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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited by Moderator)
This thread will show examples of structure the good and the bad. So this thread does not get out of control with pictures of everyones dogs there will only be a few dogs posted at a time. Feel free to comment the good and the bad you see on the dogs. Any posts with pictures that were not approved will be deleted, we want to focus on only a few dogs at a time and hopefully it should be educational and fun.

To offer photos please post here
http://www.gopitbull.com/general-discussion/28793-photos-structure-faults.html

Here is a pictures that show different parts of a dogs body if you are not clear on what we are talking about.


I will start with dogs that show under the APBT standard

Tempest



Minor Faults
Tempest could use more drop in chest, her chest does not come all the way down to her elbows so it is a little shallow.

Her shoulders are a little straight and it does affect the way she turns in agility. Especially in UKC straight shoulders are becoming more common and breeders really need to pay attention to them because they effect the movement of the dogs.

Now the good parts of her structure
She is balanced overall and square
Nice head
Great front and pasterns everything straight and in line
Great angulation in the rear and nice tail set
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Here is a great example of a poor front, now she is not an APBT but this shows a good view of an obvious fault.


She does not have straight bone in the front and the legs are bowed out she also is easty/west ( or E/W ) meaning the feet point opposite directions and not straight. This also can be referred to as a fiddle front, when the legs bow out really bad and the feet are E/W.
 

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educational

OK teach... I am listening and learning.... I have read the conformation info but that doesn't mean I can picture what exactly the faults are in my mind's eye. Next...:clap:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I am still learning too so if someone sees a fault I did not discuss on these dogs please feel free to jump in or if you disagree with a mentioned fault or attribute. When I get home from Sch today I will post more dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
This is Onyx and a younger dog at 7 months so still maturing.
Onyx 7 mos old here



I used these pictures to show a dog who is long in the back and not square. The dog is over stacked in the rear so it does make her look longer than she might be but APBT's in UKC and ADBA should be square, as long as they are tall.

This is Justice and she is a little short backed and short in the loin area, she has the opposite of the dog above. Over all everything is nice and balanced but short in the loin.
 

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How long exactly should the loin be in comparison with the rest of the body?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
humm good question I will have to ask Cheryl unless someone else knows. Even pictures are hard to learn from I have been getting hands on help from several ADBA judges and that is what really helps to see and feel what they are talking about.
 

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Ok, got it and it is about the same as horses. Like the shoulder you mentioned. A straight shoulder makes quite a jolt when they run. The more angled the shoulder the more reach they have. It should be a 45 degree angle. A plumb line from the point of the buttocks should ideally touch the point of the hock and run along the cannon bone, falling just behind the heel at the ground. From the rear, the plumb line from the point of the buttock should evenly bisect the entire limb and hoof. (sorry foot) "The basic premise is that strain and concussion will be concentrated where there is a change of direction in the plumb line where it deviates from it. Is this true with dogs???
I see the dog that's long in the back...got that one. But the dog you say is short in the back. Can't see that one. Again, with horses, ideally, the length of a horse's back from the peak of the withers to the point of the hip should be 1/3 of the horse's overall body length (from the point of the shoulder to the point of the buttock, excluding head and neck). Thinking of it that way, does that dog still look short to you???
 

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Ok, got it and it is about the same as horses. Like the shoulder you mentioned. A straight shoulder makes quite a jolt when they run. The more angled the shoulder the more reach they have. It should be a 45 degree angle. A plumb line from the point of the buttocks should ideally touch the point of the hock and run along the cannon bone, falling just behind the heel at the ground. From the rear, the plumb line from the point of the buttock should evenly bisect the entire limb and hoof. (sorry foot) "The basic premise is that strain and concussion will be concentrated where there is a change of direction in the plumb line where it deviates from it. Is this true with dogs???
I see the dog that's long in the back...got that one. But the dog you say is short in the back. Can't see that one. Again, with horses, ideally, the length of a horse's back from the peak of the withers to the point of the hip should be 1/3 of the horse's overall body length (from the point of the shoulder to the point of the buttock, excluding head and neck). Thinking of it that way, does that dog still look short to you???
It's only very slight. I wouldn't have picked it up either but once it's pointed out it really stands out. They should be as long as they are tall. If you measure how tall she is, she needs a tiny bit more length.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Yes structure and how it effects dog is the same as horses for the most part and a lot of horse ppl are great at looking at dog because they have dog it with horses. I love horse ppl because a lot of movement and structure plays a huge part and they are a head of the curve. Like in agility I love it when the students have a lot of horse experience then they know what a lead change means! lol

Yeah Justice is short in the loin and a little short in the back not real bad and the fact that rear leg is over extended make to harder to see. You want to measure from the top of the shoulders to the back of the loin area and you can she she is a little short. That is one reason it has been harder to get her Grand CH. She is one of my dogs and you can really see it in person.
 

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It's only very slight. I wouldn't have picked it up either but once it's pointed out it really stands out. They should be as long as they are tall. If you measure how tall she is, she needs a tiny bit more length.
I see it now that you said it that way....thanks, see how this thread does educate us? LOL:woof:
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Here is a great example of a dog who lack rear angulation. If you look at the stifle and hock area (look at the diagram above if you do not know where that is) you will see there is little angulation they are basically straight up and down. This really effects movement and can cause joint problems as they age.



Here is a picture of a dog with good angulation.I know it is a puppy but you can see the difference in the rear end.

 

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Here is a great example of a dog who lack rear angulation. If you look at the stifle and hock area (look at the diagram above if you do not know where that is) you will see there is little angulation they are basically straight up and down. This really effects movement and can cause joint problems as they age.



Here is a picture of a dog with good angulation.I know it is a puppy but you can see the difference in the rear end.

How much will the lack of angulation affect the dog? I know there are mastiff dogs that have it, I know we are judging the apbt but I'd still like to know.. I wanna post up bernie for you so you can judge it. I know for a fact his rear angulation is not good, he is cowhocked and his neck is not long enough. Plus the lack of angulation in the rear gives the impression of a high back..:(
 

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Discussion Starter #14
It depends on the dog how it effects them, I see it in movement they do not have good push from the rear when running or jumping so range of motion is less. My boston terrier gets really stiff and he is really straight in the rear and over time that can really affect the dog.
 

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Hey Lisa, I've been browsing some 15 year old Gazette issues and see many dogs with "longer backs". Is this not considered a very substantial fault, or is the ADBA more lenient than the UKC? Also, please go to Cheryl's(?) site and on the homepage to the far right, that female appears long backed. Thanks
 

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is it a fault for the back feet to be wider set then the front?
bouncer

jozey both stand a little wider in the rear then the front

heck all my dogs kinda do
 

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The dog is supposed to move in the same "plane" both front and back. So yes, having a narrower front than a rear (or vice versa) would be considered less desireable. When a dog is moving at you, you shouldn't see the rear legs framed by the front, or the reverse.
 

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It depends on the dog how it effects them, I see it in movement they do not have good push from the rear when running or jumping so range of motion is less.
yea.. Dre can run, but he cant quite keep up w/ Daisy.. he also has trouble jumping..
 
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