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Gotta Love Them Red Dogs!
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In your opinion:
Acceptable or Deformities?
 

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Premium Member
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it terms of what, lol. a pet? a working dog? a show dog?
 

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Premium Member
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I hate easty westy and big splayed out feet one of the worst faults in my book , would keep me from buying that dog , but to each there own. The sway back is just ugly.
 

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Original Prankster
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I think it's deformities. I hate seeing dogs with turned out feet and horrible sway backs, splayed yucky feet, and people praise it saying what a BA dog it is. Makes me sick, so sad to see dogs that way.
 

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OCD Bullyologist
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I hate the term easty westy. It is called toeing in or toeing out . In a pet it is what it is, but it is not acceptable for a show dog to have this issue for me personally; however per ABKC standard it is not a fault as long as it isn't more than 45 degrees. Each registry has a standard that addresses this. It is a fault, but not a deformity unless it impacts quality of life, which I have seen a few in the bully world like this, but nothing I condone and definitely wouldn't own.

Sway back is a major fault because it usually means the dog is high in the rear, but unless it prevents a dog from leading a quality life it isn't a deformity, just a fault.
 

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English Dogge Yard
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3,441 Posts
Easty Westy no good, no matter the degree. Can hinder the performance greatly and cause shoulder/leg problems later down the road.. Sway back more or less the same however a high rear can be beneficial.. In a working dog.. With zero draw backs so long as the rear doesn't sit so high as to structure weakness..

In game dogs, Chinaman, Q.O.H, Black Mup, Badger... High rears, straight legs, both.. List can go on, many excellent producers and many hard mouthed, quick, feared in the [] dogs have had poor rears by registry standard.. Poor rear doesn't automatically equal poor structure, for instance Kilie has a high rear..excellent performer.. Many inbred hounds in the past have had semi - decent to poor rears, one had what to be considered a poor chest, poor rear..lots of faults but solid performer and bar none flame throwin bomb..

Show dogs? You want that registry talk to a T... Dot your i's as well and be sure to evolve with the forever changing standards as time trots along..
 
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Premium Member
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Easty Westy no good, no matter the degree. Can hinder the performance greatly and cause shoulder/leg problems later down the road.. Sway back more or less the same however a high rear can be beneficial.. In a working dog.. With zero draw backs so long as the rear doesn't sit so high as to structure weakness..

In game dogs, Chinaman, Q.O.H, Black Mup, Badger... High rears, straight legs, both.. List can go on, many excellent producers and many hard mouthed, quick, feared in the [] dogs have had poor rears by registry standard.. Poor rear doesn't automatically equal poor structure, for instance Kilie has a high rear..excellent performer.. Many inbred hounds in the past have had semi - decent to poor rears, one had what to be considered a poor chest, poor rear..lots of faults but solid performer and bar none flame throwin bomb..

Show dogs? You want that registry talk to a T... Dot your i's as well and be sure to evolve with the forever changing standards as time trots along..
Good post. Take a look at some old, and not so old, pictures of game bulldogs and notice the toeing out, etc. Pretty didn't mean anything in the box...and these were solid dogs that no one would have problems breeding to.
 

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Either is okay in moderation in my book like KM said as long as it doesnt't effect performance. IMO I would prefer a slightly toeing dog over a sway back. To me if the back actually sways then the back end is to high. There for the is streight making the the back end weak. A dog with a weak back end is going th have problems getting out of a corner.

Also spending time learning from ADBA judges. The ADBA give most points for back end. They say it is where the.power comes from. Where as a slight inward toe just means the dogs elbow come out. A good bulldog who come to mind that had crazy out at the elbow. Is one of the greatest, Barracuda. So it is hard for me to say the toes out or in is that big of a deal.
 

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Gotta Love Them Red Dogs!
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487 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I wasn't asking for myself;
Just wondering.

I own a game dog as all you know,
But I have noticed Toeing In & Out are VERY prominant in Bullys and wanted to see what you guys thought about it. It personally looks horrible to me.

I posted about this on Rednose Nation and got blasted about how "I shouldn't be talking poop while I own a dog with a undershot jaw!" lol. I really DO NOT like that forum,irrogant jerks all piled in one area. But I seen MANY pics lately of dogs with these faults and just wanted opinions :)


I am glad I am not the only one who finds it ugly.
 

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Jr MEMBER
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1,309 Posts
Is it a deformation?
I tend to ask myself, "Do you see this in the wild? And if so do they survive?"

Edit:
I would call it a faulty gene, as by definition a deformitiy is a genetic mutation (random gene mutation) and Easty/Westy has been around for awhile. Technically everything is a mutation, as natural selection culled the bad mutations and left to good ones.

Since in dogs we are pretty much the only means of natural selection for them other than severely life threatening things, I'd say to S/N and not breed dogs with the faults.

