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Thanks for the reply, and she has brain damage diagnosed by 2 vets and they figure from inbreeding

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That is not true. "Inbreeding", known in the breeder world as line breeding, does not produce defects.

Vets do not know as much as people may think. Having known life long breeders of bloodlines, some created and built from just three different dogs, over 40 years ago, are still alive and breeding today. Tight line breeding.

My current dogs have been tight line bred for over 20 years and I will never outcross them with any other blood.
Breeding a family line of dogs keeps the genetics in a "closed circle." As a breeder the job is to eliminate any faults through selective breeding and culling.

When faults such as deafness occur, it is hereditary, from dogs being bred with genetic faults. Back yard breeding by novices who only breed for money and sell by taking advantage of people's love for puppies, are the cause of these hereditary faults in dogs.
Concerning ApBT's, the major health problems come from the all white dogs and blue dogs most of all, although I have never considered the blues to be ApBT's, as they were never pit dogs.

Although you may have thought my earlier posts were harsh, it was truly for the safety of your daughter, and for the good of the dog.
Can you really afford to pay for special training of a deaf dog?

I responded so harshly due to memories of people who ignore warnings and then an innocent victim has to suffer for it.

I've never had to deal with a deaf dog, or one with brain damage, but I have seen and heard of drastic results of inexperienced people having dogs like these.

If I had a litter of pups that had a deaf one or another serious fault, I would cull it, to save it from a life of suffering, and to prevent this fault from ever being passed on.
 

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Thanks for the reply, and she has brain damage diagnosed by 2 vets and they figure from inbreeding

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Still seems a bit weird IMO. What testing was done by the two vets to determine this? Brain damage is not something you look at and confirm. Also every dog breed was created by inbreeding. Inbreeding and line breeding is used all the time by breeders. I'm not saying it not possible I am just wondering if maybe the dog has OCD or anxiety or some other brain disorder that is treatable. Wait she is deaf? I missed that. Even being deaf doesn't mean she has brain damage. Just trying to understand.
 

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That is not true. "Inbreeding", known in the breeder world as line breeding, does not produce defects.

Vets do not know as much as people may think. Having known life long breeders of bloodlines, some created and built from just three different dogs, over 40 years ago, are still alive and breeding today. Tight line breeding.
I know I am necroposting. But just have to respond so this doesn't stand unchallenged. It is false! Inbreeding is associated with health defects. Especially defects that are hard to detect, or that shows up after a dog is old enough to be bred on. If you have inbred a line with no genetic defects, then, yes, you will get less defects. But as a general rule, inbreeding does increase genetic defects in some respects. Cheetahs (the cat) are really, really inbred. They had a severe bottle neck somewhere in history. But that purified the species, though it reduced variation greatly and caused them to be vulnerable to environmental changes. Dog aggression is due to inbreeding. By some, the process of inbreeding to spread DA is seen as purification, to others, who want the dogs in a family setting, it is often seen as defect. Deafness is commonly caused by inbreeding. And other cognitive defects too. And defects of the heart, hip etc. So, please, stop spewing bs just because you inbred with no poor outcomes. Inbreeding is the very way you breed dogs, but excessive inbreeding, or inbreeding of wrong lines, will cause issues. Vets do know what they are talking about, since they have often read biological courses on zoology, population genetics etc. Backyard breeders and other people know by "hear-say" or anecdote, often. So stop undermining professional opinion just because YOU haven't had THAT issue pop up in YOUR kennel. :woof:

:roll: Anyways, love this forum. And sorry for necro-posting :roll:
 

