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http://3badbullies.wordpress.com/2013/10/22/pit-bulls-and-dog-aggression/

I have changed my views on pit bulls and dog aggression.

Ok. Ring the bells. Blow smoke out of the chimney….

I've changed my mind about something.

Now, if you know me, you realize how big a deal that is. I'm a tad stubborn. But, I think it's only a fool that keeps their old position in the face of new evidence. So here is my revelation:

All Pit Bulls are not genetically dog aggressive!!!

(Not all pit bulls are genetically predisposed towards aggression. And, while it may be more prevalent in this breed, it is still extremely rare. They aren't ALL born to fight.)

Now, in the world of dog rescue, this has been the accepted position for a LONG time. And I have always disagreed. And it's started a lot of "discussions".

See, I grew up around the world of fighting dogs. And what I saw, was dogs that were clearly aggro to dogs and totally cool to people. So, when I went into rescue, I was in the position of convincing people that "just because they are aggressive to dogs, doesn't mean they are aggressive to people".

But, then as I got more into rescue circles I saw MANY Pits that fought, socialize with other dogs. I couldn't resolve that in my head. Of course, and no one in rescue likes to admit this, but….. There IS a higher predilection for fighting with bullies than other breeds. And their play style is OBVIOUSLY harder. So…. There is a difference. But…… How to wrap my brain around it?

I think I figured it out.

Their communication sucks.

Wait…. No….. That's not it.

Well, it is technically, but I figured out the reason their communication sucks!

My new mentor, Chad Mackin, is one of the most respected experts in rehabilitative socialization. And he said "Aggression is not a trait….. It's a behavior". That BLEW MY MIND. Because I had always thought the increased dog aggression I saw in Pits was genetic. But in the last few years I've successfully integrated multiple Pits with aggressive histories into my home. And I thought I had just been "managing and preventing" their fighting. But after reading about Chad's work in socializing….. I knew there was more to it.

So…. What are the traits that we bred into them that created the aggression behavior.

Well, we bred them with a SUPER high pain threshold. And Lot's of drive (they adrenalize easily). So. So what? Why would that make them fight?

Well, fights are painful. So fear of injury and pain are a deterrent for most animals. But we bred Pits to have crazy high pain tolerance. So, we removed one barrier.

Now, we get interesting. In the wild…. Fights are expensive. If you get a cut…. You can die of an infection. If you get a broken leg, you can be killed by a predator. Or not hunt. Not good. So smart animals avoid fights. Problem is When you're in adrenaline mode, your ability to make choices goes way down. Chad likes to say that "dogs can't make the right choices, unless they're in the frame of mind that allows the to make choices". He means, that when a dog is adrenalized, he CAN'T make choices. He reacts. Well, we bred these guys to be "drivey", "motivated", whatever. What that means is we bred them to get into the frame of mind that stops thinking about the cost of what they're about to do is. And that removes the last reason.

And that's how fights happen.

The "calming signals" that dogs throw at one another are designed to let the other dog know, that they don't want a problem. But these signals are also called "stress signals"! And that's accurate. See, when a dog feels wary of a possible fight…. They feel stressed. And they throw those signals. The other dog sees them and throws their own. Then both see the other as wanting to avoid the fight.

Here's a super common "Pit Bull gets in a fight" scenario:

Pitty runs up to another dog throwing ZERO calming signals, because he doesn't feel like it's necessary. After all, he's not scared. Then, the other dog starts throwing signals, and the Pit doesn't recognize them because he's either never been around other dogs, or at least other non-bullies. So, he doesn't have much experience reading them. So he keeps being "rude". The other dog goes up the continuum and gives some "warning signals". The Pitty has no idea what this dog is "getting aggressive" for and goes into adrenaline, which renders him unable to consider the risk reward of a fight. Boom…. Fight happens.

If that happens enough. The Pit will get conditioned to go into adrenaline habitually around other dogs. Now you have an "aggressive" dog.

Looking back to my childhood, Dogmen were adamant about not letting game dogs around other dogs out of the pit. They always said it was because they COULDN'T be around other dogs. But maybe (even if subconsciously) they just didn't want them to learn how to socialize. Dogs that read signals don't habitually adrenalize. And a thinking dog may choose to turn. In a pit you can't afford to have your dog "considering" whether of not it "wants" to fight. If your dog hesitates…… Doesn't IMMEDIATELY scratch…. The fight is over. So I think their segregation from other dogs was more of a cause than a symptom of aggression.

