight up stiff as a board when suddenly all hell breaks loose.
That's what Kane did at Petsmart with the lab. They were having a great time, Kane's tail was wagging and happy, his body was relaxed, and then the lab put his paws on Kane and it was instantaneous. The tail went up straight up and he growled.
 

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^

I never take Bruno's growling lightly. I don't want a fight,and am not looking at breaking one up.
As soon as he growls,or even gets a stiff tail,I'm pulling him away from said dog.
He doesn't really get to meet dogs anyway,I will let him do a butt sniff,if he wants,and that is all.
I keep a good 6 inch leash rule with him and dogs I do not know.

This is a very interesting topic though,and I have wondered this myself from time to time.
 

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most pit bulls have lost the use of threat displays completely, and
will engage without being provoked... with not much
of any warning sign of aggression. no need to announce your attack
if it was your plan to do so once you got in range. curs
will flash and snarl do to insecurities and are deemed bad signs
by many old dogmen. then you have fight crazy dogs that scream, claw,
and scratch their way towards other animals, but thats more along the
lines of a frenzy to make physical contact, not to try and threaten or bluff,
its done out of anguish.
 

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SASSY MINX
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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Have to say I disagree - a well trained eye/behavior specialist will always pin point signs of DA. A simple stance is enough portrayal to read ;)

A dog flying off the handle are also signs - the fact it does that without warning (IMO) is proof it's mental health is HIGHLY imbalanced & irresponsibly bred.
 

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after 20 yrs with this breed i just make stuff up as i go along.
my trained eye must have glaucoma.
 

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SASSY MINX
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I'm not disrespecting you. Just form my own opinions - we both have different points of views. In no way am I going to claim I know it all no matter how basic or extent my knowledge base is.

It'd be cool to see some genetic scientific proof based along w/ 'dogmen' records. But dogmen & scientists are two different cups of tea.
 

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you have theory, and then you have field work.
IE: real world experience vs books.
both often contradict each other, as books tend to be
personal opinion by the author, and not a culmination
of real world scientific research. I'll dig up some old
interviews to shed some more light on this subject.
 
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