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I know I am necroposting. But just have to respond so this doesn't stand unchallenged. It is false! Inbreeding is associated with health defects. Especially defects that are hard to detect, or that shows up after a dog is old enough to be bred on. If you have inbred a line with no genetic defects, then, yes, you will get less defects. But as a general rule, inbreeding does increase genetic defects in some respects. Cheetahs (the cat) are really, really inbred. They had a severe bottle neck somewhere in history. But that purified the species, though it reduced variation greatly and caused them to be vulnerable to environmental changes. Dog aggression is due to inbreeding. By some, the process of inbreeding to spread DA is seen as purification, to others, who want the dogs in a family setting, it is often seen as defect. Deafness is commonly caused by inbreeding. And other cognitive defects too. And defects of the heart, hip etc. So, please, stop spewing bs just because you inbred with no poor outcomes. Inbreeding is the very way you breed dogs, but excessive inbreeding, or inbreeding of wrong lines, will cause issues. Vets do know what they are talking about, since they have often read biological courses on zoology, population genetics etc. Backyard breeders and other people know by "hear-say" or anecdote, often. So stop undermining professional opinion just because YOU haven't had THAT issue pop up in YOUR kennel. :woof:

:roll: Anyways, love this forum. And sorry for necro-posting :roll:
I'm sorry Petbawler, but you're the one who is actually wrong here. True breeders inbreed and line breed all the time, especially in some lines like my favorite the OFRN. True breeders cull their lines and litters to be rid of defects and have been very successful doing so.

The biggest thing I want to address is where you state 'dog aggression is a result of inbreeding' - this could NOT be further from the truth, especially in bulldogs. If you know anything about the breeds, you know they were originally for dog fighting and bred to bait bulls and then each other in the 'pits' hence the name "American Pit Bull Terrier" - the only TRUE 'pit bull'. DA is in their genes from their creation and cannot be bred out, even through outcrossing with other lines/breeds. It just is.

As for vets, yes they do know a lot and I trust my vet with everything; however, they don't know everything. I love my vet and trust him but when Kaos and Nala started to knuckle, he told me it was a genetic fault and could not be fixed. I found the recipe to fix the knuckling on THIS SITE and guess what? Both dogs now have nice and straight legs. My vet was wrong and when he asked me how their legs straightened, I actually taught him something I learned here. Vets are people too; some are better than others and they make mistakes; nor do they know everything.

Your last comment, defending BYB, leads me to believe that you may be a BYB yourself. I hope not, but if so, you won't find much support here for the practices of BYB's.

~Jess
 

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I'm sorry Petbawler, but you're the one who is actually wrong here. True breeders inbreed and line breed all the time, especially in some lines like my favorite the OFRN. True breeders cull their lines and litters to be rid of defects and have been very successful doing so.

The biggest thing I want to address is where you state 'dog aggression is a result of inbreeding' - this could NOT be further from the truth, especially in bulldogs. If you know anything about the breeds, you know they were originally for dog fighting and bred to bait bulls and then each other in the 'pits' hence the name "American Pit Bull Terrier" - the only TRUE 'pit bull'. DA is in their genes from their creation and cannot be bred out, even through outcrossing with other lines/breeds. It just is.

As for vets, yes they do know a lot and I trust my vet with everything; however, they don't know everything. I love my vet and trust him but when Kaos and Nala started to knuckle, he told me it was a genetic fault and could not be fixed. I found the recipe to fix the knuckling on THIS SITE and guess what? Both dogs now have nice and straight legs. My vet was wrong and when he asked me how their legs straightened, I actually taught him something I learned here. Vets are people too; some are better than others and they make mistakes; nor do they know everything.

Your last comment, defending BYB, leads me to believe that you may be a BYB yourself. I hope not, but if so, you won't find much support here for the practices of BYB's.