Great….. But what do we do about it?

Well, if you catch a dog before they are habitually adrenalized around dogs, you just have to teach them how to communicate. That means spending time with them socializing and being the moderator, or bouncer. You have to watch the other dog for those signals, and enforce them. I watch for the other dog to give a lip lick or what not, and I will go in and split them. Gently. Not loud or fast. Just enforce the signal. I praise (calmly) for good signals. Hell I praise for good reading! And as I gently lead them they slowly learn how to communicate, and I intervene less.

(Now, that is GROSS oversimplification. If you're serious about learning how to do this right, attend one of Chad's Socialization Seminars. )

If they're already HABITUALLY adrenalizing….. You have to get them balanced enough around other dogs that the above process will even have a chance to work!

That's gonna be a project unto itself. But it's doable.

My two males have hospitalized each other a few times, and were BOTH habitually adrenalizing on sight. It took me 4-5 months. But now…. They play, and lounge together. They sleep on the couch together. They even wrestle, and play. Hard. And they give signals!

And more importantly……. They listen to them!!!!

Anyway,

Just wanted to say that I have changed my view. Pit Bulls are NOT naturally dog aggressive.

They are naturally bad communicators, and that leads to fights. And they adrenalize easy, and if that becomes habit the will BEHAVE aggressively habitually. You still have to take more care with them than most other breeds. But they are not born wanting to fight.

"Aggression is a behavior. Not a trait." -Chad Mackin

Those simple words changed my understanding of my beloved breed.

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Curious of people's thoughts on this blog.

I've Changed My View On Pit Bulls And Dog Aggression | 3 Bad Bullies

I have changed my views on pit bulls and dog aggression.

Ok. Ring the bells. Blow smoke out of the chimney….

I've changed my mind about something.

Now, if you know me, you realize how big a deal that is. I'm a tad stubborn. But, I think it's only a fool that keeps their old position in the face of new evidence. So here is my revelation:

All Pit Bulls are not genetically dog aggressive!!!

(Not all pit bulls are genetically predisposed towards aggression. And, while it may be more prevalent in this breed, it is still extremely rare. They aren't ALL born to fight.)

Now, in the world of dog rescue, this has been the accepted position for a LONG time. And I have always disagreed. And it's started a lot of "discussions".

See, I grew up around the world of fighting dogs. And what I saw, was dogs that were clearly aggro to dogs and totally cool to people. So, when I went into rescue, I was in the position of convincing people that "just because they are aggressive to dogs, doesn't mean they are aggressive to people".

But, then as I got more into rescue circles I saw MANY Pits that fought, socialize with other dogs. I couldn't resolve that in my head. Of course, and no one in rescue likes to admit this, but….. There IS a higher predilection for fighting with bullies than other breeds. And their play style is OBVIOUSLY harder. So…. There is a difference. But…… How to wrap my brain around it?

I think I figured it out.

Their communication sucks.

Wait…. No….. That's not it.

Well, it is technically, but I figured out the reason their communication sucks!

My new mentor, Chad Mackin, is one of the most respected experts in rehabilitative socialization. And he said "Aggression is not a trait….. It's a behavior". That BLEW MY MIND. Because I had always thought the increased dog aggression I saw in Pits was genetic. But in the last few years I've successfully integrated multiple Pits with aggressive histories into my home. And I thought I had just been "managing and preventing" their fighting. But after reading about Chad's work in socializing….. I knew there was more to it.

So…. What are the traits that we bred into them that created the aggression behavior.

Well, we bred them with a SUPER high pain threshold. And Lot's of drive (they adrenalize easily). So. So what? Why would that make them fight?

Well, fights are painful. So fear of injury and pain are a deterrent for most animals. But we bred Pits to have crazy high pain tolerance. So, we removed one barrier.

Now, we get interesting. In the wild…. Fights are expensive. If you get a cut…. You can die of an infection. If you get a broken leg, you can be killed by a predator. Or not hunt. Not good. So smart animals avoid fights. Problem is When you're in adrenaline mode, your ability to make choices goes way down. Chad likes to say that "dogs can't make the right choices, unless they're in the frame of mind that allows the to make choices". He means, that when a dog is adrenalized, he CAN'T make choices. He reacts. Well, we bred these guys to be "drivey", "motivated", whatever. What that means is we bred them to get into the frame of mind that stops thinking about the cost of what they're about to do is. And that removes the last reason.

