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Genetically dog aggressive or just bad communicators?

7K views 45 replies 14 participants last post by  KMdogs 
I'm not skeptical at all. Good find Ames.

Got my flame suit on though bc I know where this may go : ( ....(and Ames this response is NOT directed towards you in any way whatsoever.)

This mindset (not all "pit bulls" are genetically dog aggressive) has been my stance on this forum from day 1........and I've received a lot of kickback from members for it:rain:

"furmommy" "softy" or "you're doing the breed a disservice by taking your Luna to the dog park yadda yadda" I've heard it all. For reasons that are beyond me, most people want to ride the coat tail stigma of "I gotz a badd a$$ pit bull" and it does damage and is not good with other dogs so I'm gonna act like a sheep and agree with all the other bad a$$ pit bull owners about my dogs SUPER DEEP ENGRAINED DISPOSITION TO BE NOTHING BUT AN AGGRESSOR IN THE DOG REALM. It's cute, and the weak and uneducated may ride that train but I'm not buying it. Sadly, it is the individuals that are clueless on how to train or deal with their dogs that turn their dogs into social misfits. Get it? Viscous cycle here.

The fact that many are so hell-bent and obsessed with their "apbt's genetic disposition to "fight" and not get along with other dogs" is simply foolish and ignorant. In the same, one should not ignore the disposition of the apbt and the potential that can arise when dealing with your pup in any social setting. The disposition is not the end-all though (take-home message).

Nature versus nurture is no more the debate in this day and age....it is BOTH nature and nurture that shape most living organisms in life. It is the combination, and contribution, from BOTH. It is not one or the other. Dispositions are dispositions, they are not the end-all. Sigmund Freud is dead...and people should read up on him...he was a whack job. (I have my masters in Psychology)

There is a lot of extreme stance'd ignorance as it pertains to the genetics and ever-evolving temperament of the apbt. . I choose my battles now though with this specific topic as the ban stick is strong with me. :doggy:
 
Stephan there are some gamebred dogs that are just straight cold! And just love every dog they meet. Not every dog fits the mold. Its about taking the risk of having your dog attack another at a dog park without warning because that is how it usually happens. Most bully breed dogs, and especially gamebred ones do have some sort of DA at some point in their lives. It just has to be managed.
Totally agree. Especially the bolded.

However, you don't own a gamebred dog, or a dog that has shown any sort of DA and until you do, you may not "get" what we are saying.
No I do not own a game-bred dog nor to date has Luna showed DA but I do get it...I have witnessed DA and it is not a hard concept to grasp. But yes, you and others with gamebred pups and DA pups will know the intricacies more than I. The concept is not hard to understand though. :eek:

And no my dogs aren't "bad a$$" and that is not how I think of them at all. Far from it.
I definitely wouldn't include you in that category :eek: Sorry if I offended you!

I quoted this from the article you posted Coach.....as it's basically all I am trying to convey :cheers:

"As previously stated, the temperament, and behavior of the individual canine is guided by a variety interacting and changeable factors. It cannot be solely one factor, such as genetics or environment, but a mixture of interconnecting components that will ultimately provide the canine with the temperament it will have for the entirety of its life, no matter sound or unsound. When we as the handler, owners, trainers, and breeders do not look at that entire package, or simply just focus on one factor, we are then setting ourselves - and our dogs - up for failure.
 
I think my dogs are badass.... I also raised 2 unaltered males the exact same way. One is a popsicle the other is a psycho. I can only assume that since they both were raised in the same home with the same techniques that genetics played in with the da one..
Most likely. So many variables though

Exactly. You can't change a dog's temperament. I have socialized the heck out of Pyra and so did her breeder since she was born. Still didn't stop her from attacking her mom at 9 weeks old and being picky about who she likes. And Lucius, well he had no socialization till 4 months old when I got him and he still mostly loves other dogs! His "BFF" is another male dog! Lol!
Soo odd haha! That damn Lucius. He will always remain a mystery lol
 
When da and ha are known traits in the lines and the dog exhibits both upon reaching maturity its genetic... and what are the variables when I raised them both with the same techniques? Only variables are the lineage...
HA is not a known trait of the apbt...

If a bloodline is bred tight enough with a da dog then yes your percentage for said dog to display da increases. Again, genetics is only PART of the big picture.

When I say variables, I mean variables......most variables are out of one's control. Do you know for a fact every single experience those dogs had and how those dogs internalized/learned/fight or fled from it? If you say you do then we have no reason to debate here (bc I'll know you're off your rocker)(no offense)
 
Interesting read but there are many holes in article that they do not address. They are talking about an APBT who meets another dog and gets into a fight after they posture. To me that is not true dog aggression that sounds more like a reactive dog which is behavioral not genetic. Being a behaviorist and understanding what drives dogs you can see the flaw in the logic used in this article. I could get fancy and technical about what is wrong with this article but I'm far too tired! lol

So keep this in mind,
This article is someones opinion not FACT
I do not agree (what trainers do agree though lol)
Selecting dogs for certain traits over and over again genetically alters the dogs you are breeding
Instinct is not a behavior problem!
You cannot change instinctual behavior but you can learn to work around it.

Never trust a bulldog not to fight!!!!!!!

And last but not least.... This fur mommy society that is being created where you have a whole bunch of people giving opinions based off what they "feel" is right makes me sick... Dogs are very simple instinctual creatures, easy to train and learn if you use your head not your heart! sheesh!
What are your thoughts on this this statement below? Do you agree?

"As previously stated, the temperament, and behavior of the individual canine is guided by a variety interacting and changeable factors. It cannot be solely one factor, such as genetics or environment, but a mixture of interconnecting components that will ultimately provide the canine with the temperament it will have for the entirety of its life, no matter sound or unsound. When we as the handler, owners, trainers, and breeders do not look at that entire package, or simply just focus on one factor, we are then setting ourselves - and our dogs - up for failure."
 
I do agree there are many factors you look a when looking at a dog. When we temperament test you look at what are environmental issues and what is the true temperament which is the nerves of the dog, what the dog was bred to do, and other factors. They all play a part in a dog however to think DA as it applies to the APBT is an environmental or training problem and you are wrong. APBT's with selective breeding for fighting (many components to that) is instinctual not behavioral. Just like a Border collie with sheep. It is an instinct to herd sheep not training. Now DA as it applies to most other dogs is different they were not selected and bred for that trait. UGH I could sit here and talk about this forever but I run a business..... A dog training business and don't have time to get into it over the internet but some people just don't want to accept what our breed was bred to do...
Thanks!

I find the debate immensely interesting. The gentlemen who wrote the bold lives by the theory as he said until very recently. I do think its funny that learning to understand your dog is considered fur mommy behavior, I find it natural curiosity. Everyone has points from experience and opinions. Science points to both theories there is no right or wrong answer at this time. (Not referring to this article but other studies where I touched on above) Especially when dogs tossed together are not well bred dogs. Most are not bred for the fighting trait, they are bred for many many reasons and to assume they all contain the genetic traits as those for the breed was originally founded is ignorant. Each dog should be viewed and judged as an individual. The theory can help or hurt depending on who and what dogs are being trained and observed. There is the saying that the only thing 2 dogs trainers can agree on is that the third one is doing it wrong. I just want people to do what works for their dogs and that's what really matters. Thinking you can't do anything about reactiveness and just accept it is a problem and can be addressed.

Sent from Petguide.com App
Good post Ames! I bolded the statements that I really agree with and I thought were important! Personally, they sum up my stance to a T.
 
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