With sway back, I agree with KM.
 

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SCRATCHIN
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I haven't seen too many wolves but I have seen some and every wolf I have seen is toeing out (lions as well). Idk if that says anything thou...
 

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Premium Member
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awwww poor O'Malley I hate crap talkers! like jeesh you are just asking not judging people's pets!!
 

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Gotta Love Them Red Dogs!
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487 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
awwww poor O'Malley I hate crap talkers! like jeesh you are just asking not judging people's pets!!
Exactly; I wasn't saying any specific dogs. & I also blasted him with the fact O'Malley is in fact, FIXED. Jerks. lol. I'm glad people on here are down to earth unlike other forums.
 

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Pits Are For Chicks
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16,258 Posts
I don't care if its game bred or bully its crap IMO.... If you have a pet that is like that no big deal, I have had my own share of pets only a mother could love lol, but it is something that should be bred away from and I have seen excellent looking dogs in both the game and bully area so their is no need to settle for seriously flawed dogs.
 

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Gotta Love Them Red Dogs!
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487 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I wasn't saying it isn't seen in the games.
& I agree cull out those who have it,
from breeding atleast.

I am not knowledged in bullys due to my background being amongst game bred so I didn't know if it was accepting amongst bullys due to seeing it so much/
 

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Premium Member
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depends who you ask in the bully world lol, some like to call it "freak" but IMO its nasty and shouldnt be seen in breeding programs.. would help if registries had rules against it rather then just allowing it, you allow a small flaw people push the limits.
 

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K9 Pshrynk & Conciliare~
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6,363 Posts
toes in.. terrier toes out bulldog .. undershot jaw, snipey noses... boxed muzzled.. short muzzle... these are part of the original line bred traits the derrived the terrier out of the pit bulldog of the 19th century in England.

EXTREMITIES of any of that are deformities if they prevent the dog from performing the function of which it earns its name..... Bulldog, Terrier, Bandog etc..

Its the Bull and Terrier not because they're both mixed in; its because its the original source of which they both strain out ;) just follow a colby or lighnter pedigree to the near 1790s and you'll see what I mean... the function describes the dog and both the original terrier and bulldog come from the pit bulldog now your game bred APBTs.

If people would quit going by fickle registery standards and keep to tradition we wouldnt have so much confusion. .. still some but not much when you have
"Game Bull Terrier" "Game Pit Terrier" "Pit Bulldog" "Game Bulldog" advertisements and all of em are colby advertisements in different areas depending on what they called the dog... you see all back to one source.. which backs the statement by Dieter Flieg that the first terriers were inbred from Pit Bulldogs... Colby grew up in the ship yard his uncle owned a ship you can follow a Colby pedigree and it tells the history of the breed right there... its the slang terms and the sway of propaganda that determine who thinks what and how and it goes to the core.


Deformities are undesired traits that cause or impend harm or damage to the function and mobility of the so desired critter that is or has been bred...
 

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English Dogge Yard
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3,441 Posts
I wasn't asking for myself;
Just wondering.

I own a game dog as all you know,
But I have noticed Toeing In & Out are VERY prominant in Bullys and wanted to see what you guys thought about it. It personally looks horrible to me.

I posted about this on Rednose Nation and got blasted about how "I shouldn't be talking poop while I own a dog with a undershot jaw!" lol. I really DO NOT like that forum,irrogant jerks all piled in one area. But I seen MANY pics lately of dogs with these faults and just wanted opinions :)

I am glad I am not the only one who finds it ugly.
Now this post caught my attention as you call your hound a game dog.. Tested and proven? Or are you referring more game bred? Just wanted to clarify as by the only standard that matters nobody has a game dog based on how they are bred, a game dog is only that of proven results by only one true method that has stood ground since perfection surrounding the [].

Now not to knock your hound or anything but just wanted to clarify as some people believe they have a game dog based on a ped (in any form) or this that and the other without properly testing all properties that genetically make up such.. In other words...

Bred down from game dogs - "Game Bred"
Tested and proven - Game Dog

Its all in what your into, show folk obviously have a different standard compared to working folk. Just the nature of the beast.. Show folk would find a game dog with faults useless.. Working folk would find a registry standard perfection that can't work, cur, etc.. useless.. All in who you ask.

This is a good topic though, has the opportunity to provide good information for those that don't know.
 

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Gotta Love Them Red Dogs!
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487 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thanks for the post KM;
I guess I would call him Game Bred.
He is Sarona,Hemphill,Camelot.

He is a VERY high drive dog and goes hard on the flirt and spring pole.
Also catches squirrels for a passion and recently some light WP work.

I don't think that is enough to consider him a Game Dog under your explanation, he is no cure though.
Boy thinks he is made of bricks,
Sometimes I think he may as well be LOL.
 
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