And that's how fights happen.

The "calming signals" that dogs throw at one another are designed to let the other dog know, that they don't want a problem. But these signals are also called "stress signals"! And that's accurate. See, when a dog feels wary of a possible fight…. They feel stressed. And they throw those signals. The other dog sees them and throws their own. Then both see the other as wanting to avoid the fight.

Here's a super common "Pit Bull gets in a fight" scenario:

Pitty runs up to another dog throwing ZERO calming signals, because he doesn't feel like it's necessary. After all, he's not scared. Then, the other dog starts throwing signals, and the Pit doesn't recognize them because he's either never been around other dogs, or at least other non-bullies. So, he doesn't have much experience reading them. So he keeps being "rude". The other dog goes up the continuum and gives some "warning signals". The Pitty has no idea what this dog is "getting aggressive" for and goes into adrenaline, which renders him unable to consider the risk reward of a fight. Boom…. Fight happens.

If that happens enough. The Pit will get conditioned to go into adrenaline habitually around other dogs. Now you have an "aggressive" dog.

Looking back to my childhood, Dogmen were adamant about not letting game dogs around other dogs out of the pit. They always said it was because they COULDN'T be around other dogs. But maybe (even if subconsciously) they just didn't want them to learn how to socialize. Dogs that read signals don't habitually adrenalize. And a thinking dog may choose to turn. In a pit you can't afford to have your dog "considering" whether of not it "wants" to fight. If your dog hesitates…… Doesn't IMMEDIATELY scratch…. The fight is over. So I think their segregation from other dogs was more of a cause than a symptom of aggression.

Great….. But what do we do about it?

Well, if you catch a dog before they are habitually adrenalized around dogs, you just have to teach them how to communicate. That means spending time with them socializing and being the moderator, or bouncer. You have to watch the other dog for those signals, and enforce them. I watch for the other dog to give a lip lick or what not, and I will go in and split them. Gently. Not loud or fast. Just enforce the signal. I praise (calmly) for good signals. Hell I praise for good reading! And as I gently lead them they slowly learn how to communicate, and I intervene less.

(Now, that is GROSS oversimplification. If you're serious about learning how to do this right, attend one of Chad's Socialization Seminars. )

If they're already HABITUALLY adrenalizing….. You have to get them balanced enough around other dogs that the above process will even have a chance to work!

That's gonna be a project unto itself. But it's doable.

My two males have hospitalized each other a few times, and were BOTH habitually adrenalizing on sight. It took me 4-5 months. But now…. They play, and lounge together. They sleep on the couch together. They even wrestle, and play. Hard. And they give signals!

And more importantly……. They listen to them!!!!

Anyway,

Just wanted to say that I have changed my view. Pit Bulls are NOT naturally dog aggressive.

They are naturally bad communicators, and that leads to fights. And they adrenalize easy, and if that becomes habit the will BEHAVE aggressively habitually. You still have to take more care with them than most other breeds. But they are not born wanting to fight.

"Aggression is a behavior. Not a trait." -Chad Mackin

Those simple words changed my understanding of my beloved breed.

Sent from Petguide.com App
Wow Great Read, Very impressive, this is something I will have to look more for, reading material or what not just to learn. Very interesting and thanks for the share
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
hahaha what you skeptical of?

I think its a perfect way to explain what I have badly explained to many people lol. My dog is the way he is because of many circumstances that molded him. I could care less if he recited in public until I realized his distance was getting further and further and further away. No matter what he saw he got so amped up he could care less what the dog or other animal was doing. They were all gonna be a problem. We go to as far as 100 feet and he would do the war cry. The rest of the walk he was anxious and on alert. By learning how to change his behavior around other dogs, he is less anxious and can recover far quicker. My dog is a mutt, he has way more issues than dog aggression. I know many many working or game bred dogs who are able to be around other animals and I know plenty that are unable to be around other animals. For me its about what the trigger is and how you help/enable/allow your dog react to that trigger. You come to accept this is how he behaves because you blame it on a trait instead of seeing if something could be done about it, maybe because you don't care and its not an issue for you. Lots of people claim their dogs are born with the trait, but yet in all other dog breeds only 25% of dogs in CLOSED gene pools inherit a trait. So greyhound to greyhound only 1 out of 4 will be a champion racer. running is a trait but the will to run is a behavior. Border Collie to Border Collie, only 1 in 4 off spring will herd. Labs only 1 in 4 will inherit. If APBT typically "every dog" is DA then maybe its is more environment and behavior than inherited trait. Why would the APBT be different than other breeds in that regard? How can that be explained?