~Jess
You are not contradicting what I stated. I didn't say that inbreeding leads to breeding on bad dogs, I am saying that inbreeding produces a higher percentage of recessive genetic flaws. Which is obvious. I am also not saying that all inbreeding increases this. All breeds are created from inbreeding, and inbreeding comes in degrees. All dogs have higher degrees of genetic flaws than, say, wolfes. Mastiff dogs have hip problems etc. Culling is the code word. Even if only 1 in 10 puppies need to be culled for genetic flaws, the one that got culled had flaws from inbreeding. And the vet told the poster that her dog had genetically induced neurological disease. If the genetics determining these issues are recessive and rare, then, usually, they are the product of breeding on related dogs caring those genes. And since, in the dog breeding world, dogs are inbred to stabilize production of selected traits, the most natural explanation is that two dogs from the same bloodline both ended up carying a recessive gene that, by breeding them, produced a flawed litter. If the breeder is good, he/she will cull the offspring and cross out the dog with the recessive gene with a line not carrying it. But we are not disagreeing, I think. I just wanted to point out that it is false that inbreeding blood carrying recessive traits that are disabilities won't produce disabled offspring. The VET is the professional that diagnosed the condition, and hence the VET should know better than you whether or not the condition is heriditary, and whether or not it is rare and requires inbreeding to show up. And 2 vets concluded that the disorder was a recessive genetical disorder, and there is no reason to defect from that professional opinion on account of anecdotes about succesful inbreeding (which even the vets will know about, since, du-uh, hehe).

Anyways, no hard feelings. I think we agree actually.

Edit: And sure, the vet might rightly conclude that some issue is genetical, and wrongly determine that nothing can be done. Usually a vet (and any other) will go "I don't know of a clinical solution, hence it can't be fixed". Deafness can be fixed by state of the art procedures in humans. So technically, it could probably be done on dogs. But it is not done. So the vet will go "you can't fix it, it is genetical disease". But if you were a crazy scientist, you could in fact fix it. But when it comes to the doagnostics of a disorder, you have no justification for rejecting a professional opinion. When you do, you will need another professional opinion to rest on. So, yeah, here 2 vets gave a diagnosis and agreed, and both found an explanation that is plausible. But hey, MAYBE it WASN'T do to inbreeding. Maybe 2 dogs from resonably distant lines both carried the genetic markor. But: Most likely not!
 

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Thanks for the clarification! I do think we agree in most respects, now that I understand better where you were coming from.

I thoroughly enjoy constructive conversation, even conversations where people disagree but do it respectfully and constructively like adults. So certainly no hard feelings and hope I didn't make it seem like there were! :)

I just can't stand the drama and people looking for someone to wave a magic wand to "fix" their problems or people to only tell them what they want to hear. That's not how to operate, especially when dealing with strong-willed, physically capable dogs. We all adore the bulldogs here, but they are certainly not the breed for everyone. No breed is a perfect fit for everyone.

~Jess
 

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Don't worry. I am really not sensitive. I know that people often interpret forum conversations in the most negative tone possible, so just wanted to make sure you knew I was taking it all as friendly discussion - which you did :p

And yes, the very value of discussion (and thus discussion boards like this) is constructive dialogue. I know, personally, I always get itchy when I see a discussion where I have some cents to add. So I love dialogue and can handle high tides, haha.

As for magic wands - very true, very true. It is all about (1) realistic assesment of the underlying "mechanics" of a given issue, (2) assessment of the costs of leaving it be, (3) the costs of fixing (if possible) and (4) whether the costs of leaving it be outweighs the costs of doing the work needed to fix it. And then of course (5) what size of hazard the issue poses and to who (the dog? The owner? Other dogs? Other people? All of them? etc.) and deciding if that hazard is bearable to you & others, and how much it can be influenced by realistic measures. Most often, magical fixes aren't available. For a strong breed with the traits as a pitbull, realistic risk assessment and evaluation of the space of solutions is crucial for the wellbeing of everybody involved - as well as for the population in which you live AND the population of dogs known as "the breed". Critical discussion is very much at the heart of this, since knowledge resides across individuals and is transmitted via talking to each other. And only critical examination allows us to discriminate between sound and wrong judgments. So LONG LIVE CONSTRUCTIVE AND HONEST DISAGREEMENT :p:stupid: It is the BOMB! Haha

Anyways, thank you for the talk, much appreciated.
 

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Why you would keep a two year old around a dog deaf and with brain damage, especially with another dog, when they are prone to have jealous fights......
You have a dog that is best to be put down IMO. I know a guy who, years ago, had a deaf dog and it mauled his young step daughter and he lost his marriage and will be paying for countless plastic surgeries the rest of his life.

You have a dog way out of your capability to handle. That much is clear. You wouldn't be here if you had control.