Who knows! anyway curious about what you are skeptical off.
 

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I think it seems too simplified it a way.

It makes sense the way you put.

Maybe I'm just wondering (and don't know) how you would change that behavior.

I have actually been thinking about this all afternoon now. lol. And if I go through instances in my head where I have separated Jones from other dogs it has been for him being "rude". I have not seen his as aggression though, I have seen aggression from the other dog or cat, but he seems to think it's a game. I don't know if that's the same sort of thing though.

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I'm not skeptical at all. Good find Ames.

Got my flame suit on though bc I know where this may go : ( ....(and Ames this response is NOT directed towards you in any way whatsoever.)

This mindset (not all "pit bulls" are genetically dog aggressive) has been my stance on this forum from day 1........and I've received a lot of kickback from members for it:rain:

"furmommy" "softy" or "you're doing the breed a disservice by taking your Luna to the dog park yadda yadda" I've heard it all. For reasons that are beyond me, most people want to ride the coat tail stigma of "I gotz a badd a$$ pit bull" and it does damage and is not good with other dogs so I'm gonna act like a sheep and agree with all the other bad a$$ pit bull owners about my dogs SUPER DEEP ENGRAINED DISPOSITION TO BE NOTHING BUT AN AGGRESSOR IN THE DOG REALM. It's cute, and the weak and uneducated may ride that train but I'm not buying it. Sadly, it is the individuals that are clueless on how to train or deal with their dogs that turn their dogs into social misfits. Get it? Viscous cycle here.

The fact that many are so hell-bent and obsessed with their "apbt's genetic disposition to "fight" and not get along with other dogs" is simply foolish and ignorant. In the same, one should not ignore the disposition of the apbt and the potential that can arise when dealing with your pup in any social setting. The disposition is not the end-all though (take-home message).

Nature versus nurture is no more the debate in this day and age....it is BOTH nature and nurture that shape most living organisms in life. It is the combination, and contribution, from BOTH. It is not one or the other. Dispositions are dispositions, they are not the end-all. Sigmund Freud is dead...and people should read up on him...he was a whack job. (I have my masters in Psychology)

There is a lot of extreme stance'd ignorance as it pertains to the genetics and ever-evolving temperament of the apbt. . I choose my battles now though with this specific topic as the ban stick is strong with me. :doggy:
 

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yes, 1 out of 4 greyhounds will be the champion racer...well 1 out of 4 APBTs could be the champion box dog, we won't know because its not legal. Just because one is champion material doesn't mean the others won't execute this behavior to some degree, and when you breed tight -- when creating the breed....you are increasing the chances of each dog becoming more DA.

Most bloodhounds are obsessed with tracking and sniffing...not everyone has potential to be a great search and rescue dog but they all that've that sniffing ability. I think the article is very interesting, though it doesn't prove true in my dogs cases.

Stephan there are some gamebred dogs that are just straight cold! And just love every dog they meet. Not every dog fits the mold. Its about taking the risk of having your dog attack another at a dog park without warning because that is how it usually happens. Most bully breed dogs, and especially gamebred ones do have some sort of DA at some point in their lives. It just has to be managed. However, you don't own a gamebred dog, or a dog that has shown any sort of DA and until you do, you may not "get" what we are saying.
And no my dogs aren't "bad a$$" and that is not how I think of them at all. Far from it.
 
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I thought this was a pretty good read related to this blog about temperament, written my Nicholas Ryan.
Whether an owner, trainer, or breeder, we all strive to have dogs with “sound” temperament but, not everyone understands how to achieve said results. What exactly is temperament? What environmental or mental factors determine a dog’s personality? Is it all genetic, so therefore it is passed from parents to offspring? Can it be shaped and guided by the environment or experiences the animal encounters? Is it possible to change or alter temperament through training? If it is, how do we teach a stable disposition?

The first thing we must cover and understand is: all dogs have different dispositions and personalities. This is a truth recognized anytime one meets a new canine. Being able to recognizing the differences and understanding a dog's temperament can yield many benefits: Simply understanding your dog’s personality helps us appreciate our dogs. This will give us a foundation for dealing with personality clashes or differences. And most importantly, appreciation leads to greater patience with your canine. The standard concept of Temperament that I have followed is defined by Wayne Davis of the West Virginia K9 College as: “The physical and mental characteristics of an individual dog, made evident through its reaction to stimuli in its environment.”

We can divide the canine temperament into two very broad categories: The Sound Temperament and An Unsound Temperament. The canine that has a Sound Temperament is a confident dog that can be self-assertive without being overly dominant. This dog does not lack confidence and will investigate anything he may be unsure of. You can expect a dog of sound temperament to handle his environment with confidence and without fear. The approach of to life and the environment is assertive and investigative, not timid and fearful. A dog of sound temperament does not bite if startled or frightened, but may proceed to display some dominance. This type of dog makes an excellent pet or working companion when under proper control, and managed by an experienced handler. Now if this canine is uncontrolled his self-assertiveness could eventually lead to management or handling problems. Regardless of whether you own the canine for companionship or for working abilities, the mental balance of this kind of dog makes them a great pleasure to own, more people need to learn the skills to manage this exemplary canine.
Now we must look into what makes up an Unsound Temperament. A canine of Unsound Temperament will rarely if ever display the calm, confident, self-assertive, non-fearful behaviors that a canine of Sound Temperament displays. There are many different behaviors that are thought to be unsound, many of the variations include: Sharp, Shy, Sharp-Shy, Temperamental, Submissive, Overaggressive, and Hyperactive.

Today it seems many people feel that they can ultimately reconstruct a dog’s temperament through socialization and training. Proper socialization and training can alter or modify the level of intensity in an individual dog’s temperament, but ultimately they cannot completely transform it. One thing we must come to realize is the temperament in the dog cannot be cancelled out, it cannot be transformed to another type either. Even with extensive training, the individual temperament of the animal will remain the same throughout the entirety of its life (with varying levels of intensity.) This is simply permanent mental/neurological characteristics of each individual dog. Although some dogs can show over-laps of multiple temperaments, confusing owners into believing they have altered or corrected personality traits.

If temperament cannot be altered or changed drastically through training and socialization, how do we proceed to shaping a personality? Genetics – the breed and pedigree – these two alone have a great influence on overall personality of the canine. It would be illogical though to say the personalities are purely determined by genetics. Nurture also plays a role in how the individual canine’s personality evolves, to an extent! This is also the reason why there tends to be a wide variety of individual and overlapping personalities. Being raised properly holds a great deal of weight when contributing to the canine’s confidence, sociability, and stability. This can also positively affect the canine’s intellectual development.

Now knowing what makes up and causes our canines to have the temperament and personalities they do, how do we go about ensuring we are selecting puppies with the right personality traits? What do we look for when selecting a new canine? The main idea I will always advise is to meet the mother of the puppy you are considering. If she isn't the kind of dog you would want, then don't even consider buying one of her puppies. This is easily the most basic and easy rules to follow when it comes to selecting a puppy. If you are unable meet the mother, you really don't know what type of temperament or personality you are getting.

As previously stated, the temperament, and behavior of the individual canine is guided by a variety interacting and changeable factors. It cannot be solely one factor, such as genetics or environment, but a mixture of interconnecting components that will ultimately provide the canine with the temperament it will have for the entirety of its life, no matter sound or unsound. When we as the handler, owners, trainers, and breeders do not look at that entire package, or simply just focus on one factor, we are then setting ourselves - and our dogs - up for failure. We must not simply write it off as genetics being the only factor responsible for establishing temperament in a dog, but we must remember it is the driving force behind it and will provide the foundation of how the individual canine’s temperament evolves. There are people out there who do believe that “with just enough love any dog can be a good dog.” That is a highly misinformed statement and should be regarded as such. It can often be too much “love” accompanied by a lack of structure that causes many of the temperament issues we have today. --Nicholas Ryan
 

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I think my dogs are badass.... I also raised 2 unaltered males the exact same way. One is a popsicle the other is a psycho. I can only assume that since they both were raised in the same home with the same techniques that genetics played in with the da one..
 