GET RID OF THE DEAF DOG AND YOU WILL HAVE A MUCH BETTER LIFE AT HOME.
NOW THAT YOU KNOW THE PROBLEMS, IF ANYTHING HAPPENS TO YOUR DAUGHTER YOU WILL BE 100% TO BLAME AND SHOULD HE PROSECUTED FOR NOT TAKING HEED TO THE WARNINGS!

Some of you who come on here with these issues have no business owning dogs if you can't understand that even low quality "pitbulls" are prone to fight.
Although, from what you say, it is jealousy and possessiveness, not true prey drive, that starts it.
Fixing them will do nothing.

But your relatives you got the dog from show their stupidity by not having put down, or at least fixed, the deaf dog.
That is hereditary and you'll end up with a litter of deaf puppies with brain damage as well. Which, the best thing to do would be to cull the whole litter, to save them a life of suffering.

Smh. When the hell are people gonna listen?
Their stupidity makes them wait for tragedy.
I feel sorry for your daughter!!! She does not deserve the risk of being hurt badly of or killed, all due to her "mommy's" love for "doggies."
Grow up and do the right thing. Again, anything happens, you are 100% responsible and should be held accountable!!!
what in the world is wrong with you? You need mental help if that’s what you consider an appropriate response to someone asking for help.
 

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Hello my dogs just started fighting and are getting worse. We got Paisley when she was a puppy and Kobe we adopted her about 3months ago. They both are not spayed (yet).

Kobe is deaf and has some brain damage and was adopted from a relative of ours and her and Paisley have played numerous times and never had a problem. When we finally brought Kobe home they got along great, until about a two weeks ago.

When kobe runs her circles she does (cause her brain damage) paisley will keep going after her trying to nip at her and "play"than sometimes kobe gets annoyed and they start growling, paisley will bring a toy to her and make kobe chase her but thab when kobe trys to get a stick or toy paisley sneaks up on her to take the toy and run and they fight.

Now theyll fight over the garbage can sometimes even though its never open or food my daughter drops occasionally. They are both crate trained and when there not fighting there cuddling together

Im worried they might fight to close to my daughter which is 2 and something bad will happen please help!









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Hi, so you definitely got some worst case scenario responses and those are important to keep in mind. Here's my two sense:

1) Find a trainer who works for you and be picky. I worked with a lot of jerks who created more problems than help. My favorite is a dude named Jay Jack with a company called Next Level Dogs. He's in Maine. I skyped him because I am halfway across the country. A trainer is going to be able to help you assess the level of intent behind the fights, a strategy to avoid future fights including training, and help you learn what to do in the event another does occur.

2) Accept that management always breaks down and with a dog with some brain damage especially (but with any dog) things can and will go wrong and another fight could occur. With bull breeds especially, many of them will choose a fight a lot quicker than other dogs, and once in it, they're less likely to stop. So live your life accordingly. My dogs fight. I don't have kids. But when my nephew is around, only one dog or the other is ever out with him. When he was really little, I back-tied to furniture, used place cots, and taught him to make space from my bully, and that was more to avoid the potential concussions. Teeth are a whole other component. Muzzle train and use muzzles if you would like your dogs to be around your daughter. There are options. But just keep in mind, things can still go wrong. Once, I didn't get the crate doors latched right and got home to find my boys hanging out. Thankfully they didn't find anything worth squabbling over that day. I was dogsitting once and the dog I was watching started barking at one of my dogs....the second came over and attacked the first. Even when well integrated, things happen that can trigger a fight when you aren't ready for it.

3) Since management fails, know how to break up a fight. The trainer above has a collapsible break stick he always has in his pocket. Me, I default to choking because women's pockets don't hold shit.

My husband has a scar on his arm from getting between our two when they fought once. A kid and dogs that fight are an incredible risk. I know a woman who handles dogs who will fight with amazing skill. She is a pro at managing her dogs and lives pitbull very well.

So in your case, get some expert eyes on it. It is worth paying for some knowledge to keep your family safe. And then you can make whatever decision is manageable and safe for your family.
 
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