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Exactly. You can't change a dog's temperament. I have socialized the heck out of Pyra and so did her breeder since she was born. Still didn't stop her from attacking her mom at 9 weeks old and being picky about who she likes. And Lucius, well he had no socialization till 4 months old when I got him and he still mostly loves other dogs! His "BFF" is another male dog! Lol!
 
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Stephan there are some gamebred dogs that are just straight cold! And just love every dog they meet. Not every dog fits the mold. Its about taking the risk of having your dog attack another at a dog park without warning because that is how it usually happens. Most bully breed dogs, and especially gamebred ones do have some sort of DA at some point in their lives. It just has to be managed.
Totally agree. Especially the bolded.

However, you don't own a gamebred dog, or a dog that has shown any sort of DA and until you do, you may not "get" what we are saying.
No I do not own a game-bred dog nor to date has Luna showed DA but I do get it...I have witnessed DA and it is not a hard concept to grasp. But yes, you and others with gamebred pups and DA pups will know the intricacies more than I. The concept is not hard to understand though. :eek:

And no my dogs aren't "bad a$$" and that is not how I think of them at all. Far from it.
I definitely wouldn't include you in that category :eek: Sorry if I offended you!

I quoted this from the article you posted Coach.....as it's basically all I am trying to convey :cheers:

"As previously stated, the temperament, and behavior of the individual canine is guided by a variety interacting and changeable factors. It cannot be solely one factor, such as genetics or environment, but a mixture of interconnecting components that will ultimately provide the canine with the temperament it will have for the entirety of its life, no matter sound or unsound. When we as the handler, owners, trainers, and breeders do not look at that entire package, or simply just focus on one factor, we are then setting ourselves - and our dogs - up for failure.
 

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I think my dogs are badass.... I also raised 2 unaltered males the exact same way. One is a popsicle the other is a psycho. I can only assume that since they both were raised in the same home with the same techniques that genetics played in with the da one..
Most likely. So many variables though

Exactly. You can't change a dog's temperament. I have socialized the heck out of Pyra and so did her breeder since she was born. Still didn't stop her from attacking her mom at 9 weeks old and being picky about who she likes. And Lucius, well he had no socialization till 4 months old when I got him and he still mostly loves other dogs! His "BFF" is another male dog! Lol!
Soo odd haha! That damn Lucius. He will always remain a mystery lol
 

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Oh ok :) no I wasn't offended at all -- I'm not like that. I just didn't want you to think that because I own and have owned dogs who are very well socialized and trained but are still DA, doesn't mean I am in to all that "my dog dog is badder than your dog" ish...just didn't want you to think I was like that. But I see that you don't so we're good lol!
 

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When da and ha are known traits in the lines and the dog exhibits both upon reaching maturity its genetic... and what are the variables when I raised them both with the same techniques? Only variables are the lineage...
HA is not a known trait of the apbt...

If a bloodline is bred tight enough with a da dog then yes your percentage for said dog to display da increases. Again, genetics is only PART of the big picture.

When I say variables, I mean variables......most variables are out of one's control. Do you know for a fact every single experience those dogs had and how those dogs internalized/learned/fight or fled from it? If you say you do then we have no reason to debate here (bc I'll know you're off your rocker)(no offense)
 

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Seems pretty iffy to me seeing how many dogs I know where well socialized, raised with other dogs, by people who are dog saavy and who are still reactive/DA. To say pit bulls aren't DA, but then claim they all are somehow social idiots with extreme pain tolerance is just as inaccurate if you ask me. I hear doggy park people complaining about boxers and labs all the time generally playing too rough/in your face for most dogs. And yet most get along with their housemates. I have 3 dogs, in varying degrees of social skills, DA, playing styles and tolerance to pain. They are all quick to amp up and redirect on each other given a reason to.
 

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JTP doesn't have ABPTs ;) he has more of a bandog type which can carry human agressive traits like chows, etc.and other guarding breeds.
 
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Seems pretty iffy to me seeing how many dogs I know where well socialized, raised with other dogs, by people who are dog saavy and who are still reactive/DA. To say pit bulls aren't DA, but then claim they all are somehow social idiots with extreme pain tolerance is just as inaccurate if you ask me. I hear doggy park people complaining about boxers and labs all the time generally playing too rough/in your face for most dogs. And yet most get along with their housemates. I have 3 dogs, in varying degrees of social skills, DA, playing styles and tolerance to pain. They are all quick to amp up and redirect on each other given a reason to.
:goodpost:
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
I think it seems too simplified it a way.

It makes sense the way you put.

Maybe I'm just wondering (and don't know) how you would change that behavior.

I have actually been thinking about this all afternoon now. lol. And if I go through instances in my head where I have separated Jones from other dogs it has been for him being "rude". I have not seen his as aggression though, I have seen aggression from the other dog or cat, but he seems to think it's a game. I don't know if that's the same sort of thing though.

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I have a mutt, I also think this article is addressing more with mutts because that's what the general public sees. Of course a well-bred dog could be out there and hap hazardly bred with another but then they offspring is no longer well bred. I don't know if it's the same sort of thing either. Mel started to react towards other dogs after a few bad incidents. He was not properly socialized as a pup but he did have friends and meetings I had no clue what I was doing at that point when I look back, although I thought I did. Who knows maybe if I knew now what I didn't know then he would be a whole different dog. Getting to the 5 foot distance between dogs has been huge in his anxiety level and behaviors. But he is still messed up in the head, always will be a love him is that cause he was badly bred or because he might be a pit bull? I have changed it by not letting him get amped up. I have many things I have tried with mel. I can share if you are interested lol

yes, 1 out of 4 greyhounds will be the champion racer...well 1 out of 4 APBTs could be the champion box dog, we won't know because it's not legal. Just because one is champion material doesn't mean the others won't execute this behavior to some degree, and when you breed tight -- when creating the breed....you are increasing the chances of each dog becoming more DA.
Totally hear what you're saying but is it increasing the chances of DA or increasing the chances of understanding communication which results in reactive behavior. Though just because will fight or start a fight isn't behavior isolated to the APBT, many breeds and mixes will fight. That's not in itself breed specific right?

Who is Nick Ryan? Is he a trainer? I read that on facebook, just curious about where it comes from and what he does if you know :) Or does he just have opinions like all of us lol

I think my dogs are badass.... I also raised 2 unaltered males the exact same way. One is a popsicle the other is a psycho. I can only assume that since they both were raised in the same home with the same techniques that genetics played in with the da one..
But again that's leads to every dog is different. maybe your psycho didn't respond to same way to the methods you used? or he is just like Mel psycho but I don't think I blame the fact he might be a pit bull on him being that way lol

"As previously stated, the temperament, and behavior of the individual canine is guided by a variety interacting and changeable factors. It cannot be solely one factor, such as genetics or environment, but a mixture of interconnecting components that will ultimately provide the canine with the temperament it will have for the entirety of its life, no matter sound or unsound. When we as the handler, owners, trainers, and breeders do not look at that entire package, or simply just focus on one factor, we are then setting ourselves - and our dogs - up for failure.
that's exactly what I feel as well. Its not that genetics doesn't have a part of how your dog will turn out and with a different owner, environment, etc etc who know what might happen to the same dog.

Seems pretty iffy to me seeing how many dogs I know where well socialized, raised with other dogs, by people who are dog saavy and who are still reactive/DA. To say pit bulls aren't DA, but then claim they all are somehow social idiots with extreme pain tolerance is just as inaccurate if you ask me. I hear doggy park people complaining about boxers and labs all the time generally playing too rough/in your face for most dogs. And yet most get along with their housemates. I have 3 dogs, in varying degrees of social skills, DA, playing styles and tolerance to pain. They are all quick to amp up and redirect on each other given a reason to.
Many breeds would do the same thing, that's not an APBT trait, but lots of dogs tend to do that when over their threshold. I know a lot of dogs who have no problem with any of their housemates but plenty of issue if another dog was to run up to them they do not know.

I just think its good to think about. Thanks everyone for responding.
 

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Good post Coach, the article written by Nicholas Ryan was very good, and I agree with it.
I have had several dogs for over 3 decades and they all where treated equally with human and "if allowed" other dog socialization.I personally don't believe the apbt is necessarily always DA, I believe it can be more accurately categorized as a "combat drive" CD. But like the article pointed out each dog is an individual. I personally have never owned a cold dog, but I have owned dogs that would get along with other dogs most of the time. But I have owned one or two that their main goal in life was to engage in combat. These particular dogs where NEVER taught or encourage to do so. And there was no socializing in the world that was going to completely change that! But I have had success with the high CD dogs if raised from a puppy with a small non threatening dog, they seem to do fine with this dog only.
 
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